What is the standard for repentance?

Algernon

Active member
Let's start with Ezekiel who was one of the late OT prophets. Following is the standard for repentance set by God according to Ezekiel.

Ezekiel 18
21“But if a wicked person turns away from all the sins they have committed and keeps all my decrees and does what is just and right, that person will surely live; they will not die. 22None of the offenses they have committed will be remembered against them. Because of the righteous things they have done, they will live...
24“But if a righteous person turns from their righteousness and commits sin and does the same detestable things the wicked person does, will they live? None of the righteous things that person has done will be remembered. Because of the unfaithfulness they are guilty of and because of the sins they have committed, they will die...
30“Therefore, you Israelites, I will judge each of you according to your own ways, declares the Sovereign Lord. Repent! Turn away from all your offenses; then sin will not be your downfall. 31Rid yourselves of all the offenses you have committed, and get a new heart and a new spirit. Why will you die, people of Israel? 32For I take no pleasure in the death of anyone, declares the Sovereign Lord. Repent and live!

Clearly the standard for repentance set by God is that the individual no longer commits sin. Those who repent and no longer commit sin will "live". Those who do not repent and continue to sin will "die".

The gospel preached by Jesus is consistent with this standard of repentance. Those who repent and no longer commit sin will "live". Those who do not repent and continue to sin will "die".

Yet the vast majority of Christians seem to have a lower standard for repentance. Some seem to have a much lower standard for repentance.

How can a standard that is lower than that set by God and that is consistent with the gospel preached by Jesus during His ministry reasonably be justified?

Note that Isaiah 1 and Jeremiah 7 are also consistent with the concepts set forth in Ezekiel 18. It is up to the individual to "stop doing wrong" and "make [themselves] clean". The door is closed on "sacrifice". God wants loyalty. The last two concepts are also explicitly stated in Hosea 6:6. These are also late OT prophets. All of these concepts are consistent with the gospel preached by Jesus.
 

Gary Mac

Well-known member
Let's start with Ezekiel who was one of the late OT prophets. Following is the standard for repentance set by God according to Ezekiel.

Ezekiel 18
21“But if a wicked person turns away from all the sins they have committed and keeps all my decrees and does what is just and right, that person will surely live; they will not die. 22None of the offenses they have committed will be remembered against them. Because of the righteous things they have done, they will live...
24“But if a righteous person turns from their righteousness and commits sin and does the same detestable things the wicked person does, will they live? None of the righteous things that person has done will be remembered. Because of the unfaithfulness they are guilty of and because of the sins they have committed, they will die...
30“Therefore, you Israelites, I will judge each of you according to your own ways, declares the Sovereign Lord. Repent! Turn away from all your offenses; then sin will not be your downfall. 31Rid yourselves of all the offenses you have committed, and get a new heart and a new spirit. Why will you die, people of Israel? 32For I take no pleasure in the death of anyone, declares the Sovereign Lord. Repent and live!

Clearly the standard for repentance set by God is that the individual no longer commits sin. Those who repent and no longer commit sin will "live". Those who do not repent and continue to sin will "die".

The gospel preached by Jesus is consistent with this standard of repentance. Those who repent and no longer commit sin will "live". Those who do not repent and continue to sin will "die".

Yet the vast majority of Christians seem to have a lower standard for repentance. Some seem to have a much lower standard for repentance.

How can a standard that is lower than that set by God and that is consistent with the gospel preached by Jesus during His ministry reasonably be justified?

Note that Isaiah 1 and Jeremiah 7 are also consistent with the concepts set forth in Ezekiel 18. It is up to the individual to "stop doing wrong" and "make [themselves] clean". The door is closed on "sacrifice". God wants loyalty. The last two concepts are also explicitly stated in Hosea 6:6. These are also late OT prophets. All of these concepts are consistent with the gospel preached by Jesus.
The reason religious folk who are sinners instead of the righteousness of God in Christ are they are not thorough in repentance. they cling to their own beliefs for a god instead of receiving from God that what Jesus received from Him to have His same mind.
 

York

Active member
Let's start with Ezekiel who was one of the late OT prophets. Following is the standard for repentance set by God according to Ezekiel.

Ezekiel 18
21“But if a wicked person turns away from all the sins they have committed and keeps all my decrees and does what is just and right, that person will surely live; they will not die. 22None of the offenses they have committed will be remembered against them. Because of the righteous things they have done, they will live...
24“But if a righteous person turns from their righteousness and commits sin and does the same detestable things the wicked person does, will they live? None of the righteous things that person has done will be remembered. Because of the unfaithfulness they are guilty of and because of the sins they have committed, they will die...
30“Therefore, you Israelites, I will judge each of you according to your own ways, declares the Sovereign Lord. Repent! Turn away from all your offenses; then sin will not be your downfall. 31Rid yourselves of all the offenses you have committed, and get a new heart and a new spirit. Why will you die, people of Israel? 32For I take no pleasure in the death of anyone, declares the Sovereign Lord. Repent and live!

Clearly the standard for repentance set by God is that the individual no longer commits sin. Those who repent and no longer commit sin will "live". Those who do not repent and continue to sin will "die".

The gospel preached by Jesus is consistent with this standard of repentance. Those who repent and no longer commit sin will "live". Those who do not repent and continue to sin will "die".

Yet the vast majority of Christians seem to have a lower standard for repentance. Some seem to have a much lower standard for repentance.

How can a standard that is lower than that set by God and that is consistent with the gospel preached by Jesus during His ministry reasonably be justified?

Note that Isaiah 1 and Jeremiah 7 are also consistent with the concepts set forth in Ezekiel 18. It is up to the individual to "stop doing wrong" and "make [themselves] clean". The door is closed on "sacrifice". God wants loyalty. The last two concepts are also explicitly stated in Hosea 6:6. These are also late OT prophets. All of these concepts are consistent with the gospel preached by Jesus.
You don't seem to be reckoning without the old covenant and new covenant. The covenant of works vs. the covenant of grace?

Sure, Christ preached the old covenant. He even expounded on it: adultery wasn't just having sex with another mans wife, it was having lustful thoughts. Oh dear!

But, er, he also preached the new covenant, the old as stage setting for introduction to the new.


Now you obviously know this but omit to mention it in your OP. Why is that?
 

York

Active member
I should have said reckoning with rather than without the new covenant.

Paul contrast the two in Romans - starting out with the old and showing how nobody can be saved by it before progressing to the new.

Pretty much in line with Jesus. First the problem, then the solution. A standard enough approach, the way one would approach a capital expenditure proposal...
 

CrowCross

Well-known member
The gospel preached by Jesus is consistent with this standard of repentance. Those who repent and no longer commit sin will "live". Those who do not repent and continue to sin will "die".

Yet the vast majority of Christians seem to have a lower standard for repentance. Some seem to have a much lower standard for repentance.
Here lies your problem.....all christians sin. You sin. I sin. The theology you preach condemns everyone.
 

Gary Mac

Well-known member
Here lies your problem.....all christians sin. You sin. I sin. The theology you preach condemns everyone.
Actually a Christian is Christ like. See 1 John 3:9 we who are born of God it is impossible to be in sin.

If you are a sinner see 1 John 3:8, it tells clearly who you are of. And in 1 John when you see Him as He is ye shall be like Him. if you are a sinner you have not seen Him nor do you know Him and is not born of Him.

In Christ, anointed of God, which is Christ in you, it is impossible to be in sin. If you ay you are of Christ yet a sinner then you make your Christ a sinner and His truth is not in you at all. It is those who are outside of Christ who are the sinners.
 

CrowCross

Well-known member
Actually a Christian is Christ like. See 1 John 3:9 we who are born of God it is impossible to be in sin.
It's not that cut and dry.

As Christians we can sin, but as
Christians we are forgiven......and it's not as cut and dry as I just said.
 

Gary Mac

Well-known member
It's not that cut and dry.

As Christians we can sin, but as
Christians we are forgiven......and it's not as cut and dry as I just said.
it is not that cut and dry for religious minds who has different ideas than to be born of God and have His same mind.

Sorry but Christ cannot sin no matter how hard you try and make Christ a sinner. Christ means for you to be anointed of God, Christ in you, jesus was Christ because he was anointed of God so are all who is of Christ. You act as if Christ is a person, Christ is not a person Christ is the disposition of the person who is anointed of God. You are not Gods anointed if you are a sinner. It is impossible to be of Christ and be in sin. You only misuse the name of Christ is all.

Christians are forgiven -- problem in most is they have not been thorough in repentance to become like Him. Abusing the name of Christ as an excuse to be a sinner instead of Gods righteous anointed of Him.
 

e v e

Super Member
Let's start with Ezekiel who was one of the late OT prophets. Following is the standard for repentance set by God according to Ezekiel.

Ezekiel 18
21“But if a wicked person turns away from all the sins they have committed and keeps all my decrees and does what is just and right, that person will surely live; they will not die. 22None of the offenses they have committed will be remembered against them. Because of the righteous things they have done, they will live...
24“But if a righteous person turns from their righteousness and commits sin and does the same detestable things the wicked person does, will they live? None of the righteous things that person has done will be remembered. Because of the unfaithfulness they are guilty of and because of the sins they have committed, they will die...
30“Therefore, you Israelites, I will judge each of you according to your own ways, declares the Sovereign Lord. Repent! Turn away from all your offenses; then sin will not be your downfall. 31Rid yourselves of all the offenses you have committed, and get a new heart and a new spirit. Why will you die, people of Israel? 32For I take no pleasure in the death of anyone, declares the Sovereign Lord. Repent and live!

Clearly the standard for repentance set by God is that the individual no longer commits sin. Those who repent and no longer commit sin will "live". Those who do not repent and continue to sin will "die".

The gospel preached by Jesus is consistent with this standard of repentance. Those who repent and no longer commit sin will "live". Those who do not repent and continue to sin will "die".

Yet the vast majority of Christians seem to have a lower standard for repentance. Some seem to have a much lower standard for repentance.

How can a standard that is lower than that set by God and that is consistent with the gospel preached by Jesus during His ministry reasonably be justified?

Note that Isaiah 1 and Jeremiah 7 are also consistent with the concepts set forth in Ezekiel 18. It is up to the individual to "stop doing wrong" and "make [themselves] clean". The door is closed on "sacrifice". God wants loyalty. The last two concepts are also explicitly stated in Hosea 6:6. These are also late OT prophets. All of these concepts are consistent with the gospel preached by Jesus.
the OT prophets are today ignored as they were in there own day.

No one wants to die to sin. Instead the modern invention is ‘I am saved already’

(while still living in the carnal self.)
(and though still living on this fallen earth which is not His).
 

e v e

Super Member
You don't seem to be reckoning without the old covenant and new covenant. The covenant of works vs. the covenant of grace?

Sure, Christ preached the old covenant. He even expounded on it: adultery wasn't just having sex with another mans wife, it was having lustful thoughts. Oh dear!

But, er, he also preached the new covenant, the old as stage setting for introduction to the new.


Now you obviously know this but omit to mention it in your OP. Why is that?


romans 8:2

the covenant He has with His Souls is to save us from here at the Change. To restore eden.

To abolish the sin realm and its law is the point. And legally He made it possible for us. He never abolished His own law —- He dies not change and has always wanted the same thing... to bring us back Home.
 

Algernon

Active member
You don't seem to be reckoning without the old covenant and new covenant. The covenant of works vs. the covenant of grace?

Sure, Christ preached the old covenant. He even expounded on it: adultery wasn't just having sex with another mans wife, it was having lustful thoughts. Oh dear!

But, er, he also preached the new covenant, the old as stage setting for introduction to the new.


Now you obviously know this but omit to mention it in your OP. Why is that?
Perhaps the best way to go about answering your question is move up a couple levels of abstraction.

As I explained in the other thread, I advocate for the gospel preached by Jesus. From the beginning of His ministry through His death, Jesus preached His gospel. The New Covenant is contained in the gospel preached by Jesus.

As Jesus preached His gospel, He taught salvation through righteousness. No one who commits sin is truly righteous.

According to the gospel preached by Jesus:
One must be truly righteous for “salvation”.
One must be truly righteous for “eternal life”.
One must be truly righteous to live in the “Kingdom of God”.
Only the truly righteous have been "born of the spirit" / "born from above".
Only the truly righteous receive the "spirit of truth".

Jesus calls His followers to be truly righteous as He was truly righteous.
Jesus calls His followers to be one with God as He was one with God.

There is no "total depravity of man" in the gospel preached by Jesus.
There is no "vicarious atonement for the forgiveness of sins" in the gospel preached by Jesus.
There is no "imputed righteousness" in the gospel preached by Jesus.
There is no "if you have faith in the redemptive death and resurrection of Christ you will receive eternal life and live in the Kingdom" in the gospel preached by Jesus.

Christianity seems to have a very different gospel based on the theology of Paul and others as its foundation. This is where your question seems to be rooted.

Perhaps you can answer my question from the OP:
How can a standard of repentance that is lower than that set by God and that is consistent with the gospel preached by Jesus during His ministry reasonably be justified?
 

Algernon

Active member
the OT prophets are today ignored as they were in there own day.

No one wants to die to sin. Instead the modern invention is ‘I am saved already’

(while still living in the carnal self.)
(and though still living on this fallen earth which is not His).
As is the gospel preached by Jesus.
 

Algernon

Active member
Here lies your problem.....all christians sin. You sin. I sin. The theology you preach condemns everyone.
Actually the gospel preached by Jesus does not condemn everyone.

John 8
34Jesus answered them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, everyone who commits sin is the slave of sin."
31 ...If you abide in My word, then you are truly disciples of Mine; 32and you will know the truth, and the truth will make you free.”
36So if the Son makes you free, you will be free indeed. "
35The slave does not remain in the house forever; the son does remain forever.
51Truly, truly, I say to you, if anyone keeps My word he will never see death.”

Evidently you do not believe Jesus. Nor do you believe God as outlined in the OP
 

York

Active member
Perhaps the best way to go about answering your question is move up a couple levels of abstraction.

As I explained in the other thread, I advocate for the gospel preached by Jesus. From the beginning of His ministry through His death, Jesus preached His gospel. The New Covenant is contained in the gospel preached by Jesus.

As Jesus preached His gospel, He taught salvation through righteousness. No one who commits sin is truly righteous.

According to the gospel preached by Jesus:
One must be truly righteous for “salvation”.
One must be truly righteous for “eternal life”.
One must be truly righteous to live in the “Kingdom of God”.
Only the truly righteous have been "born of the spirit" / "born from above".
Only the truly righteous receive the "spirit of truth".

Jesus calls His followers to be truly righteous as He was truly righteous.
Jesus calls His followers to be one with God as He was one with God.

There is no "total depravity of man" in the gospel preached by Jesus.
There is no "vicarious atonement for the forgiveness of sins" in the gospel preached by Jesus.
There is no "imputed righteousness" in the gospel preached by Jesus.
There is no "if you have faith in the redemptive death and resurrection of Christ you will receive eternal life and live in the Kingdom" in the gospel preached by Jesus.

Christianity seems to have a very different gospel based on the theology of Paul and others as its foundation. This is where your question seems to be rooted.

Perhaps you can answer my question from the OP:
How can a standard of repentance that is lower than that set by God and that is consistent with the gospel preached by Jesus during His ministry reasonably be justified?
Just before I get to this (whenever I get to this), there is no gospel preached by Jesus. There is the gospel according to (as it rightly put) Matthew, Mark, Luke and John.

If you don't, and you apparently don't, accept Paul as the inspired word of God, why would you accept the aforemention gang of four?
 

CrowCross

Well-known member
Actually the gospel preached by Jesus does not condemn everyone.

John 8
34Jesus answered them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, everyone who commits sin is the slave of sin."
31 ...If you abide in My word, then you are truly disciples of Mine; 32and you will know the truth, and the truth will make you free.”
36So if the Son makes you free, you will be free indeed. "
35The slave does not remain in the house forever; the son does remain forever.
51Truly, truly, I say to you, if anyone keeps My word he will never see death.”

Evidently you do not believe Jesus. Nor do you believe God as outlined in the OP
So, what exactly is meant by...."if anyone keeps My word"? Have you kept Jesus word?
 

Algernon

Active member
Just before I get to this (whenever I get to this), there is no gospel preached by Jesus. There is the gospel according to (as it rightly put) Matthew, Mark, Luke and John.

When Jesus began His ministry he quoted from the Book of Isaiah:
Luke 4
16And He came to Nazareth, where He had been brought up; and as was His custom, He entered the synagogue on the Sabbath, and stood up to read. 17And the book of the prophet Isaiah was handed to Him. And He opened the book and found the place where it was written,
18“THE SPIRIT OF THE LORD IS UPON ME,
BECAUSE HE ANOINTED ME TO PREACH THE GOSPEL TO THE POOR.
HE HAS SENT ME TO PROCLAIM RELEASE TO THE CAPTIVES,
AND RECOVERY OF SIGHT TO THE BLIND,
TO SET FREE THOSE WHO ARE OPPRESSED,
19TO PROCLAIM THE FAVORABLE YEAR OF THE LORD.”
20And He closed the book, gave it back to the attendant and sat down; and the eyes of all in the synagogue were fixed on Him. 21And He began to say to them, “Today this Scripture has been fulfilled in your hearing.”

In doing so, Jesus declared the purposes for which He is the Christ - which basically boils down to the following three things:
1) To preach His gospel - These are the words He spoke while preaching His gospel.
2) To give sight to the blind - To open the eyes of those blind to the will of God which Jesus explained in His gospel.
3) To set free the captives - To FREE those who abide in His word from the slavery of committing sin (see John 8). To FREE those who abide in His gospel.
Note that Jesus was NOT anointed to serve as a "sacrificial lamb" as a means for vicarious atonement.

From the beginning of his ministry through His death, Jesus did exactly what He anointed to do. The gospel preached by Jesus is the true gospel.

Jesus was anointed to preach the gospel. Not Paul. Not the "gang of four".
Paul taught his own gospel about Jesus which he even called HIS gospel. The underlying concepts of Paul's gospel are almost diametrically opposed to the underlying concepts of the gospel preached by Jesus.
The "gang of four" told the "gospel story" - which is basically "Jesus did this, Jesus did that" - plus added their own commentary.

If you don't, and you apparently don't, accept Paul as the inspired word of God, why would you accept the aforemention gang of four?
Correct. I don't accept Paul's gospel.
I don't accept much of the "gospel story" the "gang of four" wrapped around the words Jesus spoke while preaching His gospel.

By and large, I find the gospel preached by Jesus to be reasonably sound and reasonably coherent within itself. I don't share that view of the mythology and beliefs that the NT writers wrapped around them. At best, they can merely echo His words. At worst, they deviate from His words and at times substantially so.

The truth in the gospel preached by Jesus still rings out loud and clear despite the corruptions that were introduced by the NT writers. The core of His gospel is contained in the parables, explanations of the parables, the Sermon on the Mount, passages where Jesus is explicitly describing the Kingdom and what living in the Kingdom entails, passages where Jesus is explicitly describing what is required for "eternal life" / living in the Kingdom etc. In short, passages where Jesus is explicitly preaching the vision of His gospel.
 
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York

Active member
When Jesus began His ministry he quoted from the Book of Isaiah:
Luke 4
16And He came to Nazareth, where He had been brought up; and as was His custom, He entered the synagogue on the Sabbath, and stood up to read. 17And the book of the prophet Isaiah was handed to Him. And He opened the book and found the place where it was written,
18“THE SPIRIT OF THE LORD IS UPON ME,
BECAUSE HE ANOINTED ME TO PREACH THE GOSPEL TO THE POOR.
HE HAS SENT ME TO PROCLAIM RELEASE TO THE CAPTIVES,
AND RECOVERY OF SIGHT TO THE BLIND,
TO SET FREE THOSE WHO ARE OPPRESSED,
19TO PROCLAIM THE FAVORABLE YEAR OF THE LORD.”
20And He closed the book, gave it back to the attendant and sat down; and the eyes of all in the synagogue were fixed on Him. 21And He began to say to them, “Today this Scripture has been fulfilled in your hearing.”

In doing so, Jesus declared the purposes for which He is the Christ - which basically boils down to the following three things:
1) To preach His gospel - These are the words He spoke while preaching His gospel.
2) To give sight to the blind - To open the eyes of those blind to the will of God which Jesus explained in His gospel.
3) To set free the captives - To FREE those who abide in His word from the slavery of committing sin (see John 8). To FREE those who abide in His gospel.
Note that Jesus was NOT anointed to serve as a "sacrificial lamb" as a means for vicarious atonement.

From the beginning of his ministry through His death, Jesus did exactly what He anointed to do. The gospel preached by Jesus is the true gospel.

Jesus was anointed to preach the gospel. Not Paul. Not the "gang of four".
Paul taught his own gospel about Jesus which he even called HIS gospel. The underlying concepts of Paul's gospel are almost diametrically opposed to the underlying concepts of the gospel preached by Jesus.
The "gang of four" told the "gospel story" - which is basically "Jesus did this, Jesus did that" - plus added their own commentary.


Correct. I don't accept Paul's gospel.
I don't accept much of the "gospel story" the "gang of four" wrapped around the words Jesus spoke while preaching His gospel.

By and large, I find the gospel preached by Jesus to be reasonably sound and reasonably coherent within itself. I don't share that view of the mythology and beliefs that the NT writers wrapped around them. At best, they can merely echo His words. At worst, they deviate from His words and at times substantially so.

The truth in the gospel preached by Jesus still rings out loud and clear despite the corruptions that were introduced by the NT writers. The core of His gospel is contained in the parables, explanations of the parables, the Sermon on the Mount, passages where Jesus is explicitly describing the Kingdom and what living in the Kingdom entails, passages where Jesus is explicitly describing what is required for "eternal life" / living in the Kingdom etc. In short, passages where Jesus is explicitly preaching the vision of His gospel.
But the problem is that as soon as you start ripping pages out of the bible, you have to have a basis for it.

You can't take Jesus words as Jesus' words. They can have been altered, added and subtracted to in the same way you suppose the authors who recorded them did in the surrounding text.

To suppose them Jesus' words necessites assumption of inspiration. Gods hand in the assembly of scripture
And so Paul included.


Aside from the above, seemingly self-refuting issue you cite coherancy as it appears to you as a basis for the ripping out of various pages

Which opens up the discussion as to whether the whole, unripped version is coherent. Can we align Jesus and the rest.

A discussion to be had. What aspect of Paul, say, do you find incoherent with Jesus. Note that Paul expanding and unpacking might introduce words that Jesus didn't use. Which doesn't mean incoherent of itself.

If Jesus set an impossible bar for a works salvation, for example, Paul saying the works bar was impossible to surmount is expanding. But its not incoherent.
 

Algernon

Active member
Perhaps things will go smoother if we take one topic at a time.

But the problem is that as soon as you start ripping pages out of the bible, you have to have a basis for it.
It's not like there's no basis for abiding in the gospel preached by Jesus. For starters, as I pointed out: "Jesus was anointed to preach the gospel. Not Paul. Not the 'gang of four'." It's remarkable how many call Jesus "Christ", yet seemingly have no idea that "Christ" means "anointed one" and the purposes for which Jesus says He was anointed.

Also consider that, while Jesus preached His gospel, from the beginning of His ministry through His death, perhaps the most prevalent theme of what Jesus taught is the importance of His word. The word He spoke while He preached His gospel:
Hearing His word. Not Paul's word. Not the "gang of four"'s word, but HIS word.
Not just hearing His word, but understanding His word.
Not just understanding His word, but believing His word.
Not just believing His word, but following His word.
Not just following His word, but keeping His word.
Not just keeping His word, but abiding in His word.

Jesus went on and on about it. He even went so far as to say thing like the following:

John 6
63“It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh profits nothing; the words that I have spoken to you are spirit and are life.

It is HIS word that "are spirit and are life". Note that it's "have spoken", past tense.

John 8
34Jesus answered them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, everyone who commits sin is the slave of sin."
31 ...If you abide in My word, then you are truly disciples of Mine; 32and you will know the truth, and the truth will make you free.”
51Truly, truly, I say to you, if anyone keeps My word he will never see death.

Only those who abide in HIS word are His true disciples, . Those who keep HIS word "will never see death".
Also note that Jesus says that those who abide in HIS word will be made free from committing sin. Not "forgiven" for committing sin, but FREE.

John 12
48“He who rejects Me and does not receive My sayings, has one who judges him; the word I spoke is what will judge him at the last day.

It is by HIS word that everyone "will be judged". Not Paul's word. Not the "gang of four"'s word. HIS word. Note that it's "spoke", once again past tense.

John 14
23...If anyone loves Me, he will keep My word; and My Father will love him, and We will come to him and make Our abode with him.

Only those who keep HIS word love Jesus. Only those who keep HIS word will His Father love. Only those who keep HIS word will have Jesus and His Father make Their abode with them.

If that isn't enough, there are many more passages. Need I go on?

If you disagree with any of the above, by all means make your best case.
 
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York

Active member
Perhaps things will go smoother if we take one topic at a time.


It's not like there's no basis for abiding in the gospel preached by Jesus. For starters, as I pointed out: "Jesus was anointed to preach the gospel. Not Paul. Not the 'gang of four'." It's remarkable how many call Jesus "Christ", yet seemingly have no idea that "Christ" means "anointed one" and the purposes for which Jesus says He was anointed.

Also consider that, while Jesus preached His gospel, from the beginning of His ministry through His death, perhaps the most prevalent theme of what Jesus taught is the importance of His word. The word He spoke while He preached His gospel:
Hearing His word. Not Paul's word. Not the "gang of four"'s word, but HIS word.
Not just hearing His word, but understanding His word.
Not just understanding His word, but believing His word.
Not just believing His word, but following His word.
Not just following His word, but keeping His word.
Not just keeping His word, but abiding in His word.

Jesus went on and on about it. He even went so far as to say thing like the following:

John 6
63“It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh profits nothing; the words that I have spoken to you are spirit and are life.

It is HIS word that "are spirit and are life". Note that it's "have spoken", past tense.

John 8
34Jesus answered them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, everyone who commits sin is the slave of sin."
31 ...If you abide in My word, then you are truly disciples of Mine; 32and you will know the truth, and the truth will make you free.”
51Truly, truly, I say to you, if anyone keeps My word he will never see death.

Only those who abide in HIS word are His true disciples, . Those who keep HIS word "will never see death".
Also note that Jesus says that those who abide in HIS word will be made free from committing sin. Not "forgiven" for committing sin, but FREE.

John 12
48“He who rejects Me and does not receive My sayings, has one who judges him; the word I spoke is what will judge him at the last day.

It is by HIS word that everyone "will be judged". Not Paul's word. Not the "gang of four"'s word. HIS word. Note that it's "spoke", once again past tense.

John 14
23...If anyone loves Me, he will keep My word; and My Father will love him, and We will come to him and make Our abode with him.

Only those who keep HIS word love Jesus. Only those who keep HIS word will His Father love. Only those who keep HIS word will have Jesus and His Father make Their abode with them.

If that isn't enough, there are many more passages. Need I go on?

If you disagree with any of the above, by all means make your best case.
When we get going I will be reviewing all your written as your position will contained within.

But you've missed my point. According to means Jesus words according to the recorder of them.

The gang of four.

You cannot, on the one hand suppose the gang of four are accurately recording the anointed one and, on the other hand dismiss what else they have to say.

Which is what you appear to want to be able to do.

If you cite inspiration of the recorded words of Jesus, such that those word can be taken as..er..gospel, why not inspiration for what else the recorders have to say. And also why not Paul part of it.

You can't pick and choose your inspired bits. Or if you do you need a reason
 

Algernon

Active member
When we get going I will be reviewing all your written as your position will contained within.

But you've missed my point. According to means Jesus words according to the recorder of them.

The gang of four.

You cannot, on the one hand suppose the gang of four are accurately recording the anointed one and, on the other hand dismiss what else they have to say.

Which is what you appear to want to be able to do.

If you cite inspiration of the recorded words of Jesus, such that those word can be taken as..er..gospel, why not inspiration for what else the recorders have to say. And also why not Paul part of it.

You can't pick and choose your inspired bits. Or if you do you need a reason
If you cite inspiration of the recorded words of Jesus, such that those word can be taken as..er..gospel, why not inspiration for what else the recorders have to say. And also why not Paul part of it.

You can't pick and choose your inspired bits. Or if you do you need a reason


I've given you some of the reasons for accepting Jesus' words and rejecting the words of Paul and the "gang of four". If you want to refute the reasons given, then refute the actual reasons given in my posts instead of trying to refute it based on an illogical belief on your part that it's not possible for Jesus' words to be "inspired" without the surrounding text also being "inspired".

From the beginning of His ministry through His death, Jesus preached His gospel. Either the words spoken at that time were "inspired" or the weren't. Presumably you agree that they were inspired. Followers of Jesus no doubt memorized and wrote down those words - Q source is a possible document - given that Jesus repeatedly and explicitly emphasized the importance of keeping His commandments and abiding in His word amongst other things. If someone today were to take the words spoken by Jesus while He preached His gospel and wove them into a narrative that takes place in a galaxy far far away, they'd still be "inspired" regardless of the surrounding text. Jesus' words were "inspired" at the time of the telling.

You cannot, on the one hand suppose the gang of four are accurately recording the anointed one and, on the other hand dismiss what else they have to say.

This is a trivial issue. You say this as if you believe it is outside the realm of possibility for an individual to accurately transcribe the words spoken by another even if his views don't coincide with the views being transcribed. People do it all the time: journalists that quote politicians and even atheists that quote Jesus as examples.
 
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