What is the Scriptural case to reject Jesus Christ as Messiah?

christ_undivided

Well-known member
I know it is common practice in Judaism to reject the claim made in Christianity of Jesus Christ being the promised Heir of Abraham. Messiah.

I would like to review the claims made by modern Judaism as to exactly why Jesus Christ couldn't possibly have been the promised Heir and Messiah.

Before we begin. I know Judaism does not recognize the NT as being canonical. However, this doesn't change the fact that the NT writers referenced the OT when they made they're comments. Their arguments are valid interpretations of the OT. I will not be asking you to accept the canonical position of the NT. However, I do insist that you deal with the claims of the authors as they reference the OT. These are the same arguments the NT writers made to their reading while never claiming what they wrote was Inspired. They simply claimed their arguments were true to the OT Scriptures. So please do not try to reject valid arguments solely based upon rejecting their writings as being Inspired. After all, you're claiming to be true to the Scriptures yourselves without feeling any need to claim Divine Inspiration.

Thanks
 
I know it is common practice in Judaism to reject the claim made in Christianity of Jesus Christ being the promised Heir of Abraham. Messiah.

I would like to review the claims made by modern Judaism as to exactly why Jesus Christ couldn't possibly have been the promised Heir and Messiah.

Before we begin. I know Judaism does not recognize the NT as being canonical. However, this doesn't change the fact that the NT writers referenced the OT when they made they're comments. Their arguments are valid interpretations of the OT. I will not be asking you to accept the canonical position of the NT. However, I do insist that you deal with the claims of the authors as they reference the OT. These are the same arguments the NT writers made to their reading while never claiming what they wrote was Inspired. They simply claimed their arguments were true to the OT Scriptures. So please do not try to reject valid arguments solely based upon rejecting their writings as being Inspired. After all, you're claiming to be true to the Scriptures yourselves without feeling any need to claim Divine Inspiration.

Thanks
To qualify as messiah, a person has to fulfill ALL the messianic prophecies. This is the ONLY way to identify the messiah. So, if a person fails to fulfill even one prophecy, they cannot be the messiah. Jesus simply didn't fulfill all the prophecies. For example, one prophecy is that the messiah will usher in an era of worldwide peace between the nations. "And he shall judge among the nations, and shall rebuke many people: and they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruninghooks: nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall they learn war any more.: (Isaiah 2:4). Jesus just didn't do this, thus he is disqualified.
 
To qualify as messiah, a person has to fulfill ALL the messianic prophecies. This is the ONLY way to identify the messiah. So, if a person fails to fulfill even one prophecy, they cannot be the messiah. Jesus simply didn't fulfill all the prophecies. For example, one prophecy is that the messiah will usher in an era of worldwide peace between the nations. "And he shall judge among the nations, and shall rebuke many people: and they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruninghooks: nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall they learn war any more.: (Isaiah 2:4). Jesus just didn't do this, thus he is disqualified.

Your assumption is clear. You're making the assumption that Messiah will only appear in humanity ONCE.

Now that you're made this "assumption". Please prove from the Scriptures that Messiah is only promised to appear ONCE.

I'll wait......
 
Your assumption is clear. You're making the assumption that Messiah will only appear in humanity ONCE.

Now that you're made this "assumption". Please prove from the Scriptures that Messiah is only promised to appear ONCE.

I'll wait......
I'll make you a deal. If Jesus ever finishes fulfilling the prophecies, I'll admit he is the messiah. But until he does, he is NOT the messiah.

And yes, my assumption is that the messiah comes once, and lives a normal life and then dies a normal death. The MAIN purpose of the messiah is to rule during the idyllic messianic age. Since that age has not yet happened, we do not yet have any messiah.
 
I'll make you a deal. If Jesus ever finishes fulfilling the prophecies, I'll admit he is the messiah. But until he does, he is NOT the messiah.

And yes, my assumption is that the messiah comes once, and lives a normal life and then dies a normal death. The MAIN purpose of the messiah is to rule during the idyllic messianic age. Since that age has not yet happened, we do not yet have any messiah.

We happen to share the belief that Messiah will physically rule humanity. I'm rather certain that you haven't realized there are many Christians that do share this belief with you. Which is why I asked the question to begin with. After all, we are the family of God in the tradition of Abraham.

Now that you've proven that you don't understand your own teachings of Messiah......

Please provide evidence that Messiah will only come once. Remember, that is your belief/assumption.

I still look for Messiah to complete the work He began. It is the core of our hope in Christianity. You only have a small portion of what you need. You need to reach out from the darkness and accept the many prophecies that Christ fulfilled.

After all..... you can't point to another that has already done the same........ Right?
 
I know it is common practice in Judaism to reject the claim made in Christianity of Jesus Christ being the promised Heir of Abraham. Messiah.

I would like to review the claims made by modern Judaism as to exactly why Jesus Christ couldn't possibly have been the promised Heir and Messiah.

Before we begin. I know Judaism does not recognize the NT as being canonical. However, this doesn't change the fact that the NT writers referenced the OT when they made they're comments.
Out of context most of the time.

Their arguments are valid interpretations of the OT. I will not be asking you to accept the canonical position of the NT.
Then there's no reason to talk.

However, I do insist that you deal with the claims of the authors as they reference the OT.
See above.

These are the same arguments the NT writers made to their reading while never claiming what they wrote was Inspired.
Well, we can tell it isn't inspired.

They simply claimed their arguments were true to the OT Scriptures. So please do not try to reject valid arguments solely based upon rejecting their writings as being Inspired. After all, you're claiming to be true to the Scriptures yourselves without feeling any need to claim Divine Inspiration.
Tanakh confirms itself.

No problem.
 
We happen to share the belief that Messiah will physically rule humanity. I'm rather certain that you haven't realized there are many Christians that do share this belief with you. Which is why I asked the question to begin with. After all, we are the family of God in the tradition of Abraham.
Not really.

Now that you've proven that you don't understand your own teachings of Messiah......
In what way?

Please provide evidence that Messiah will only come once.
Provide evidence Messiah will come twice. ;)

Remember, that is your belief/assumption.
The Law of Kings

Deut 17:14-20
14When you enter the land that the LORD your God is giving you and have taken possession of it and settled in it, and you say, “Let us set a king over us like all the nations around us,” 15you are to appoint over yourselves the king whom the LORD your God shall choose. Appoint a king from among your brothers; you are not to set over yourselves a foreigner who is not one of your brothers.
16But the king must not acquire many horses for himself or send the people back to Egypt to acquire more horses, for the LORD has said, ‘You are never to go back that way again.’ 17He must not take many wives for himself, lest his heart go astray. He must not accumulate for himself large amounts of silver and gold.
18When he is seated on his royal throne, he must write for himself a copy of this instruction on a scroll in the presence of the Levitical priests. 19It is to remain with him, and he is to read from it all the days of his life, so that he may learn to fear the LORD his God by carefully observing all the words of this instruction and these statutes. 20Then his heart will not be exalted above his countrymen, and he will not turn aside from the commandment, to the right or to the left, in order that he and his sons may reign many years over his kingdom in Israel.

Kings have sons to reign after them, acknowledge they aren't God, serve with the Levitical Priesthood, still follow and rule by the law, etc.

Please notice Jesus didn't fulfill these laws.

I still look for Messiah to complete the work He began. It is the core of our hope in Christianity. You only have a small portion of what you need. You need to reach out from the darkness and accept the many prophecies that Christ fulfilled.
My hope is that the true Messiah will come soon.

After all..... you can't point to another that has already done the same........ Right?
What? There have been many failed Messiahs that haven't accomplished what was expected. Jesus falls into the same category.
 
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I know it is common practice in Judaism to reject the claim made in Christianity of Jesus Christ being the promised Heir of Abraham. Messiah.

I would like to review the claims made by modern Judaism as to exactly why Jesus Christ couldn't possibly have been the promised Heir and Messiah.

Before we begin. I know Judaism does not recognize the NT as being canonical. However, this doesn't change the fact that the NT writers referenced the OT when they made they're comments. Their arguments are valid interpretations of the OT. I will not be asking you to accept the canonical position of the NT. However, I do insist that you deal with the claims of the authors as they reference the OT. These are the same arguments the NT writers made to their reading while never claiming what they wrote was Inspired. They simply claimed their arguments were true to the OT Scriptures. So please do not try to reject valid arguments solely based upon rejecting their writings as being Inspired. After all, you're claiming to be true to the Scriptures yourselves without feeling any need to claim Divine Inspiration.

Thanks
The NT authors misquote the text, quote it out of context, and in at least one case, make up a prophecy that does not even exist in the Tanakh. So no, don't expect us to give any credibility whatsoever to the NT interpetations of the Tanakh.
 
The NT authors misquote the text, quote it out of context, and in at least one case, make up a prophecy that does not even exist in the Tanakh. So no, don't expect us to give any credibility whatsoever to the NT interpetations of the Tanakh.

I don't see any details.

So you couldn't find a single prophecy that establishes that Messiah will only appear once?

I knew it. You didn't it. You obviously do not know your own canonical collections as well as I do. Have you given up?
 
Deut 17:14-20
14When you enter the land that the LORD your God is giving you and have taken possession of it and settled in it, and you say, “Let us set a king over us like all the nations around us,”

I'm only going to deal with what you quote from the OT. So continue to do so....

Notice the context of verse 14.

1Sa 8:6 But the matter was displeasing to Samuel when they said, "Give us a king to judge us," so Samuel prayed to Yahweh.
 
Yep, that already happened so Jesus failed.

No. It wasn't talking about Messiah. You failed.

So then it's displeasing to claim Jesus as as a descendant of King David, etc.

Deut is a prophecy of what would come to pass and was fulfilled in the Samuel's day.

You're the silly person who claimed it applies to your messiah.... you know... the one you don't believe exists yet.

I think I'm going to put you back on ignore. You have ZERO idea of what you're claiming. Forget it. Claim victory. Pat yourself on the back and find someone else to troll.
 
No. It wasn't talking about Messiah. You failed.
The law of Kings. Is Messiah a King?

Deut is a prophecy of what would come to pass and was fulfilled in the Samuel's day.
No, it's commandments in Deut 17:14-20, the law of kings.

You're the silly person who claimed it applies to your messiah.... you know... the one you don't believe exists yet.
Messiah is obligated in these commandments. Was Jesus perfect in them or not?

Until Heaven and Earth...

I think I'm going to put you back on ignore. You have ZERO idea of what you're claiming. Forget it. Claim victory. Pat yourself on the back and find someone else to troll.
Rotfl... as usual, when you get backed in a corner, you come up with an excuse to run away.

Desperado, why don't you come to your senses?...
 
The law of Kings. Is Messiah a King?

No it is not a law for all Kings. The context is set in v14. You know.... the one you claimed Samuel dealt with?

You're all over the place. You don't have a theology. All you do is come in this forum and ramble at anything and everything someone says. You're shooting yourself in the foot and don't even realize it.

Rotfl... as usual, when you get backed in a corner, you come up with an excuse to run away.

I have a hard interacting with a make believe "cowboy" that shoots himself in the foot all the time and never realizes it.

ADD the fact that you act like a 12 year old with the all the "ROTFL" comments I just can't tolerate it.
 
No it is not a law for all Kings. The context is set in v14. You know.... the one you claimed Samuel dealt with?
It's the law of kings.

You're all over the place. You don't have a theology. All you do is come in this forum and ramble at anything and everything someone says. You're shooting yourself in the foot and don't even realize it.
Rotfl... you can't defend yourself and yet you want to come to the Judaism forums? Give me a break. You're the troll.

I have a hard interacting with a make believe "cowboy" that shoots himself in the foot all the time and never realizes it.
I haven't shot myself yet. 🔫

ADD the fact that you act like a 12 year old with the all the "ROTFL" comments I just can't tolerate it.
The reality is you don't have a defense. ;)
 
I don't see any details.

So you couldn't find a single prophecy that establishes that Messiah will only appear once?

I knew it. You didn't it. You obviously do not know your own canonical collections as well as I do. Have you given up?
Once is the default. It is incumbent upon you to show a verse that says he will come twice.
 
"Be glad then, ye children of Zion, and rejoice in the Lord your God: for he hath given you the former rain moderately, and he will cause to come down for you the rain, the former rain, and the latter rain in the first month." Joel 2 NKJV

"And the children of Zion, rejoice and jubilate with the Lord your God,
for He gave you the teacher (called Teacher of Righteousness in Dead Sea Scrolls, ie. Messiah)
for justification, and He brought down for you rain, the early rain and the late rain in the first month." Joel 2 chabad.org

"Then shall we know, if we follow on to know the Lord: his going forth is prepared as the morning; and he shall come unto us as the rain, as the latter and former rain unto the earth." Hosea 6

"Sow for yourselves righteousness;
Reap in mercy;
Break up your fallow ground,
For it is time to seek the Lord,
Till He comes
and rains righteousness on you." Hosea 10

1st appearence and 2nd appearence of Messiah
Former rain and Latter rain

" Therefore be patient, brethren, until the coming of the Lord. See how the farmer waits for the precious fruit of the earth,
waiting patiently for it until it receives the early and latter rain.
You also be patient.
Establish your hearts, for the coming of the Lord is at hand." James 5

"Sow righteousness for yourselves, reap according to loving-kindness, plow yourselves a plowing,
and it is time to seek the Lord, until He comes and instructs you in righteousness." Hosea 10 chabad.org
 
"Be glad then, ye children of Zion, and rejoice in the Lord your God: for he hath given you the former rain moderately, and he will cause to come down for you the rain, the former rain, and the latter rain in the first month." Joel 2 NKJV

"And the children of Zion, rejoice and jubilate with the Lord your God,
for He gave you the teacher (called Teacher of Righteousness in Dead Sea Scrolls, ie. Messiah)
for justification, and He brought down for you rain, the early rain and the late rain in the first month." Joel 2 chabad.org

"Then shall we know, if we follow on to know the Lord: his going forth is prepared as the morning; and he shall come unto us as the rain, as the latter and former rain unto the earth." Hosea 6

"Sow for yourselves righteousness;
Reap in mercy;
Break up your fallow ground,
For it is time to seek the Lord,
Till He comes
and rains righteousness on you." Hosea 10

1st appearence and 2nd appearence of Messiah
Former rain and Latter rain

" Therefore be patient, brethren, until the coming of the Lord. See how the farmer waits for the precious fruit of the earth,
waiting patiently for it until it receives the early and latter rain.
You also be patient.
Establish your hearts, for the coming of the Lord is at hand." James 5

"Sow righteousness for yourselves, reap according to loving-kindness, plow yourselves a plowing,
and it is time to seek the Lord, until He comes and instructs you in righteousness." Hosea 10 chabad.org
There aren't any references to Messiah at all based on the Tanakh verses you cited.

Deut 11
13So if you carefully obey the commandments I am giving you today, to love the LORD your God and to serve Him with all your heart and with all your soul, 14then I will provide rain for your land in season, the autumn and spring rains, that you may gather your grain, new wine, and oil. 15And I will provide grass in the fields for your livestock, and you will eat and be satisfied.
16But be careful that you are not enticed to turn aside to worship and bow down to other gods, 17or the anger of the LORD will be kindled against you. He will shut the heavens so that there will be no rain, nor will the land yield its produce, and you will soon perish from the good land that the LORD is giving you.

What is interesting is the association of rain with obedience to the commandments. And, here's the kicker, these verses are part of the verses of Shema that every religious male Jew recites each day, and that are on the parchments in our tefillin worn during prayers.
 
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any references to Messiah

religious Jews who reject Messiah may put the most emphasis on the Law itself, rather than the idea of moriel
in the same way the rabbis can put themselves above God

they can also deny Biblical basis for the compound unity of God
and any notion of the Lord visiting or coming

"love the LORD your God and to serve Him with all your heart and with all your soul"
of course no one does this among men who are Sin

in Revelation, the two witnesses will have the power to prevent rain fall

also, in the Messianic age, those who don't worship as instructed will receive no rain
this won't effect Israel, as at that time all present will be Believers and know Jesus is the Lord and God

"the nations...shall go up from year to year to worship the King, the Lord of hosts, and to keep the Feast of Tabernacles.
And it shall be that whichever of the families of the earth do not come up to Jerusalem to worship the King, the Lord of hosts (Messiah),
on them there will be no rain." Zechariah 14
 
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