What is the standard for a good person?

Open Heart

Well-known member
The NT teaches that if you break one law, you've broken them all, that NO ONE is a good person. But is perfection the standard of the God of teh Tanakh?

No.

For one thing, we have examples of men who are called righteous by the Bible: Noah was righteous in his generation, and Job was perfect. We also have the fact that over and again, the righteous are contrasted with the foolish -- that would not be possible if righteous people did not exist.

So then what DOES the Tanakh say a good man is?
Proverbs 24:16,
For a just man falleth seven times, and riseth up again: but the wicked shall fall into mischief.

Basically, the righteous man is not perfect, but keeps repenting and returning to God's ways. The widked man does not repent.
 

American Gothic

Well-known member
Saving righteousness is a gift/
and the Just live by Faith (belief and trust) Habakkuk 2 Romans 1 Galatians 3 Hebrews 10

under the Mosaic covenant and Law, God holds sins against
He promised a future time when He would remember sins no more, which is not Mosaic law stuff
Isaiah 43 Jeremiah 31 Jeremiah 50 Micah 7 Hebrews 10 and 11

God can declare and then consider someone Righteous in His sight if and when He wants
"Abraham believed...and it was counted to him as righteousness" Genesis 15
He desired Mercy and not sacrifices (which were for teaching things)
of course there were people God declared to be Righteous in his sight long before any Mosaic law Hebrews 11

under Mosaic law (and anytime), God said blood is necessary to deal with a perfect and Holy God
just being Jewish, trying to be good, and lip service doesn't cut it
 
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Rachel Redux

Active member
The NT teaches that if you break one law, you've broken them all, that NO ONE is a good person. But is perfection the standard of the God of teh Tanakh?

No.

For one thing, we have examples of men who are called righteous by the Bible: Noah was righteous in his generation, and Job was perfect. We also have the fact that over and again, the righteous are contrasted with the foolish -- that would not be possible if righteous people did not exist.

So then what DOES the Tanakh say a good man is?
Proverbs 24:16,
For a just man falleth seven times, and riseth up again: but the wicked shall fall into mischief.

Basically, the righteous man is not perfect, but keeps repenting and returning to God's ways. The widked man does not repent.
Then why do you need Yom Kippur?
 

American Gothic

Well-known member
at Sinai, Israel did not say "we will do our best" Exodus 19:8
plenty of good acting people are enemies of God
there are Spiritual issues that go beyond the Flesh and physical obedience

2 paths for people to follow -

"Mankind has two natures in which he can walk until the time of his visitation.
These are the spirit of truth and the spirit of deceit."
Qumran "Community Rule"

"You are of God, little children, and have overcome them, because
He who is in you is greater than he who is in the World.
They are of the world, therefore the speak as the world, and as
the world hears them.
We are of God, He who knows God hears us, and he who is not
of God does not hear us.
By this we know the spirit of truth and the spirit of error."
1 John 4
(Strong's G4106 - Greek word for error means deceit, delusion, error
so it's a direct quote match by John of a non Pharisaic but Jewish view into the NT)
 
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Open Heart

Well-known member
Saving righteousness is a gift/
The whole idea that you need to be saved is Christian one. I seek to live righteously because God by nature is deserving my obedience, and being a good person is intrinsically rewarding. It has nothing to do with being "saved."
 

Open Heart

Well-known member
Then why do you need Yom Kippur?
Yom Kippur is a helpful set of traditions that further our capacity to repent and return to God. If you read what I wrote, you would have seen the verse from proverbs, that repentence is part of being a righteous person.
 

American Gothic

Well-known member
The whole idea that you need to be saved is Christian one. I seek to live righteously because God by nature is deserving my obedience, and being a good person is intrinsically rewarding. It has nothing to do with being "saved."
by Saved you could say a place in the World to Come
not everyone will have that
 
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American Gothic

Well-known member
God by nature is deserving my obedience
agree with this
and yes, God does implore us to choose righteousness/Him/Life
but that starts with Belief and Trust based in Truth as He reveals
Jesus said unless one's righteousness exceeded that of the
scribes and Pharisees, one would by no means see the Kingdom

God said Israel would err and apostatize
Perhaps the Pharisaic view is Error/deception?
 
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Open Heart

Well-known member
by Saved you could say a place in the World to Come
not everyone will have that
The way I have learned it, only the most wicked will have their souls destroyed -- the vast majority of people spend some time in Gehenna and then are resurrected to the world to come. Some Jews are universalists, believing that everyone will be there. And some Jews of course don't believe in any afterlife at all.

The point of the thread is, AG, that the good guys are the ones that repent. It isn't a case that there are no good guys.
 

Rachel Redux

Active member
Yom Kippur is a helpful set of traditions that further our capacity to repent and return to God. If you read what I wrote, you would have seen the verse from proverbs, that repentence is part of being a righteous person.
Lol....."helpful set of traditions". They're Jehovah's commands to the Hebrews. And there's more to Yom Kippur than repentance. I'd think you'd know that.
Honestly, I can no longer take your replies seriously.
 

American Gothic

Well-known member
It isn't a case that there are no good guys.
compared to God, we ain't that good tho Isaiah 64
a perfectly good person would never have to repent

I agree we should pursue goodness, and many are in this WOKE age
and I don't believe by saying no one is "good" that
that is being discounted in any way
I think there is some subtlety in what is being said there
Jesus told Nico he needed to be born again to see the Kingdom

How is yr own personal pursuit of Righteousness going?
Does one need a Law or traditions as a guide to pursue that effectively?
Is yr view Reform, Conservative within Judaism??

why ask...?
Jews ask questions, sometimes
just because they want to hear the response
 
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American Gothic

Well-known member
ooops, Gentile...;)

my personal Christian experience is pretty casual
I didn't grow up in a commandments/sacraments culture
like religious Jews or other flavor of Christians do
so my attitude on this topic will reflect

I do think we need to obey God
and try to walk as He would want us to walk/
and if anything is commanded then certainly do that

not sure what that would relate to "goodness"
the goodness of the OP would have to be defined
God can make us good - He says He will Perfect people
"He will fulfill His plans for me...
do not abandon the works of Your hands" Psalm 138
"He who began a good work in you will
carry it on to completion" Philippians 1

our inability to live up to God's desire seems rooted in bigger issues
than just our acting good or bad

I agree non-believers would not "repent" in any way. with respect to God, if they don't believe in Him
 
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Open Heart

Well-known member
Lol....."helpful set of traditions". They're Jehovah's commands to the Hebrews. And there's more to Yom Kippur than repentance. I'd think you'd know that.
Honestly, I can no longer take your replies seriously.
I don't see any contradiction between saying Yom Kippur is a commandment from God and saying that it is a helpful set of traditions. God commanded the holy day because it is what is good for us.
 

Open Heart

Well-known member
compared to God, we ain't that good tho Isaiah 64
a perfectly good person would never have to repent

I agree we should pursue goodness, and many are in this WOKE age
and I don't believe by saying no one is "good" that
that is being discounted in any way
I think there is some subtlety in what is being said there
Jesus told Nico he needed to be born again to see the Kingdom

How is yr own personal pursuit of Righteousness going?
Does one need a Law or traditions as a guide to pursue that effectively?
Is yr view Reform, Conservative within Judaism??


Jews ask questions, sometimes
just because they want to hear the response
But we aren't comparing ourselves to God. We are looking at the human spectrum and not eveyone is the same. You have extremely kind, extremely self sacrificing people on one end. On the other end, you have people who are willing to harm others in order to get ahead. And most people are somewhere in the middle, being mostly kind, but who screw up. It is not fair to the people at the top of the spectrum to call them "bad" as if they are the sociopaths from the other end of the spectrum.
 

American Gothic

Well-known member
But we aren't comparing ourselves to God. We are looking at the human spectrum and not eveyone is the same. You have extremely kind, extremely self sacrificing people on one end. On the other end, you have people who are willing to harm others in order to get ahead. And most people are somewhere in the middle, being mostly kind, but who screw up. It is not fair to the people at the top of the spectrum to call them "bad" as if they are the sociopaths from the other end of the spectrum.
you seem to think God is interested in Fairness Why?
would Fair be good for Us?

"there is no one who does good (among the sons of Men), not even one" Psalm 14
"no one is good except God alone" Mark 10

the joke is a Jewish joke
I guess it's a Jew would answer the question with a question
 
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Open Heart

Well-known member
you seem to think God is interested in Fairness Why?
Because God is JUST. Part of justice is fairness. Yes I think that it would work out well for most people. Most people are actually morally mediocre -- they do good for their families and friend. There are the truly righteous, who place the needs of others above themselves. And then there are those who are evil, who are willing to harm people in order to get ahead. If God is just, he will not treat the righteous the same way he treats the evil.

Psalm 1 speaks of the assembly of the rightous. How is there such an assembly if no one is righteous?
 

American Gothic

Well-known member
And then there are those who are willing to harm people in order to get ahead
in Darwinian thinking that might not be Wrong

Most people are actually morally mediocre/Men falleth..and rise up again
is a Fallen nature in humanity a thing in any branch of Judaism?

what was the difference between Cain and Abel
was Abel righteous? if so, could Cain have just repented a bunch and then been as righteous as Abel again?
is Mercy a part of Justice? or something else?

"now Faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen
for by it the elders obtained a good testimony" Hebrews 11
 
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