What is the standard for a good person?

Rachel Redux

Active member
I don't see any contradiction between saying Yom Kippur is a commandment from God and saying that it is a helpful set of traditions. God commanded the holy day because it is what is good for us.
Well, as usual, you're completely evading my question. You basically claimed that all one needs to do is "be a good person" and repent of their sins to be right with God.

Let me try again. If that's true, why did Jehovah command the Hebrews to observe Yom Kippur, which involves repentance, forgiving others and, oh yeah...a blood sacrifice?? Any chance that you'll actually address my question?
 

Open Heart

Well-known member
is a Fallen nature in humanity a thing in any branch of Judaism?
Judaism teaches that we have a dual nature. We have a Yetzer Hara, or evil inclination, but also a Yetzer Tov, or good inclination.

But the yetzer hara is not intrinsically evil. It is our animal instincts. There is a story about what the world would be like without Yetzer Hara, and it would not be a good thing.

"The rabbinic tradition preserves this story: Our sages once caught the yetzer harah –the bad inclination, and bound it up with gold chains. At first, they were very pleased with themselves. Thievery stopped; murder ceased. People were suddenly friendly and loving toward one another. There was no jealousy; and in all the land no arguments occurred, and moreover, no one died.

Then, slowly, our sages came to a strange realization. People were so satisfied and contented that they did not bother to toil. There was no competition, so people quit striving. No new houses were built. People no longer married or wanted to have children. No babies were born. Even the sages themselves became lazy and put off their study of Torah. In this way, our sages learned how important the evil urge is to the world. They broke the golden chains and set free the yetzer harah (Midrash Genesis Rabbah 9:7).
The sages are right, if we did not have a yetzer harah—the bad self features–a little of the inclination to compare ourselves to others, to want surpass others, we may not have the productive urge necessary to accomplish real goals. However, while the yetzer harah can sometimes contribute to our greatness, it can also get us into trouble..." https://www.ttti.org/harnessing-our-yetzer/
 
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Open Heart

Well-known member
Well, as usual, you're completely evading my question. You basically claimed that all one needs to do is "be a good person" and repent of their sins to be right with God.

Let me try again. If that's true, why did Jehovah command the Hebrews to observe Yom Kippur, which involves repentance, forgiving others and, oh yeah...a blood sacrifice?? Any chance that you'll actually address my question?
There are so many different passages I could go to in response to this. Let's try these three:

When David confesses "I have sinned!" (meaning he is repentent) Nathan does NOT say, "Quick lets go make a sacrifice." He says, "The LORD has forgiven you." IOW David was forgiven by God solely on the basis of his repentence, not a sacrifice. That's in 2 Samuel 12:13

Here is another: Psalm 51:16-17
You do not delight in sacrifice, or I would bring it; you do not take pleasure in burnt offerings. My sacrifice, O God, is a broken spirit; a broken and contrite heart you, God, will not despise.

And here is the blanket statement of what to do when there is no temple for sacrifice:
Hosea 14:2
The words of our lips (prayers) shall be as bullocks (sacrifices).


So basically, although Yom Kippur is a commandment:
1. It is not necessary for the forgiveness of sins and
2. Yom Kippur prayers substitute for the sacrifices.
 

American Gothic

Well-known member
Judaism teaches that we have a dual nature. We have a Yetzer Hara, or evil inclination, but also a Yetzer Tov, or good inclination.

It is our animal instincts.
"Then Noah built an altar to the Lord, and took of every clean animal and of every clean bird, and offered burnt offerings on the altar. And the Lord smelled a soothing aroma. Then the Lord said in His heart, “I will never again curse the ground for man’s sake, although the imagination of man’s heart is evil from his youth; nor will I again destroy every living thing as I have done." Genesis 8

what is meant here by the "heart" problem?
 

American Gothic

Well-known member
When David confesses "I have sinned!" (meaning he is repentent) Nathan does NOT say, "Quick lets go make a sacrifice." He says, "The LORD has forgiven you." IOW David was forgiven by God solely on the basis of his repentence, not a sacrifice. That's in 2 Samuel 12:13
I view David as a Believer and so already given a place in the World to Come, regardless.

I'm not sure David even had a copy of the Law to read, if it had been sealed in the Ark by apostate priests (?)
and he relied on a Gentile prophet to tell him the words of the LORD
Maybe proof that the Mosaic law, Oral law, and a fancy tent/Temple really wasn't necessary at all Galatians 3

one could just be a person of Belief and Trust within the spirit of Truth of how God reveals Himself and His promises
and they would be just Fine

"But the hour comes...when (all) true worshippers shall worship...in spirit and in truth" John 4
 
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Open Heart

Well-known member
"Then Noah built an altar to the Lord, and took of every clean animal and of every clean bird, and offered burnt offerings on the altar. And the Lord smelled a soothing aroma. Then the Lord said in His heart, “I will never again curse the ground for man’s sake, although the imagination of man’s heart is evil from his youth; nor will I again destroy every living thing as I have done." Genesis 8

what is meant here by the "heart" problem?
Heart in this context refers to a man's innermost being.

I've already said that Judaism teaches we have a Yetzer Hara. I'm not sure what your problem with what I said is.
 

Open Heart

Well-known member
I view David as a Believer and so already given a place in the World to Come, regardless.

I'm not sure David even had a copy of the Law to read, if it had been sealed in the Ark by apostate priests (?)
and he relied on a Gentile prophet to tell him the words of the LORD
Maybe proof that the Mosaic law, Oral law, and a fancy tent/Temple really wasn't necessary at all Galatians 3

one could just be a person of Belief and Trust within the spirit of Truth of how God reveals Himself and His promises
and they would be just Fine

"But the hour comes...when (all) true worshippers shall worship...in spirit and in truth" John 4
David didn't believe in Jesus. Your claim is like the one that Jesus is a muslim.
 

American Gothic

Well-known member
David didn't believe in Jesus.
David was a believer in the Messiah to come, whoever that might be
he had unique personal promise from God on that issue

David was a part of Israel, so if you want to argue blood sacrifices have nothing to do
with David being forgiven by God, that is one thing
but if David wanted the relationship with God as part of Israel under the Mosaic covenant
then the Mosaic law commanded blood sacrifice - by individuals, families, and the Nation

Methuselah was a sinner and also person of Faith as well
but he wasn't a part of Israel, and so had no Mosaic law commands to keep

in David's time, Israel had the relationship with God they agreed to at Sinai
it's highly suspect to suggest that David just blew them off
God is deserving of David's full obedience, no?
 
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American Gothic

Well-known member
Heart in this context refers to a man's innermost being.
would that be the person/Soul, as opposed to the physical body? (thru which physical Obedience might then manifest, or not)
is our very Person effected by Sin?
what would inspire someone try to Obey?
 
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Slyzr

Well-known member
The NT teaches that if you break one law, you've broken them all, that NO ONE is a good person. But is perfection the standard of the God of teh Tanakh?

No.

For one thing, we have examples of men who are called righteous by the Bible: Noah was righteous in his generation, and Job was perfect. We also have the fact that over and again, the righteous are contrasted with the foolish -- that would not be possible if righteous people did not exist.

So then what DOES the Tanakh say a good man is?
Proverbs 24:16,
For a just man falleth seven times, and riseth up again: but the wicked shall fall into mischief.

Basically, the righteous man is not perfect, but keeps repenting and returning to God's ways. The widked man does not repent.

Good post ......

Not looking to quibble over your last sentence.

but ye vey ......
 

Slyzr

Well-known member
Saving righteousness is a gift/
and the Just live by Faith (belief and trust) Habakkuk 2 Romans 1 Galatians 3 Hebrews 10

under the Mosaic covenant and Law, God holds sins against
He promised a future time when He would remember sins no more, which is not Mosaic law stuff
Isaiah 43 Jeremiah 31 Jeremiah 50 Micah 7 Hebrews 10 and 11

God can declare and then consider someone Righteous in His sight if and when He wants
"Abraham believed...and it was counted to him as righteousness" Genesis 15
He desired Mercy and not sacrifices (which were for teaching things)
of course there were people God declared to be Righteous in his sight long before any Mosaic law Hebrews 11

under Mosaic law (and anytime), God said blood is necessary to deal with a perfect and Holy God
just being Jewish, trying to be good, and lip service doesn't cut it

oy vey .......
 

Slyzr

Well-known member
Judaism teaches that we have a dual nature. We have a Yetzer Hara, or evil inclination, but also a Yetzer Tov, or good inclination.

But the yetzer hara is not intrinsically evil. It is our animal instincts. There is a story about what the world would be like without Yetzer Hara, and it would not be a good thing.

"The rabbinic tradition preserves this story: Our sages once caught the yetzer harah –the bad inclination, and bound it up with gold chains. At first, they were very pleased with themselves. Thievery stopped; murder ceased. People were suddenly friendly and loving toward one another. There was no jealousy; and in all the land no arguments occurred, and moreover, no one died.

Then, slowly, our sages came to a strange realization. People were so satisfied and contented that they did not bother to toil. There was no competition, so people quit striving. No new houses were built. People no longer married or wanted to have children. No babies were born. Even the sages themselves became lazy and put off their study of Torah. In this way, our sages learned how important the evil urge is to the world. They broke the golden chains and set free the yetzer harah (Midrash Genesis Rabbah 9:7).
The sages are right, if we did not have a yetzer harah—the bad self features–a little of the inclination to compare ourselves to others, to want surpass others, we may not have the productive urge necessary to accomplish real goals. However, while the yetzer harah can sometimes contribute to our greatness, it can also get us into trouble..." https://www.ttti.org/harnessing-our-yetzer/

great story ......

I read a quote some where that righteousness is the enemy of the living.
 

SeventhDay

Well-known member
The NT teaches that if you break one law, you've broken them all, that NO ONE is a good person. But is perfection the standard of the God of teh Tanakh?

No.

For one thing, we have examples of men who are called righteous by the Bible: Noah was righteous in his generation, and Job was perfect. We also have the fact that over and again, the righteous are contrasted with the foolish -- that would not be possible if righteous people did not exist.

So then what DOES the Tanakh say a good man is?
Proverbs 24:16,
For a just man falleth seven times, and riseth up again: but the wicked shall fall into mischief.

Basically, the righteous man is not perfect, but keeps repenting and returning to God's ways. The widked man does not repent.
It is Christ in us that makes us a good person but the old man must go! :)

God bless you,

SeventhDay
 

American Gothic

Well-known member
it's good to admit you did bad, but does that admission itself make you good?
you acknowledged that you are not always good - something God would never have to do
if used Lawfully, certain sometimes commanded sacrifices should show you the wages of sin is Death
and in God's opinion, that is what we really deserve
and Mercy would not be Justice

oy vey must be the new ROTFL
 
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SeventhDay

Well-known member
I liked open hearts post ..... #22.
Logically speaking "a is "a" and can not be non "a". However, how do we know what "a" is to make a distinction from what it is not. The rules of logic require contrast and so does the rule of life so we understand God and glorify God. Good does not matter if there is no evil and God does not matter if we have not known attachment to something else. God making us in his image has got to mean something and there is no meaning without contrast. God bless you. :)
 

Slyzr

Well-known member
Logically speaking "a is "a" and can not be non "a". However, how do we know what "a" is to make a distinction from what it is not. The rules of logic require contrast and so does the rule of life so we understand God and glorify God. Good does not matter if there is no evil and God does not matter if we have not known attachment to something else. God making us in his image has got to mean something and there is no meaning without contrast. God bless you. :)

This is why conversion is an issue.

How can you be when you are not?
 
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