What is the True Meaning of Matthew 16: 18-19?

D

ding

Guest
just checking
you keep using the word "final": while others use the word "highest"
in your mind: is there a difference?

IOW does this mean the same thing to you or not?

God didn't place scripture alone as the final authority for his church
and
God didn't place scripture alone as the highest authority for his church
I have heard several words used to describe scripture. I have heard it called the final authority, the sole authority, the highest authority and the ultimate authority.

God didn't place scripture either as the final authority or the highest authority for his church. Either way it doesn't make sense. The Holy Spirit used men to write scripture and the Holy Spirit used men to determine which writings were inspired and which ones were not.
 
D

ding

Guest
are you sure?

QUOTE=rldlolbeding;
All Scripture is God breathed (pasa graphe theopneustos) - Yes

Every line of Scripture is infallible and inerrant (Incapable of error. Contains no errors) - Yes

It is The Truth ( not a truth, not merely correct) - Yes

Anything statement that disagrees with Scripture, by definition must be an error - Yes

It is impossible for Scripture to disagree with God. - Yes

It is impossible for God to disagree with Scripture. - Yes

God speaking from His Throne; Jesus preaching from the Mount, and ALL God breathed writings carry the same EQUAL authority - Yes.


Do Catholics believe that it is a requirement for God to state that He is the highest authority for it to be true? - No

Do Catholics believe that it is a requirement for God breathed writtings to state they are the highest authority for it to be true? - No

Are there any other God breathed writings (graphe theopneustos) not included in the Bible*?
(*that we still have access to) - No

Are there any other writings that can claim every line is infallible and inerrant ? - No

Are there any other writings that it is impossible for God to disagree with? - No


Are there any other writings that carry the EXACT same authority as God speaking from His Throne or Jesus preaching from the Mount? - No


end QUOTE=rldlolbeding;
Yes I am sure that God didn't place scripture alone as the final/highest authority for his church. He established the chair of Peter as the final/highest authority for his church. It is this authority that determined what is scripture and what is not scripture. Sola scriptural Christians don't realize how dependent they are on the authority that Jesus gave to the chair of Peter.
 

1Thess521

Well-known member
I have heard several words used to describe scripture. I have heard it called the final authority, the sole authority, the highest authority and the ultimate authority.

God didn't place scripture either as the final authority or the highest authority for his church. Either way it doesn't make sense. The Holy Spirit used men to write scripture and the Holy Spirit used men to determine which writings were inspired and which ones were not.
thanks for your opinion: here is another:

Better far that I should read with certainty and persuasion of its truth the Holy Scripture, placed on the highest (even the heavenly) pinnacle of authority, and should, without questioning the trustworthiness of its statements, learn from it that men have been either, commended, or corrected, or condemned, than that, through fear of believing that by men, who, though of most praiseworthy excellence, were no more than men, actions deserving rebuke might sometimes be done, I should admit suspicions affecting the trustworthiness of the whole “oracles of God.”
-Augustine, Letters of St. Augustine, Letter 82.2.5

This Mediator [Jesus Christ], having spoken what He judged sufficient first by the prophets, then by His own lips, and afterwards by the apostles, has besides produced the Scripture which is called canonical, which has paramount authority, and to which we yield assent in all matters of which we ought not to be ignorant, and yet cannot know of ourselves.
-St. Augustine, quoted from his City of God, book XI, Chapter 3,
 

1Thess521

Well-known member
Yes I am sure that God didn't place scripture alone as the final/highest authority for his church. He established the chair of Peter as the final/highest authority for his church. It is this authority that determined what is scripture and what is not scripture. Sola scriptural Christians don't realize how dependent they are on the authority that Jesus gave to the chair of Peter.
others do not share you "sureness"
St. Augustine (A.D. 354–430)
De unitate ecclesiae, 10
“Neither dare one agree with catholic bishops if by chance they err in anything, but the result that their opinion is against the canonical Scriptures of God.”

Irenaeus (ca. 150)
Against Heresies 3.1.1
“We have learned from none others the plan of our salvation, than from those through whom the gospel has come down to us, which they did at one time proclaim in public, and, at a later period, by the will of God, handed down to us in the Scriptures, to be the ground and pillar of our faith.”

Clement of Alexandria (d. 215)
The Stromata, 7:16
“But those who are ready to toil in the most excellent pursuits, will not desist from the search after truth, till they get the demonstration from the Scriptures themselves.”

Gregory of Nyssa (d. ca. 395)
On the Holy Trinity NPNF, p. 327
“Let the inspired Scriptures then be our umpire, and the vote of truth will be given to those whose dogmas are found to agree with the Divine words.”

Athanasius (c. 296–373)
Against the Heathen, 1:3
“The holy and inspired Scriptures are fully sufficient for the proclamation of the truth.”
<
The Scriptures being “fully sufficient,” is simply a seed form of sola Scriptura.>

Basil the Great (ca. 329–379)
On the Holy Spirit, 7.16
“We are not content simply because this is the tradition of the Fathers. What is important is that the Fathers followed the meaning of the Scripture.”


Ambrose (A.D. 340–397)
On the Duties of the Clergy, 1:23:102
For how can we adopt those things which we do not find in the holy Scriptures?”
 

1Thess521

Well-known member
Yes I am sure that God didn't place scripture alone as the final/highest authority for his church. He established the chair of Peter as the final/highest authority for his church. It is this authority that determined what is scripture and what is not scripture. Sola scriptural Christians don't realize how dependent they are on the authority that Jesus gave to the chair of Peter.
from rldlolbeding

Are there any other writings that can claim every line is infallible and inerrant ? - No

Are there any other writings that it is impossible for God to disagree with? - No

Are there any other writings that carry the EXACT same authority as God speaking from His Throne or Jesus preaching from the Mount? - No
 
D

ding

Guest
thanks for your opinion: here is another:

Better far that I should read with certainty and persuasion of its truth the Holy Scripture, placed on the highest (even the heavenly) pinnacle of authority, and should, without questioning the trustworthiness of its statements, learn from it that men have been either, commended, or corrected, or condemned, than that, through fear of believing that by men, who, though of most praiseworthy excellence, were no more than men, actions deserving rebuke might sometimes be done, I should admit suspicions affecting the trustworthiness of the whole “oracles of God.”
-Augustine, Letters of St. Augustine, Letter 82.2.5

This Mediator [Jesus Christ], having spoken what He judged sufficient first by the prophets, then by His own lips, and afterwards by the apostles, has besides produced the Scripture which is called canonical, which has paramount authority, and to which we yield assent in all matters of which we ought not to be ignorant, and yet cannot know of ourselves.
-St. Augustine, quoted from his City of God, book XI, Chapter 3,
Do opinions matter or does the final/highest authority matter?
 
D

ding

Guest
others do not share you "sureness"
St. Augustine (A.D. 354–430)
De unitate ecclesiae, 10
“Neither dare one agree with catholic bishops if by chance they err in anything, but the result that their opinion is against the canonical Scriptures of God.”

Irenaeus (ca. 150)
Against Heresies 3.1.1
“We have learned from none others the plan of our salvation, than from those through whom the gospel has come down to us, which they did at one time proclaim in public, and, at a later period, by the will of God, handed down to us in the Scriptures, to be the ground and pillar of our faith.”

Clement of Alexandria (d. 215)
The Stromata, 7:16
“But those who are ready to toil in the most excellent pursuits, will not desist from the search after truth, till they get the demonstration from the Scriptures themselves.”

Gregory of Nyssa (d. ca. 395)
On the Holy Trinity NPNF, p. 327
“Let the inspired Scriptures then be our umpire, and the vote of truth will be given to those whose dogmas are found to agree with the Divine words.”

Athanasius (c. 296–373)
Against the Heathen, 1:3
“The holy and inspired Scriptures are fully sufficient for the proclamation of the truth.”
<
The Scriptures being “fully sufficient,” is simply a seed form of sola Scriptura.>

Basil the Great (ca. 329–379)
On the Holy Spirit, 7.16
“We are not content simply because this is the tradition of the Fathers. What is important is that the Fathers followed the meaning of the Scripture.”


Ambrose (A.D. 340–397)
On the Duties of the Clergy, 1:23:102
For how can we adopt those things which we do not find in the holy Scriptures?”
I guess if there is no consinces then we have to appeal to the final/highest authority - God.
 

1Thess521

Well-known member
Do opinions matter or does the final/highest authority matter?
sure: if you want to play that card so you do not have to address that you are in direct contradiction with Augustine

Ding "I am sure that God didn't place scripture alone as the final/highest authority for his church. "
Ding "God didn't place scripture either as the final authority or the highest authority for his church"

and am I in error if agree with these statements from Augustine?


-Augustine, Letters of St. Augustine, Letter 82.2.5
Better far that I should read with certainty and persuasion of its truth the Holy Scripture, placed on the highest (even the heavenly) pinnacle of authority, and should, without questioning the trustworthiness of its statements, learn from it that men have been either, commended, or corrected, or condemned, than that, through fear of believing that by men, who, though of most praiseworthy excellence, were no more than men, actions deserving rebuke might sometimes be done, I should admit suspicions affecting the trustworthiness of the whole “oracles of God.”

-St. Augustine, quoted from his City of God, book XI, Chapter 3,
This Mediator [Jesus Christ], having spoken what He judged sufficient first by the prophets, then by His own lips, and afterwards by the apostles, has besides produced the Scripture which is called canonical, which has paramount authority, and to which we yield assent in all matters of which we ought not to be ignorant, and yet cannot know of ourselves.
 
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RayneBeau

Well-known member
Yes I am sure that God didn't place scripture alone as the final/highest authority for his church. He established the chair of Peter as the final/highest authority for his church. It is this authority that determined what is scripture and what is not scripture. Sola scriptural Christians don't realize how dependent they are on the authority that Jesus gave to the chair of Peter.
How does the Roman Catholic Church and the Roman Catholic pope submit to the Lordship of Jesus Christ? How does the Roman Catholic pope renounce his autonomy and come under the authority of God's Son?
 
D

ding

Guest
How does the Roman Catholic Church and the Roman Catholic pope submit to the Lordship of Jesus Christ? How does the Roman Catholic pope renounce his autonomy and come under the authority of God's Son?
The Pope has always been under the authority of Jesus.
 

balshan

Well-known member
The Pope has always been under the authority of Jesus.
What a load of hogwash. It is obvious by the behaviour of most the are not under the authority of Jesus. Also, some say he is married to the church, that means he is putting himself in the place of Jesus.
 

RayneBeau

Well-known member
The Pope has always been under the authority of Jesus.
Sorry, but the Roman Catholic pope can't possibly be under the authority of Jesus since he truly believes that in his position as a Roman Catholic pope, that he IS Jesus Christ - visible and ruling on the earth.
 
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