What is the salvific effect of the Cross?

1Thess521 said:
"The reason the death of Christ does not save the non-elect is not because it isn't sufficient to save them, but simply becasue God does not will their salvation."

God's will is not required for what I said to be true:
it is still true for the synergism/free will crowd

God in His perfect omniscience infallibly knows who will and who will not accept His gift of faith.
God's wrath was not appeased for those who will end up in Hell under God's wrath.

Therefore propitiation is not made for those God is 100 % certain will not come to faith
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That doesn't sound like Five Point Calvinism to me, that sounds like more like Arminiaism---save that God's wrath for the Five Pointer is not appeased whereas for the Arminian it is--I think.

And by the way---Catholics do not subscribe to synergism. In synergistic systems, it is Faith PLUS works. For Catholics it isn't Faith PLUS works, or Faith PLUS anything. Faith and works are components of redemption; two sides of the same coin. For Catholics, we PARTICIPATE in the merits of redemption by our participation in the work of Christ. Because of this, we do merit salvation---but with the merits of Christ. If we were synergistic, we would be meriting with our own merits and adding them to that of Christ.
 
1Thess521 said:
the resurrection was after the crucifixion: correct?
The Last Supper was before the crucifixion; correct?
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Yeah, so?

I mean what? Becasue God lacks a DeLorean with a Flux Capacitor--God cannot make future realities present in Sacramental form at the Last Supper? God is limited by space and time all of a sudden?
 
romishpopishorganist said:
That doesn't sound like Five Point Calvinism to me, that sounds like more like Arminiaism---save that God's wrath for the Five Pointer is not appeased whereas for the Arminian it is--I think.
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I have clearly stated that those in Hell are under God's wrath
Therefore God's wrath was not appeased for those in Hell
IOW God's wrath was NOT propitiated for those who will end up in Hell
 
romishpopishorganist said:
The poster is a Five Pointer. I think what he means to say is that----if God had not directly willed the damnation of the non-elect, the death of Christ would save them too. The reason the death of Christ does not save the non-elect is not becasue it isn't sufficient to save them, but simply becasue God does not will their salvation.

Let's see if I am right.
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ALL mankind is damned to an eternal hell because of Adam’s sin.But God in His mercy chooses to save many. Mankind is COMMANDED to believe in Christ for salvation. People are consigned to hell for their unbelief. This is what mankind is to God:

Isaiah 40:
15Behold, the nations are as a drop in a bucket,
And are counted as the small dust on the scales;
Look, He lifts up the isles as a very little thing.
16And Lebanon is not sufficient to burn,
Nor its beasts sufficient for a burnt offering.

22It is He who sits above the circle of the earth,
And its inhabitants are like grasshoppers,
Who stretches out the heavens like a curtain,
And spreads them out like a tent to dwell in.

23He brings the princes to nothing;
He makes the judges of the earth useless.

Until a person comes to grips with the sovereignty of God, nothing will make sense. Who is man that He should question God and His ways. It seems you have fashioned yourself a God in the image of man. Won't work!
 
romishpopishorganist said:
The poster is a Five Pointer. I think what he means to say is that----if God had not directly willed the damnation of the non-elect, the death of Christ would save them too. The reason the death of Christ does not save the non-elect is not becasue it isn't sufficient to save them, but simply becasue God does not will their salvation.

Let's see if I am right.
Click to expand...
 
bluedog1us said:
ALL mankind is damned to an eternal hell because of Adam’s sin.But God in His mercy chooses to save many. Mankind is COMMANDED to believe in Christ for salvation. People are consigned to hell for their unbelief. This is what mankind is to God:

Isaiah 40:
15Behold, the nations are as a drop in a bucket,
And are counted as the small dust on the scales;
Look, He lifts up the isles as a very little thing.
16And Lebanon is not sufficient to burn,
Nor its beasts sufficient for a burnt offering.

22It is He who sits above the circle of the earth,
And its inhabitants are like grasshoppers,
Who stretches out the heavens like a curtain,
And spreads them out like a tent to dwell in.

23He brings the princes to nothing;
He makes the judges of the earth useless.

Until a person comes to grips with the sovereignty of God, nothing will make sense. Who is man that He should question God and His ways. It seems you have fashioned yourself a God in the image of man. Won't work!
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ALL mankind is damned to an eternal hell because of Adam’s sin.
Click to expand...

But Paul says, "just as he chose us in Christ before the foundation of the world to be holy and blameless before him in love."

Scripture says that we were chosen in Christ before the foundation of the world. It is like God knew everything even before creation itself.
 
romishpopishorganist said:
Yeah, so?

I mean what? Becasue God lacks a DeLorean with a Flux Capacitor--God cannot make future realities present in Sacramental form at the Last Supper? God is limited by space and time all of a sudden?
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It is not a question of what He can or can't do. It is a question of what He DID do, and WHEN he did it. And according to scripture He did it on the cross.
 
dingoling. said:
But Paul says, "just as he chose us in Christ before the foundation of the world to be holy and blameless before him in love."

Scripture says that we were chosen in Christ before the foundation of the world. It is like God knew everything even before creation itself.
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He knew it because He DECREED it (ordained it) to happened.
 
dingoling. said:
One of the few things they have in common is their distain of the CC.
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No we have a lot in common, being followers of Jesus for a start. We do not disdain the ROMAN cc. We do not accept the false teachings/doctrines, false claims of your institution. No RCC has proved that we are wrong and that their beliefs are right. We point out the flaws in your beliefs and the evidence that reveals the claims of the RCC are false. RCs do not like the truth about their institution being revealed. Maybe the one thing they have in common is their disdain for the truth?

You had to go to the poor me, they are all against me because I belong to the true church, That alone is another false belief.
 
dingoling. said:
- and the blood that Jesus shed on the cross was at the Last Supper in a sacramental form. The wine was his blood of the covenant, it was/is not symbolic.
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So God was just being cruel when He sent His son to the cross? Where was the love in that action? You have failed post after post to prove it was the real blood at the Last Supper.
 
dingoling. said:
Not the wine that Jesus blessed and gave to his disciples. He called it his blood of the covenant. The blood of the covenant cannot be symbolic.
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So Jesus had no ability to prophesize about what was going to happen, according to RCs? He was unable to tell them how He wanted what He was going to do commenorated.
 
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