What is the salvific effect of the Cross?

[RayneBeau]

Jesus said He would not DRINK the FRUIT OF THE VINE AGAIN until He drinks it new in His Father's Kingdom. He did NOT say He would not drink His blood again until He drank it new in His Father's kingdom--did He? And this was AFTER He had blessed the wine and told His disciples to drink of the cup.

Another good post Bonnie!
Mark 14:25 reads: "I tell you this never again shall I drink from the fruit of the vine until that day when I drink it new in the kingdom of God." When Jesus calls the wine, fruit of the vine, after the point at which, according to RCC doctine, it should no longer have been' fruit of the vine', but should have been completely transformed into the blood of Christ. If it had already been literally changed into blood, would Jesus not have called it blood instead of fruit of the vine? He also said, I am the door. Did He not mean that it is through Him that we can enter heaven, rather than that the substance of His body had been changed into wood?"

 

[Bonnie]

what is the gift but the grace for one to believe in Christ and to suffer like Him.

the bible says, eph2: 8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: [9] Not of works, lest any man should boast.

Grace is what saves us, not faith nor works.

Wrong--it is grace THROUGH faith in Jesus Christ that saves us. They are two sides of the same coin. Remember what Jesus told the woman who came to Him at Simon the Pharisee's house? In Luke 7:50? "Your FAITH has saved you; go in peace."

One cannot do anything without the free gift of God's grace
It is the grace of God that moves us to believe and repent.

No problem here. But no one feels the need to repent until and unless one has faith worked in one's heart by the HS through hearing or reading of the Gospel message.

 

[ramcam2]

Wrong--it is grace THROUGH faith in Jesus Christ that saves us. They are two sides of the same coin. Remember what Jesus told the woman who came to Him at Simon the Pharisee's house? In Luke 7:50? "Your FAITH has saved you; go in peace."

No problem here. But no one feels the need to repent until and unless one has faith worked in one's heart by the HS through hearing or reading of the Gospel message.

faith like good works play a role in our salavation but it is not faith nor good works that saves us but the grace of God. just because the passage speaks about faith, it does not follow that it is talking about faith ALONE. there are also passages that speaks about works like Matt. 25:31-46 but it does not follow that works save us. it is still grace of God and man must respond by faith or good works.

 

[Bonnie]

faith like good works play a role in our salavation but it is not faith nor good works that saves us but the grace of God. just because the passage speaks about faith, it does not follow that it is talking about faith ALONE.

Except nowhere did Jesus add anything else to what He told the woman had saved her--did He?

And as I stated, faith and grace are two sides of the same coin. Both are the gifts of God.

there are also passages that speaks about works like Matt. 25:31-46 but it does not follow that works save us. it is still grace of God and man must respond by faith or good works.

But Jesus still told the woman that her faith had saved her. And faith is still the gift of God.

 

[Bonnie]

Another good post Bonnie!
Mark 14:25 reads: "I tell you this never again shall I drink from the fruit of the vine until that day when I drink it new in the kingdom of God." When Jesus calls the wine, fruit of the vine, after the point at which, according to RCC doctine, it should no longer have been' fruit of the vine', but should have been completely transformed into the blood of Christ. If it had already been literally changed into blood, would Jesus not have called it blood instead of fruit of the vine? He also said, I am the door. Did He not mean that it is through Him that we can enter heaven, rather than that the substance of His body had been changed into wood?"

As a Lutheran, I do believe in the Real Presence in, with, and under the bread and wine. But I also believe that the Elements are still bread and wine, and I proved it with these verses, where Jesus refers to the contents of the cup as the/this "FRUIT of the vine" AFTER telling His disciples to drink from it. Ergo, it is both wine and Jesus' blood at the same time. And by extension, the bread after consecration is Jesus' body but also still bread. For us it is not symbolic or a figure of speech.

Unlike Catholicism, which feels the need to overly explain things, we just accept it as a joyful mystery and leave it at that. We don't need some foolish "accident" explanation to attempt to explain what is actually unexplainable.

I won't go further with this as it would rightly belong more on the Lutheran board, but I just wanted to make my beliefs clear on here.

 

[ramcam2]

Except nowhere did Jesus add anything else to what He told the woman had saved her--did He?

And as I stated, faith and grace are two sides of the same coin. Both are the gifts of God.

But Jesus still told the woman that her faith had saved her. And faith is still the gift of God.

Salvation is by God's grace alone. It is by God's grace that we can be saved, that we can have faith, and that we can do good works.
As catholics, we agree that we are saved by the grace of God through faith, either through our faith as adults or the faith of our parents when we were baptized as infants. we do not believe in 'faith alone' because after eph2: 8-9. we continue to v10. we also believe that good works play a role because salvation is a process.

From the council of Trent... “We are therefore said to be justified by faith, because faith is the beginning of human salvation, the foundation and root of all justification, without which it is impossible to please God...we are therefore said to be justified gratuitously, because none of those things that precede justification, whether faith or works, merit the grace of justification.”
Here’s another... “If anyone shall say that man can be justified before God by his own works which are done either by his own natural powers, or through the teaching of the Law, and without divine grace through Christ Jesus: let him be anathema.”

The woman was given a free gift of salvation but since salvation is a process (2 Cor 3:18), she can increase or decrease the initial justification depending of her response to the works the were prepared for her beforehand. She was given the gift of salvation because of her faith (eph2: 8-9) but if she does not open it and put it to action (v10), she will lose it (matt7: 21). this is all in the bible.

 

[Atemi]

she can increase or decrease the initial justification depending of her response to the works the were prepared for her beforehand.

There are no degrees of justification before God.

There are no Christ followers who only have a mild case of justification, and there are no Christ followers with super duper justification before God.

You are either justified before God...or not.

She was given the gift of salvation because of her faith (eph2: 8-9) but if she does not open it and put it to action (v10), she will lose it (matt7: 21).

How much actions stops a Catholic from losing their salvation?

If you died this very hour, have you put it into enough action to have merited eternal life because of such holiness?

 

[ramcam2]

As a Lutheran, I do believe in the Real Presence in, with, and under the bread and wine. But I also believe that the Elements are still bread and wine, and I proved it with these verses, where Jesus refers to the contents of the cup as the/this "FRUIT of the vine" AFTER telling His disciples to drink from it. Ergo, it is both wine and Jesus' blood at the same time. And by extension, the bread after consecration is Jesus' body but also still bread. For us it is not symbolic or a figure of speech.
i
Unlike Catholicism, which feels the need to overly explain things, we just accept it as a joyful mystery and leave it at that. We don't need some foolish "accident" explanation to attempt to explain what is actually unexplainable.

I won't go further with this as it would rightly belong more on the Lutheran board, but I just wanted to make my beliefs clear on here.

i would not go into a discussion if this was before or after the consecration.
Lutherans do not believe in the ministerial priesthood (correct me i am wrong) thus breaking the apostolic succession. this makes the consecration invalid.
but, it is still a real encounter with Jesus when one receive his body and blood in a spiritual manner but not in a full sacramental manner as Jesus intended and wants us to experience.

 

[Atemi]

nt

 

[balshan]

i would not go into a discussion if this was before or after the consecration.
Lutherans do not believe in the ministerial priesthood (correct me i am wrong) thus breaking the apostolic succession. this makes the consecration invalid.
but, it is still a real encounter with Jesus when one receive his body and blood in a spiritual manner but not in a full sacramental manner as Jesus intended and wants us to experience.

You have no apostolic succession. It shows in the fact that your leaders do not teach what the apostles taught, or act like the apostles they cannot even pray like the apostles.

 

[ramcam2]

There are no degrees of justification before God.

There are no Christ followers who only have a mild case of justification, and there are no Christ followers with super duper justification before God.

You are either justified before God...or not.

it is not the concept of a certain amount of justification as you seem to infer. what catholics meant is we believe that one cannot just profess faith once and then be eternally secure as it were. it is not just faith ALONE which is not in the bible. one must live out this faith by a life of obedience and good works.

How much actions stops a Catholic from losing their salvation?

If you died this very hour, have you put it into enough action to have merited eternal life because of such holiness?

who, in his right mind can make a sure, positive answer to that?
our entire life should be a pursuit of the holiness that Christ gained for us by his death on the cross. this is what God wishes for all of us (heb 12: 10-14). hopefully I have done it but there is no complete assurance.
it is not once saved, always saved.

 

[balshan]

it is not the concept of a certain amount of justification as you seem to infer. what catholics meant is we believe that one cannot just profess faith once and then be eternally secure as it were. it is not just faith ALONE which is not in the bible. one must live out this faith by a life of obedience and good works.

who, in his right mind can make a sure, positive answer to that?
our entire life should be a pursuit of the holiness that Christ gained for us by his death on the cross. this is what God wishes for all of us (heb 12: 10-14). hopefully I have done it but there is no complete assurance.
it is not once saved, always saved.

Oh RCs like a foot in both camps. I mean let us be honest they are all about being perfect through works when it suits and then when it comes to defending their leaders they are all about all are sinners.

Oh give me a break it is RCs who have the get out of jail card for their sins, they have introduced confessions, penance, last rites, purgatory, Mary etc.

 

[Atemi]

There are no degrees of justification before God.

There are no Christ followers who only have a mild case of justification, and there are no Christ followers with super duper justification before God.

You are either justified before God...or not.

it is not the concept of a certain amount of justification as you seem to infer.

You are the one who claimed justification can be "decreased or increased" and then even "lose it."

By definition, that explicitly argues for a certain amount. That is your claim.

one must live out this faith by a life of obedience and good works.

A certain amount again?

How much actions stops a Catholic from losing their salvation?

If you died this very hour, have you put it into enough action to have merited eternal life because of such holiness?

who, in his right mind can make a sure, positive answer to that?

So you talk about living a life of obedience and good works....but you are clueless if you are actually living such a life.

My goodness.

You don't know if you are saved and you don't know how to be saved. Even after a lifetime of Roman Catholicism, you believe you still may go to Hell forever anyway.

There is no good news anywhere in that.

 

[RiJoRi]

So you talk about living a life of obedience and good works....but you are clueless if you are actually living such a life.

My goodness.

You don't know if you are saved and you don't know how to be saved. Even after a lifetime of Roman Catholicism, you believe you still may go to Hell forever anyway.

There is no good news anywhere in that.

No, no good news at all. What's worse, the sheep are being fleeced – both spiritually and financially – and they don't even realize it. ?

--Rich

 

[Buzzard]

Ahhh, just a "Shearing the Sheep"
too cloth the Priesthood

No, no good news at all. What's worse, the sheep are being fleeced – both spiritually and financially – and they don't even realize it. ?

--Rich

Moses; posters; Moses

the garmets of the sons of Levi were to be made of
"Pure Linen" woven by themselves
not bought from the Merchants

and "NO WOOL" in any of their robes
sheep or high $$$$$$$ mohair

You do not "Shear the Flock" to cloth the Priesthood

as Paul says;
I have taken no mans gold;

 

[ramcam2]

You are the one who claimed justification can be "decreased or increased" and then even "lose it."

By definition, that explicitly argues for a certain amount. That is your claim.




A certain amount again?

i am arguing against the unbiblical doctrine of once saved, always saved/ absolute assurance of salvation.

So you talk about living a life of obedience and good works....but you are clueless if you are actually living such a life.

My goodness.

You don't know if you are saved and you don't know how to be saved. Even after a lifetime of Roman Catholicism, you believe you still may go to Hell forever anyway.

There is no good news anywhere in that.

who said i am clueless?
God is the one who does the judging. Because God did not take away man's freewill, at any moment man can turn away from God. if one turns away from Him, is one still saved? I believe in God and i have done my best to do his will in my life and by his grace and mercy, i hope to be saved.

Matthew 7:21, "Not every one who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven,"

 

[Buzzard]

edit

 

[Atemi]

You are the one who claimed justification can be "decreased or increased" and then even "lose it."

By definition, that explicitly argues for a certain amount. That is your claim.

A certain amount again?

i am arguing against the unbiblical doctrine of once saved, always saved/ absolute assurance of salvation.

That may be, but I am talking about what you actually claimed and posted.

So you talk about living a life of obedience and good works....but you are clueless if you are actually living such a life.

My goodness.

You don't know if you are saved and you don't know how to be saved. Even after a lifetime of Roman Catholicism, you believe you still may go to Hell forever anyway.

There is no good news anywhere in that.

who said i am clueless?

You don't know.

Ignorance.

This is your own claim. I'm just taking you at your word.

God is the one who does the judging.

You can't blame God for your own ignorance.

I believe in God and i have done my best to do his will

You have done your "best"? You could not have done any better?

Any and all sins you commit, you had no other option but to sin? They were not your fault?

Lord have mercy.

It's OK, ram. Most devout Catholics I talk to also claim they do their "best." No greater delusion for a sinner to maintain.

i hope to be saved.

That is what I said: you don't know if you are saved and you don't know how to be saved.

If you knew how, you surely would have gotten around to doing it by now, right?...with all those sacraments and all.

 

[ramcam2]

That may be, but I am talking about what you actually claimed and posted.




You don't know.

Ignorance.

This is your own claim. I'm just taking you at your word.



You can't blame God for your own ignorance.



You have done your "best"? You could not have done any better?

Any and all sins you commit, you had no other option but to sin? They were not your fault?

Lord have mercy.

It's OK, ram. Most devout Catholics I talk to also claim they do their "best." No greater delusion for a sinner to maintain.





That is what I said: you don't know if you are saved and you don't know how to be saved.

If you knew how, you surely would have gotten around to doing it by now, right?...with all those sacraments and all.

As catholics our initial justification is in the sacrament of baptsm and as adults we set to do the works God has prepared for us beforehang (eph2: 10). these works do not justify us since we were already justified in baptism but they can make us holier. this is what it means to increase your justification. the bible supports this, we increase in justification/increase in glory (2 Cor 3:18).
just as we can increase our justification/increase in glory, we can also decrease our justification. thie is done if we do not do the works in eph2: 10. examples of these works are in matt25: 35-44; rom2: 6-7; matt6: 14-15; john6: 51-58; luke9: 23...

since you say i am delusional for doing my best, let me ask you.... does Christ forgive your UNREPENTED sins?

 

[1Thess521]

As catholics our initial justification is in the sacrament of baptsm and as adults we set to do the works God has prepared for us beforehang (eph2: 10). these works do not justify us since we were already justified in baptism but they can make us holier. this is what it means to increase your justification. the bible supports this, we increase in justification/increase in glory (2 Cor 3:18).
just as we can increase our justification/increase in glory, we can also decrease our justification. thie is done if we do not do the works in eph2: 10. examples of these works are in matt25: 35-44; rom2: 6-7; matt6: 14-15; john6: 51-58; luke9: 23...

since you say i am delusional for doing my best, let me ask you.... does Christ forgive your UNREPENTED sins?

is our "initial justification" in the sacrament of baptism with or without the faith of the baptized?

IOW: is "initial justification" apart from the faith of the baptized?