What is the True Meaning of Matthew 16: 18-19?

mica

Well-known member
ding said:
When I read the op it appears to me that the poster has settled an issue of the Christian faith based on his own personal interpretation of scripture.

If an issue of the Christian faith is settled on personal interpretations doesn't that make it the final authority?
so you don't understand the OP anymore than you do scripture...

try reading the OP again - as it is writen.

the OP asks a question. It doesn't give an answer
 
D

ding

Guest
NOT!
Here's a question for you ding, and also for other Roman Catholics in this forum:
'How do men and women enter into the Kingdom of God?'
Peter kind of explains it for us in his second letter:

II Peter 1:3-11, "His divine power has given us everything needed for life and godliness, through the knowledge of him who called us by* his own glory and goodness. Thus he has given us, through these things, his precious and very great promises, so that through them you may escape from the corruption that is in the world because of lust, and may become participants in the divine nature. For this very reason, you must make every effort to support your faith with goodness, and goodness with knowledge, and knowledge with self-control, and self-control with endurance, and endurance with godliness, and godliness with mutual affection, and mutual affection with love. For if these things are yours and are increasing among you, they keep you from being ineffective and unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ. For anyone who lacks these things is short-sighted and blind, and is forgetful of the cleansing of past sins. Therefore, brothers and sisters, be all the more eager to confirm your call and election, for if you do this, you will never stumble. For in this way, entry into the eternal kingdom of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ will be richly provided for you."
 

RayneBeau

Well-known member
yes, catholics are bound by the man made burdens taught by the RCC.

they know nothing of the freedom in Christ.
The RCC apparently does not want it's followers to know the simplicity of Jesus authorizing His disciples to preach repentance for sins in His name to all the nations. "Thus it is written, that the Christ should suffer and rise again from the dead the dead the third day; and that repentance for forgiveness of sin should be proclaimed in His name to all the nations, beginning from Jerusalem." Luke 24:20-21
 

1Thess521

Well-known member
Peter kind of explains it for us in his second letter:

II Peter 1:3-11, "His divine power has given us everything needed for life and godliness, through the knowledge of him who called us by* his own glory and goodness. Thus he has given us, through these things, his precious and very great promises, so that through them you may escape from the corruption that is in the world because of lust, and may become participants in the divine nature. For this very reason, you must make every effort to support your faith with goodness, and goodness with knowledge, and knowledge with self-control, and self-control with endurance, and endurance with godliness, and godliness with mutual affection, and mutual affection with love. For if these things are yours and are increasing among you, they keep you from being ineffective and unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ. For anyone who lacks these things is short-sighted and blind, and is forgetful of the cleansing of past sins. Therefore, brothers and sisters, be all the more eager to confirm your call and election, for if you do this, you will never stumble. For in this way, entry into the eternal kingdom of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ will be richly provided for you."

FIRST: the Greek is about the quality of the entrance (as in richly welcomed)

SECOND: Peter is writing to the Elect:
Is it you view that it is possible the Elect will not enter the eternal Kingdom?
 

RayneBeau

Well-known member
Peter kind of explains it for us in his second letter:

II Peter 1:3-11, "His divine power has given us everything needed for life and godliness, through the knowledge of him who called us by* his own glory and goodness. Thus he has given us, through these things, his precious and very great promises, so that through them you may escape from the corruption that is in the world because of lust, and may become participants in the divine nature. For this very reason, you must make every effort to support your faith with goodness, and goodness with knowledge, and knowledge with self-control, and self-control with endurance, and endurance with godliness, and godliness with mutual affection, and mutual affection with love. For if these things are yours and are increasing among you, they keep you from being ineffective and unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ. For anyone who lacks these things is short-sighted and blind, and is forgetful of the cleansing of past sins. Therefore, brothers and sisters, be all the more eager to confirm your call and election, for if you do this, you will never stumble. For in this way, entry into the eternal kingdom of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ will be richly provided for you."
ding: "all things pertaining to life are granted through a knowledge of God (2 Peter 1:3) . . . . and thus those who refuse to acknowledge God and the truth about Him will be led into futility and error in all fields of thought.
 
D

ding

Guest
What on earth are you talking about ding? o_O

This is exactly how my OP was stated:
If, in Matthew 16:18-19 and John 20:23, the Lord Jesus Christ was not giving Peter and the other disciples authority to forgive sins through confession and penance, what exactly was he authorizing them to do?

That is NOT a personal interpretation, that is posing a question. Do you read the Bible much? :unsure:
You have concluded that Jesus didn't give Peter and the other disciples authority to forgive sins through confession and penance.

James clearly states in his letter that we are to, "Therefore confess your sins to one another, and pray for one another, so that you may be healed. The prayer of the righteous is powerful and effective."
 
D

ding

Guest
ding: "all things pertaining to life are granted through a knowledge of God (2 Peter 1:3) . . . . and thus those who refuse to acknowledge God and the truth about Him will be led into futility and error in all fields of thought.
What does that have to do with your original question?
 

mica

Well-known member
Peter kind of explains it for us in his second letter:

II Peter 1:3-11, "His divine power has given us everything needed for life and godliness, through the knowledge of him who called us by* his own glory and goodness. Thus he has given us, through these things, his precious and very great promises, so that through them you may escape from the corruption that is in the world because of lust, and may become participants in the divine nature. For this very reason, you must make every effort to support your faith with goodness, and goodness with knowledge, and knowledge with self-control, and self-control with endurance, and endurance with godliness, and godliness with mutual affection, and mutual affection with love. For if these things are yours and are increasing among you, they keep you from being ineffective and unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ.
If as Peter said He had given us everything needed for life and godliness etc way back in Peter's time then there is nothing more that needs to be added even today. or are you saying (by believing the teachings of the RCC) that Peter was lying when he wrote that? Did they not in NT time have all knowledge given to them that was necessary to be saved / born again?

It is by God calling us to Him thru Christ that we become His. It is not by man. There was no 'by means of ' belonging to a particular group of men, no signing of a form to be included in any special group of men, no professing of any beliefs not taught by Jesus or an apostle, not getting wet by water baptism etc - such things as the RCC teaches.

For anyone who lacks these things is short-sighted and blind, and is forgetful of the cleansing of past sins.
catholics lack the heart knowledge of the things Peter wrote in those verses above.

Therefore, brothers and sisters, be all the more eager to confirm your call and election, for if you do this, you will never stumble. For in this way, entry into the eternal kingdom of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ will be richly provided for you."
he is addressing those people as brothers and sisters, so Jewish believers...

and he is telling them in the above verses that entry into God's kingdom is thru accepting His calling to Himself - which He does when He changes our hearts and we accept Christ as Lord and Savior.

Did I miss something in those verses where he tells the people to join the RCC? submit to himself (Peter)? eat a wafer? to pray to Mary or any other people (dead or alive)? did he list any of the other catholic requirements?
 

1Thess521

Well-known member
I don't know Greek so you maybe correct.


Yes and no. I considered this issue to be like quantum mechanics.
well : its time you learn the answer:

Is possible for the Elect will not to be save?

from http://www.biblicalcatholic.com/apologetics/num21.htm
"By definition, the ELECT are those whom God infallibly foresees will be saved (Rom 8:28-30). By this definition, it is impossible for the elect to be lost, precisely because God foreknows who will not be lost. "

Bible study 101:
Q: To whom is the author writing?
A: in 2 Peter is written to the Elect

now follow along:
if the Elect cannot be lost
and if Peter is writing to the Elect
then any interpretation of 2 Peter that has the Elect loosing their salvation must be in error
 

mica

Well-known member
RayneBeau said:
ding: "all things pertaining to life are granted through a knowledge of God (2 Peter 1:3) . . . . and thus those who refuse to acknowledge God and the truth about Him will be led into futility and error in all fields of thought.

What does that have to do with your original question?
it's in reply to your post (#42). so why did you post what you did in your post #42?
 
D

ding

Guest
it's in reply to your post (#42). so why did you post what you did in your post #42?
Here is the original question I was addressing:

'How do men and women enter into the Kingdom of God?'
 

1Thess521

Well-known member
Here is the original question I was addressing:

'How do men and women enter into the Kingdom of God?'
“Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven
 

RayneBeau

Well-known member
You have concluded that Jesus didn't give Peter and the other disciples authority to forgive sins through confession and penance.

James clearly states in his letter that we are to, "Therefore confess your sins to one another, and pray for one another, so that you may be healed. The prayer of the righteous is powerful and effective."
Again ding, I did not "conclude" anything of the sort in my OP or anywhere in that post. I've explained this to you before, and I see that Mica also tried to show you that there is no "conclusion" made. Sorry, but your perception and comprehension is way, way off, but you still choose to believe it. 🤷‍♀️
 

RayneBeau

Well-known member
That is what the Catholic Church teaches.
Only God can forgive sins is true, but the official teaching of the Roman Catholic Church adds on much to that, that God NEVER said, nor did Jesus ever teach. From God's Word it is very clear that the apostles understood the commission from Jesus to mean they had the authority to proclaim the forgiveness of sins to sinners by the heralding of the gospel message. It has nothing to do with the man-formulated authority of Roman Catholic priests to hear confession and through absolution to forgive sins and assign penances. :rolleyes:
 
D

ding

Guest
Only God can forgive sins is true, but the official teaching of the Roman Catholic Church adds on much to that, that God NEVER said, nor did Jesus ever teach. From God's Word it is very clear that the apostles understood the commission from Jesus to mean they had the authority to proclaim the forgiveness of sins to sinners by the heralding of the gospel message. It has nothing to do with the man-formulated authority of Roman Catholic priests to hear confession and through absolution to forgive sins and assign penances. :rolleyes:
God didn't place scripture alone as the final authority for his church.
 

1Thess521

Well-known member
God didn't place scripture alone as the final authority for his church.
just checking
you keep using the word "final": while others use the word "highest"
in your mind: is there a difference?

IOW does this mean the same thing to you or not?

God didn't place scripture alone as the final authority for his church
and
God didn't place scripture alone as the highest authority for his church
 

1Thess521

Well-known member
God didn't place scripture alone as the final authority for his church.
are you sure?

QUOTE=rldlolbeding;
All Scripture is God breathed (pasa graphe theopneustos) - Yes

Every line of Scripture is infallible and inerrant (Incapable of error. Contains no errors) - Yes

It is The Truth ( not a truth, not merely correct) - Yes

Anything statement that disagrees with Scripture, by definition must be an error - Yes

It is impossible for Scripture to disagree with God. - Yes

It is impossible for God to disagree with Scripture. - Yes

God speaking from His Throne; Jesus preaching from the Mount, and ALL God breathed writings carry the same EQUAL authority - Yes.


Do Catholics believe that it is a requirement for God to state that He is the highest authority for it to be true? - No

Do Catholics believe that it is a requirement for God breathed writtings to state they are the highest authority for it to be true? - No

Are there any other God breathed writings (graphe theopneustos) not included in the Bible*?
(*that we still have access to) - No

Are there any other writings that can claim every line is infallible and inerrant ? - No

Are there any other writings that it is impossible for God to disagree with? - No

Are there any other writings that carry the EXACT same authority as God speaking from His Throne or Jesus preaching from the Mount? - No


end QUOTE=rldlolbeding;
 
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