Avoidance once again. We all know God rejected it but it wasn't what he offered that was the problem. You for all the times you supposedly read the bible missed the main point of that scene. That is sad. Reading without understanding is a waste of time.
What is the salvific effect of the Cross?
- Thread starter 1Thess521
- Start date
NO we don't all believe. Stop speaking for others.
Bonnie
Super Member
According to at least one Catholic on here, a certain word or words MUST be found in a teaching in the Bible before he or she will believe it.
Double standard, anyone?
dingoling.
Well-known member
I read with understanding that is why I am a Catholic.
You have failed to show why Cain's sacrifice was rejected, so I will hand onto my opinion and why I believe you are an ROMAN c.
romishpopishorganist
Well-known member
Actually--I think he is correct.
You see, Bonnie, when Christ offered himself on the cross, he did so in his EARTHLY flesh. The Cross was a perfect as it could be----in EARTHLY flesh. In other words----because it was offered in EARTHLY flesh, it was time bound. The Cross is an earthly projection of the kind of love the Son has for the Father. It is an earthly projection of the Son's life----in eternity. The sacrifice of love didn't begin on the Cross, and it did not end on the Cross. What ended on the cross was the earthly life of Christ; the earthly projection of Christ's love for the Father. What ended is Christ's suffering and death; not the Sacrifice. The Sacrifice is eternal.
The Resurrection perfects the Cross--that is--glorifies it. The Resurrection is what allows the sacrifice to become timeless--not bound by space and time. It is what makes the Mass and Sacraments possible. The Resurrection is the cross, Bonnie; it is not something other than the Cross. The Resurrection is the Cross perfected.
So I agree with him.
romishpopishorganist
Well-known member
Only to you who cannot think beyond one dimension.
The sacrifices are ONE in the sense that God is ONE yet three.
If you give up the Nominalism in which Protestantism is steeped you might understand more about the ONE vs. Many.
An analogy. But through the liturgical, ceremonial action--the sacrifice is made present to us.
That he did.
Yes, that sacrifice is ONE. It does not follow it is numerically one.
The earthly presentation is what is never to be repeated. The Sacrifice on the other hand is eternal.
Yes it is Sacramental! That is the point: it is a different presentation of the ONE and eternal sacrifice.
What?! Is there any other definition of "one" than a numerical (mathematical) definition?
Bonnie
Super Member
No, you read into the Bible what your church WANTS you to read into the Bible, rather than taking off your a priori Catholic spectacles and reading the Bible anew, as if it had something to say to you, as a child might read it, for the first time. Just regurgitating talking points from your church isn't the same thing as reading the Bible "with understanding."
Bonnie
Super Member
Nonsense.
God's three in oneness has nothing to do with the Eucharist. The Bible didn't say Jesus' sacrifice was "one" but that He sacrificed Himself ONCE. ONE TIME.
I understand just fine.
I agree. But the priest still raises up the wafer and prays that "this sacrifice" will be acceptable to God. Ergo, resacrificing Jesus again in the Eucharist. The NT makes it abundantly clear that Jesus sacrificed Himself ONCE for ALL time.
Good. He sacrificed Himself ONCE, which is biblical.
No, the sacrifice was ONCE. NO need to be repeated, since that one sacrifice was perfect and need never be repeated.
The sacrifice of Jesus ONCE on the cross does indeed apply to all, past, present, and future.
I agree, but then, if it is so eternal, then why does the priest every Mass hold up the wafer and pray that this "sacrifice" is acceptable to God? God accepted Jesus' one and only sacrifice on the cross, didn't He?
dingoling.
Well-known member
How is that different from you and your church?
1Thess521
Well-known member
we go verse by verse , point/ counterpoint , through the whole council of Scripture.
ALWAYS with the knowledge that Scripture cannot contradict Scripture
When a passage can be interpreted in different ways: (i.e. figurative of literal)
the interpretation that contradicts other Scriptures; must be in error.
Bonnie
Super Member
What Thess answered in post no. 252 goes for me, as well.
Bonnie
Super Member
Good answer. And exactly what we do in our church. Thanks.
dingoling.
Well-known member
I was a nCCs for over 25 years when I was reading the Bible. As a Catholic going up I had never read the Bible. So to say I was reading it through the glasses of the CC is completely wrong. It was when I read through the CCC and check out their teachings with scripture, like a Berean Christian, that I saw that the CC was correct.
romishpopishorganist
Well-known member
Again, how is this different from any other sect?
1Thess521
Well-known member
other sects ignore Scriptures they don't like
other sects run away from challenges
other sects divert , derail, and avoid answering follow up questions
other sects refuse to discuss the presuppositions and implications of the beliefs
other sects appeal to their own sect as their highest authority
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Genesis 3:7
And the eyes of them both were opened,
and they knew that they were naked;
and they sewed fig leaves together,
and made themselves aprons.
if you noticed,
in the Garden, there was only ""ONE""" Tree
they were forbidden to eat of
And the Lord God commanded the man, saying
Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat:
17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil,
thou shalt not eat of it:
for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.
..
We may eat of the fruit of the trees of the garden:
3 But of the fruit of the tree which is in the midst of the garden,
God hath said, Ye shall not eat of it, neither shall ye touch it, lest ye die
Genesis 3:7
And the eyes of them both were opened,
and they knew that they were naked;
and they sewed fig leaves together,
and made themselves aprons.
----------vs-------------
Unto Adam also and to his wife did the Lord God
make coats of skins, and clothed them.
The CCC of Rome
Fig Leaves, to hid behind
And the eyes of them both were opened,
and they knew that they were naked;
and they sewed fig leaves together,
and made themselves aprons.
======================== end ding post
I am sought of them that asked not for me;
I am found of them that sought me not:
I said, Behold me, behold me,
unto a nation that was not called by my name.
2 I have spread out my hands all the day unto a rebellious people,
which walketh in a way that was not good, after their own thoughts;
3 A people that provoketh me to anger continually to my face;
that sacrificeth in gardens, and burneth incense
I am found of them that sought me not:
I said, Behold me, behold me,
unto a nation that was not called by my name.
2 I have spread out my hands all the day unto a rebellious people,
which walketh in a way that was not good, after their own thoughts;
3 A people that provoketh me to anger continually to my face;
that sacrificeth in gardens, and burneth incense
upon altars of brick;
..
But ye are they that forsake the Lord,
that forget my holy mountain,
that prepare a table for that troop,
and that furnish the drink offering unto that number.
12 Therefore will I number you to the sword,
and ye shall all bow down to the slaughter:
because when I called, ye did not answer;
when I spake, ye did not hear;
but did evil before mine eyes,
and did choose that wherein I delighted not.
........
I also will choose their delusions, and will bring their fears upon them;
because when I called, none did answer;
when I spake, they did not hear:
but they did evil before mine eyes,
and chose that in which I delighted not.
..
For by fire and by his sword will the Lord plead with all flesh:
and the slain of the Lord shall be many.
..
But ye are they that forsake the Lord,
that forget my holy mountain,
that prepare a table for that troop,
and that furnish the drink offering unto that number.
12 Therefore will I number you to the sword,
and ye shall all bow down to the slaughter:
because when I called, ye did not answer;
when I spake, ye did not hear;
but did evil before mine eyes,
and did choose that wherein I delighted not.
........
I also will choose their delusions, and will bring their fears upon them;
because when I called, none did answer;
when I spake, they did not hear:
but they did evil before mine eyes,
and chose that in which I delighted not.
..
For by fire and by his sword will the Lord plead with all flesh:
and the slain of the Lord shall be many.
if you noticed,
in the Garden, there was only ""ONE""" Tree
they were forbidden to eat of
And the Lord God commanded the man, saying
Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat:
17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil,
thou shalt not eat of it:
for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.
..
We may eat of the fruit of the trees of the garden:
3 But of the fruit of the tree which is in the midst of the garden,
God hath said, Ye shall not eat of it, neither shall ye touch it, lest ye die
17 They that sanctify themselves,
and purify themselves in the gardens behind one tree in the midst,
eating swine's flesh, and the abomination, and the mouse,
shall be consumed together, saith the Lord.
and purify themselves in the gardens behind one tree in the midst,
eating swine's flesh, and the abomination, and the mouse,
shall be consumed together, saith the Lord.
Genesis 3:7
And the eyes of them both were opened,
and they knew that they were naked;
and they sewed fig leaves together,
and made themselves aprons.
----------vs-------------
Unto Adam also and to his wife did the Lord God
make coats of skins, and clothed them.
The CCC of Rome
Fig Leaves, to hid behind
dingoling.
Well-known member
Whatever your tradition teaches you.
and ding says
Whatever your tradition teaches you.
Hebrews 12
mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God,
the heavenly Jerusalem,
and to an innumerable company of angels,
23 To the general assembly and church of the firstborn,
which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all,
and to the spirits of just men made perfect,
24 And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant,
and to the blood of sprinkling,
that speaketh better things than that of Abel.
Whatever your tradition teaches you.
====================================
Hebrews 12
mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God,
the heavenly Jerusalem,
and to an innumerable company of angels,
23 To the general assembly and church of the firstborn,
which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all,
and to the spirits of just men made perfect,
24 And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant,
and to the blood of sprinkling,
that speaketh better things than that of Abel.