tbeachhead
Well-known member
I love how you call yourself a "Jew" and state openly that you believe the Torah is "myth." It isn't only Christianity that you do not know. The only rule you have is the litany of Judges...it seems right in your eyes.
What is the image of God? Is it physical?
- Thread starter Jewjitzu
- Start date
Jewjitzu
Well-known member
She knows it's false.
Jewjitzu
Well-known member
No, she's said the creation accounts are allegorical. As we've spoken about before, the earth is more than 6000 years old. You do follow the science, correct?
Jewjitzu
Well-known member
Where's the body? And, if each of your godhead is just one and not the others, then you really don't have a true God.
tbeachhead
Well-known member
What formed the earth into the shape of a man? What breathed the breath of life into the nostrils. I don't know...You are stuck with your invention. It's clear to me.
tbeachhead
Well-known member
I believe she said "myth." You're just agreeing that even the Torah is invention...and you have to make up what it means. There is nothing left of Moses in your religion. Moses never had to claim "allegory." He described creation.
tbeachhead
Well-known member
No, actually. She ran from what she cannot understand, and has proven that she does not understand the first basics of Christianity. She, like you, are forced to deny history.
And she's very lucid. She does well speaking for herself, and corroborating my claim above.
Jewjitzu
Well-known member
The spoken word. His word doesn't return void.
God.
So whose the physical male and female images in your godhead? The image must support both.
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Jewjitzu
Well-known member
I never said I believe the Torah is an invention. I think OpenHeart wouldn't have a problem with Genesis 1 and 2 being allegorical. But, after much discussion on this before, you don't have a good explanation for the universe being over 13 billion years old, and the 6 days of creation, etc.
tbeachhead
Well-known member
Ahh...So, the Word, like hands on a body, formed (yatsar) man like a potter...formed in the image and in the likeness of Elohim...As I've been saying.
The Spirit...Ruach Elohim. That's what breath does.
We've been through this before. You rejected Messiah then, do you want to become a member of His Bride today? The Female She for whom the Seed/Word is intended. There is a wedding...Love has an object. Do you think the Song of Solomon was written for entertainment? There is a woman in that song...and she is not allegorical
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tbeachhead
Well-known member
Of course not. You'd have to tackle the implications of your invention: Allegory gives you latitude to interpret "god" after your own fashion and with no likeness. An allegory can become whatever you make it out to be...and you can argue your own accuracy, because the interpretation is personal. How can you go wrong?
Of course she won't. With the parody of Christianity she invented, she'll have no problem with making any inconvenient portion of scripture "allegorical."
I don't remember any discussion, but I see even here your limited "god" is stuck with "13 billion years"...even with the discoveries being made every day. Can you explain how the "God" particle loses its locality and becomes everywhere at once? Do you understand that photons communicate in real time across the universe? God is light. "In His light we see light." That's not invention. That's the Word. Do you have a clue what the laws of physics are for superluminal matter?
God is not confined to the Laws of space and time that we have thought constant. Well...the God of Abraham isn't. Your god is very confined.
SPOKENWORD
Well-known member
She like you is deceived.
Open Heart
Well-known member
I was a well educated Christian most of my life. I began studying bible when I was 3, and began studying church history and theology in junior high. While I'm not on the level of a scholar (someone with a PhD), I'm VERY informed as to what Christian orthodoxy is, and what the various heresies are. The Christians who visit this Judaism forum all espouse what are considered various heresies, yourself included. You guys are just not mainstream Christians. To me that's not a big deal, since I disagree with Christianity in general, in any form. But it does puzzle me that this is the case.
Open Heart
Well-known member
Yes, I'm 100% Jew by conversion. Nothing I can ever do can "un-jew" me. A Jew is anyone who is born of a Jewish mom or who has converted. That's me.
Among Jews, there is a very wide range of opinions, from the ultra orthodox to Jews who are atheists. The Judaism I practice, by observance level, is part of the Conservative movement. My theology is definitely pretty liberal. But it is not unusual. I assure you that there are many religious Jews who understand that Genesis is a creation myth and not history.
For whatever its worth, there are also plenty of Christians who understand the same.
tbeachhead
Well-known member
What you have written belies your claim. When ever you post "Christian beliefs," they're a parody of Christianity, and amount to a caricature. I've pointed this out each time you make a claim to which I respond. I will continue to do so. Your "knowledge" of Christianity is woefully inadequate to allow your extravagant claims.
This is intriguing...and a great way to begin. As a teacher, I'd ask you what curriculum you were using...and I'd be interested in any denominational slant your teaching took.
This claim is a self-assessment which I've proven is at best inadequate. You do not know the basic principles of the most fundamental doctrines. I do not believe you've read the Bible from Genesis to Revelation, and if you have, you evidence only a cursory knowledge.
This is another bizarre claim...You do not know what a mainstream Christian stands for. But in fairness, I'll give you my background. I began to read the Bible through in 1970, tenth grade. I had read the Bible a couple of times through but the New Testament far more extensively, and I began to examine Greek because I picked up a Zondervan interlinear version with parallel translations., but I stopped and turned back to the flesh for the four years in college.
In 1982 the Holy Spirit called me back, and I started pursuing Jesus, the Risen One Who is calling you. As promised in Psalms, Ezekiel and Jeremiah, and throughout the NT, He undertook my instruction. I went to Seminary in 1982-83, and worked overseas on three continents, in a dozen countries, enjoying the conversations I've already described including brief jail time in Morocco for possession of subversive literature with the intent to convert Muslims...I had Bible studies that had not been distributed. I lived six months in Israel, in Nazareth, and worked among the Arabs, studying Arabic. I married a Swede in 1987, and we returned state-side to meet my mother. I was hired to teach French, and we became sedentary to raise our eight kids. For the last five years, I have made it my habit to go through the entire Bible six times a year. I don't pretend to know all, but I do know the One who inspired it, and who continues to teach me. I am very good at recognizing false claims as the one you just made. Over the years, I've pastored, led and taught. Today I drive a school bus.
What curriculum did you use when you were the "real deal"? How many times did you read the Bible from cover to cover? You see, your claims to a "mainstream" christianity only shows you've not traveled in the circles. I've participated in dozens of denominations: Episcopalian, RC, Baptist in several iterations, A/G, Pentecostal, Word of Faith, Four Square, Presbyterian, "Independent", Congregational (UCC and CCCC), Brethren, Christian and Missionary Alliance. In each of these, I found individuals, and found the common thread of which Paul spoke. I've know in my travels only One Church, and friends
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tbeachhead
Well-known member
Whatever that means. It's an invention either way, but you like it, and that's what matters in your eyes.
And Christians likewise make the claim, although you might find it infuriating. We've been grafted to the vine, and partake of the life thereof. They are not all Israel who are called "Israel", any more than they are Christian who claim to be the real deal.
Right...I've seen this, and it's certainly not a matter of the faith of Abraham, who took God at His word, and did not call "myth" or "allegory" what God affirmed to be Truth. It amounts to this: Anyone can make a claim that will stick to the level that claim is self-justified.
The claim is not the truth...It's an affirmation of feeling, nothing more. Certainly not history.
Right...well...there are plenty who make outrageous claims. I have much more respect for yours than for those who claim "Christianity" who have no clue what the claim demands.
We will all be judged for this in the end, both you and I. And much will depend on how we have treated each other, the ones Paul calls, "Those who are without."
Jewjitzu
Well-known member
The spoken word is neither hands nor a person.
It brings life.
So, you can't or won't explain who in your godhead is the male and female image? You said your gods have a physical body.
Open Heart
Well-known member
Although at age 3 my bible education was at the picture book level, my mom began reading the gospels to me at age 5, and the actual Torah from beginning to end every verse when I was seven. Those begats were very boring LOL. In junior high, I began studying theology and church history with my father, using his seminary books--I don't remember the titles or series anymore, as it was a half century ago. My father was a fundamentalist pastor with a DD (Doctor of Divinity) from Asbury Theological Seminary -- you might recall that this seminary was in the news a few weeks ago because of the revival going on there. As an adult, I read the original source documents for things like the ecumenical councils that shored up Trinitarianism and orthodox Christology etc etc.
You ask for the slant -- my earliest education was slanted towards Arminianism and the Holiness movement. However, my father would hold Socratic conversations with me, like I remember the time he asked me if one could lose their salvation and I said no, and he basically argued the Calvinist opinion with me until I changed my mind, then once I changed my mind, he flipped sides again. It was his intent that I learn to think rationally, forming my opinions based on scripture.
When I got older, and began truly forming my own opinions, to make a long story short, I rejected the Protestant reformation as illegitimate, and explored Catholic thinking and theology, resulting in becoming a Catholic at age 28.
After becoming a Catholic, although I continued my studies in Chrisitanity, I also began to add studies into the world religions. For example, I took a university course in Islamic literature and religion. I studied all the world religions, although I have to say my inquiries into Hinduism were pretty inadequate, as it is quite an exhaustive religion to study. It was during this time that I first began to study Judaism. From there, my soul was torn, going back and forth, for the next couple decades. I was converted to Judaism when I was 50.
Although I am no longer immersed in religious studies to the extent I was when younger, I do still dabble. I often attend Torah studies with my synagogue. I listen to a lot of great lectures on YouTube put out by CentrePlace, which is connected to the Community of Christ church in Canada. And just last weekend, I was studying with friends a passage from the Platform Sutra (a Ch'an Buddhist document). IOW I am basically what they call a lifelong student.
You say you are very good at spotting false claims. Your assertions about me show that you really aren't at all.
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Jewjitzu
Well-known member
No invention on my part. Why don't you explain how the big bang fits into the creation events in Genesis.
She's not the issue. Your physical god images are.
Wow? Explain it to me.
Wow. Explain it to me.
He would be if he was created as Jesus was.
Outside of time and space... He isn't. Jesus was confined and the NT confirms it. How ironic ?? Rotfl...
SPOKENWORD
Well-known member
You have still much to learn. A good start would be to be Born Again. Unless you are Born again you will not enter into Heaven. Only then will Christianity make sense to you.
Jesus Teaches Nicodemus John 3
3 Now there was a Pharisee, a man named Nicodemus who was a member of the Jewish ruling council. 2 He came to Jesus at night and said, “Rabbi, we know that you are a teacher who has come from God. For no one could perform the signs you are doing if God were not with him.”3 Jesus replied, “Very truly I tell you, no one can see the kingdom of God unless they are born again.[a]”
4 “How can someone be born when they are old?” Nicodemus asked. “Surely they cannot enter a second time into their mother’s womb to be born!”
5 Jesus answered, “Very truly I tell you, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless they are born of water and the Spirit. 6 Flesh gives birth to flesh, but the Spirit[b] gives birth to spirit. 7 You should not be surprised at my saying, ‘You[c] must be born again.’ 8 The wind blows wherever it pleases. You hear its sound, but you cannot tell where it comes from or where it is going. So it is with everyone born of the Spirit.”[d]
9 “How can this be?” Nicodemus asked.
10 “You are Israel’s teacher,” said Jesus, “and do you not understand these things? 11 Very truly I tell you, we speak of what we know, and we testify to what we have seen, but still you people do not accept our testimony. 12 I have spoken to you of earthly things and you do not believe; how then will you believe if I speak of heavenly things? 13 No one has ever gone into heaven except the one who came from heaven—the Son of Man.[e] 14 Just as Moses lifted up the snake in the wilderness, so the Son of Man must be lifted up,[f] 15 that everyone who believes may have eternal life in him.”[g]
16 For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. 17 For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him. 18 Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because they have not believed in the name of God’s one and only Son. 19 This is the verdict: Light has come into the world, but people loved darkness instead of light because their deeds were evil. 20 Everyone who does evil hates the light, and will not come into the light for fear that their deeds will be exposed. 21 But whoever lives by the truth comes into the light, so that it may be seen plainly that what they have done has been done in the sight of God.