nope: we are saved when we believeUm, you didn't answer the question. And here you go again with wrath. I have to give it to you Protestants--you sure love wrath. If you people love wrath so much, why do you hate crucifixes? I would think you would LOVE them!
You seem to think that the Cross event is the exact and precise moment where we are saved. You keep obsessing over the point that there has to be an exact and precise moment in time when we are saved.
Because that is not when God poured out His wrath on Christ:If it was just a matter of shedding blood---why was anything else in the life of Christ even necessary? Why not just sacrifice Jesus as a child and be done with it? Heck---he could have been sacrificed along with the infants when Herod slaughtered the infants under 2. Blood would have been shed, redemption done with.
Such as?He came to destroy the works of the devil.
CHuckle!!! Nobody was killed at the last supper, there was NO SIN OFFERING MADE., and no new covenant ratified.Catholics,
In regards to propitiation, the New Covent going into effect: and our sins being paid,
what took place on the Cross that did not take place at the Last Supper?
Except that Jesus said the contents of the cup was his blood of the covenant that is poured out for many for the forgiveness of sins.CHuckle!!! Nobody was killed at the last supper, there was NO SIN OFFERING MADE., and no new covenant ratified.
No we are not told to follow this view or that. We can follow God's word. God's word is simple in the bulk of scripture to understand, God is clear it is the light under our feet, it is not over the seas or up in the skies, it is truth. God has made His word accessible for all to understand.The nCCs are not man's interpretation of scripture?
You question was answered.You didn't answer my question.
So you think you will still be eating Jesus for remembrance, even though He is with you???Yes, we stop remembering because he is with us. It doesn't say that the Eucharist stops.
No that was not clear in your repetitive posts putting down others. Redemption is clearly linear - it is a straight line from genesis to the resurrection and Jesus is still saving souls. But without the cross which is in the line, you would have nothing at all. Without the once for all time sin sacrifice of the spotless lamb you have nothing at all.You know, my point was simply that we cannot pin down the precise moment or event when redemption happened----becasue---redemption is not linear.
Everything in Christ and His life is redemptive.
Symbolically, please show us where Jesus cut Himself and poured His blood into that cup, please show the evidence of the wine changing into blood, the taste did not change. Whenever there is a physical change there is evidence at the Last Supper nothing, no evidence. Also Jesus would not allow His disciples to break the commandment not to consume blood which was clearly reiterated at the Jerusalem council. Following your logic where did Jesus say He was speaking literally in these verses.Except that Jesus said the contents of the cup was his blood of the covenant that is poured out for many for the forgiveness of sins.
Right: so everything that came before and after the cross is irrelevant. All that matters is the cross when God poured out His "wrath" on the Son.nope: we are saved when we believe
Because that is not when God poured out His wrath on Christ:
Jesus didn't cut his finger and pour his blood into the cup becasue the presence of Christ in the Eucharist is SACRAMENTAL--that is---it is Christ---the one and the same Christ---just not presented in a bloody or fleshy manner.Symbolically, please show us where Jesus cut Himself and poured His blood into that cup, please show the evidence of the wine changing into blood, the taste did not change. Whenever there is a physical change there is evidence at the Last Supper nothing, no evidence. Also Jesus would not allow His disciples to break the commandment not to consume blood which was clearly reiterated at the Jerusalem council. Following your logic where did Jesus say He was speaking literally in these verses.
Except He offered Himself ONCE for all time. He died on the cross ONCE for all time. He is not continually on the cross.See, you attempt to pigeonhole redemption to one singular event--and I simply do not think that can be done. For starters, if redemption was all about the Cross and nothing more---was everything that happened before that even superfluous? In other words---the life of Christ was only about getting to the Cross?
I believe the circle analogy is most correct. The Gospel of John in particular often presents redemption as an already, and not yet reality--at one and the same time. Scripture scholars use a fancy word for this: "Proleptic." In other words--the New Covenant is a reality that is already present, but is also not yet present.
The entirety of the earthly life of Christ redeems and inaugurates the new Covenant, not just the cross. The Cross is the most important singular event in salvation history, sure. That I would agree with. But it does not follow that redemption can be pigeonholed to the Cross.
But I can understand why you are so obsessed with wanting redemption to be reduced to one singular event on the Cross. You need it to be that way---so you can continue to dismiss the Last Supper as merely symbolic.
Correct; but it does not follow Christ ceased to be the offering.
No evidence of Christ being in the communion at all. No evidence of said change. Sccripture clearly showed evidence when there are changes. You have nothing at all.Jesus didn't cut his finger and pour his blood into the cup becasue the presence of Christ in the Eucharist is SACRAMENTAL--that is---it is Christ---the one and the same Christ---just not presented in a bloody or fleshy manner.
you can stop your mischaracterizations:Right: so everything that came before and after the cross is irrelevant. All that matters is the cross when God poured out His "wrath" on the Son.
For redemption, YES! By His death provided salvation for His people, forgave sins of His people, and a propitiation for His people. NONE of these happened before the cross. The cross is the focal point of the scarlet thread of redemption. It is the focal point for all mankind, from Adam to the last person on earth!Right: so everything that came before and after the cross is irrelevant. All that matters is the cross when God poured out His "wrath" on the Son.
Why isn't everyone saved then?you can stop your mischaracterizations:
Propitiation ONLY happened on the Cross with the death of Christ
The NC went into effect ONLY on the Cross with the death of Christ
The penalty of sin was paid ONLY on the Cross with the death of Christ
BECAUSE even though Christ's death was sufficient for all it was only effective for the ElectWhy isn't everyone saved then?
You need to ask this question?Why isn't everyone saved then?
Why is anyone saved?Why isn't everyone saved then?