What is Truth?

SteveB

Well-known member
The other day, on an op I was posting in, I made the statement that Jesus IS Truth, based on his claim, in John 14:6.
I AM the Way, the Truth, and the Life. No man can come to the Father, except through me!

I further elaborated on the point, when someone asked the question--- How do you know what truth is.

I know truth when Truth claims match reality.

We can know, historically, Jesus is Truth/True, because his actions, as documented by others, matches the statements he made during his life here on earth.

We can know, now, here, today, in our own lives, when we do what Jesus said, whether he is Truth, based on his interactions with us, in our lives.
 

The Pixie

Well-known member
The other day, on an op I was posting in, I made the statement that Jesus IS Truth, based on his claim, in John 14:6.
...
Can you explain what that actually means. Presumably you do not consider "Jesus" to be a synonym for "truth".
 

SteveB

Well-known member
This approach is susceptible to confirmation bias.
Only for people who do not follow the biblical edict to do what Jesus said.

This is identical to a college student's practice of either doing homework/exams/labs, or just talking about it, and never doing it.

For atheists who claim to have "tried it" but found, have been unable to demonstrate that they actually did what Jesus said.
He was quite clear---- Not everyone who calls me Lord will enter God's Kingdom. But only those who DO the Will of my Father who is in Heaven. Matthew 7:21

Jesus further said--- if anyone loves me, they will keep my teachings, and they will be loved by my Father, and we will come and make our home with them..... John 14:23

So, by all means.... please elaborate on what you think Confirmation Bias is.... It's my understanding that confirmation bias is a set of beliefs based on opinions only, which have no basis, or bearing on factual experience.
 

Algor

Active member
Only for people who do not follow the biblical edict to do what Jesus said.

This is identical to a college student's practice of either doing homework/exams/labs, or just talking about it, and never doing it.

For atheists who claim to have "tried it" but found, have been unable to demonstrate that they actually did what Jesus said.
He was quite clear---- Not everyone who calls me Lord will enter God's Kingdom. But only those who DO the Will of my Father who is in Heaven. Matthew 7:21

Jesus further said--- if anyone loves me, they will keep my teachings, and they will be loved by my Father, and we will come and make our home with them..... John 14:23

So, by all means.... please elaborate on what you think Confirmation Bias is.... It's my understanding that confirmation bias is a set of beliefs based on opinions only, which have no basis, or bearing on factual experience.
Jesus told you to habitually attempt falsification of his teachings, and to vigorously entertain contradictory teachings?

Interesting. But at any rate confirmation bias is what you get when you only look for how well a claim matches reality. In other words, you look for confirmation instead of falsification.

What you also need to do (to avoidsuch bias) is value a lack of matching reality as more ontologically important than any perceived match. Furthermore, you need to entertain the value of alternate explanations.
 
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SteveB

Well-known member
Can you explain what that actually means. Presumably you do not consider "Jesus" to be a synonym for "truth".
Nope. I do not consider Jesus to be a "synonym" for Truth.

I do consider Jesus to be synonymous with Truth, but not in place of.

As I stated.... Jesus IS Truth, because his words match his nature, his character, and his actions.

Truth is not Jesus. I.e., you cannot say--- I believe in Truth, Justice and the American Way (an old ideology from the 50's through the late 60's, which was used, as I recall, in Marvel or DC comics), and think that it's the same as believing in Jesus.
 

CrowCross

Well-known member
John 18:37“Then You are a king!” Pilate said.

“You say that I am a king,” Jesus answered. “For this reason I was born and have come into the world, to testify to the truth. Everyone who belongs to the truth listens to My voice.”

38“What is truth?” Pilate asked.
 

docphin5

Active member
I know truth when Truth claims match reality.
1) Then why do you reject evolution as the best explanation for biological diversity on our planet? Evolution is reality.

2) Then why do you assert that a decomposing dead human being can reassemble his necrotic tissues and fly through the air? That is NOT reality.

No, Steve, your “truth” is not based on reality as you claim, instead, your “truth” is based on what you WANT to believe.

And just because a story is written on paper does not preclude the possibility of the author using allegory, figure, and type for abstract ideas pertaining to cosmic realities. To take a literal meaning of an allegorical story is not “truth” especially when reality refutes a literal meaning. The two points above demonstrate that you believe what you WANT to believe rather than the truth of reality.

Here is what your actions demonstrate, and what you should have said:

”I know truth when truth claims match what I WANT to believe.”
 

Algor

Active member
....

As I stated.... Jesus IS Truth, because his words match his nature, his character, and his actions.

...


As phrased, this turns religion into a species of literary criticism. Jesus is thus conceptually on par with Hamlet or George Babbit: a character in a book described with consistent and accurate psychological insight.
 

The Pixie

Well-known member
Nope. I do not consider Jesus to be a "synonym" for Truth.

I do consider Jesus to be synonymous with Truth, but not in place of.

As I stated.... Jesus IS Truth, because his words match his nature, his character, and his actions.

Truth is not Jesus. I.e., you cannot say--- I believe in Truth, Justice and the American Way (an old ideology from the 50's through the late 60's, which was used, as I recall, in Marvel or DC comics), and think that it's the same as believing in Jesus.
So "Jesus IS Truth" means his words match his nature, his character, and his actions? Okay.

How far have you gone to verify that?

We have a very limited idea of what Jesus did during the three years of his ministry, let alone the rest of his life. similarly, we know very little of what he said. And that is even assuming what we have accurately reflects what he said (for one thing, the gospels were written in Greek, jesus presumably preached in Aramaic.
 

SteveB

Well-known member
Jesus told you to habitually attempt falsification of his teachings, and to vigorously entertain contradictory teachings?

24 “Therefore whoever hears these sayings of Mine, and does them, I will liken him to a wise man who built his house on the rock: 25 and the rain descended, the floods came, and the winds blew and beat on that house; and it did not fall, for it was founded on the rock.
26 “But everyone who hears these sayings of Mine, and does not do them, will be like a foolish man who built his house on the sand: 27 and the rain descended, the floods came, and the winds blew and beat on that house; and it fell. And great was its fall.”

and

16 Jesus answered them and said, “My doctrine is not Mine, but His who sent Me. 17 If anyone wills to do His will, he shall know concerning the doctrine, whether it is from God or whether I speak on My own authority. 18 He who speaks from himself seeks his own glory; but He who seeks the glory of the One who sent Him is true, and no unrighteousness is in Him.​

as well as

20 At that day you will know that I am in My Father, and you in Me, and I in you. 21 He who has My commandments and keeps them, it is he who loves Me. And he who loves Me will be loved by My Father, and I will love him and manifest Myself to him.”​
22 Judas (not Iscariot) said to Him, “Lord, how is it that You will manifest Yourself to us, and not to the world?”​
23 Jesus answered and said to him, “If anyone loves Me, he will keep My word; and My Father will love him, and We will come to him and make Our home with him. 24 He who does not love Me does not keep My words; and the word which you hear is not Mine but the Father’s who sent Me.

so... you tell me.... what do these sound like to you?

Looks to me that whoever wants to know if God is real or not, if Jesus is speaking out his derriere or not, can do what he teaches, and will learn for themselves that Jesus is Truth, and speaks, and does Truth.

The thing I think atheists' and religionists have a problem with is that if they don't experience success, they have proven that God's not real, instead of recognizing that the failure is their own biases, and preconceptions that they're holding on to.

Jesus was quite clear--- if anyone wants to be my follower, they must deny themselves, pick up their cross (instrument of self-death), and follow me.

This is not something that is easily excusable, or dismissable.

He stated--- If you continue in my teachings, then you truly are my followers, and you will know the truth, and the truth will set you free. John 8:31-32

He further stated in John 3:16-21----
16 For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life. 17 For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through Him might be saved.​
18 “He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. 19 And this is the condemnation, that the light has come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil. 20 For everyone practicing evil hates the light and does not come to the light, lest his deeds should be exposed. 21 But he who does the truth comes to the light, that his deeds may be clearly seen, that they have been done in God.”


If you don't take the time to do what Jesus said, and verify that what he said is true, then you're putting yourself into the group of people who prefer their sin, and love to hide it, instead of exposing your life to God, by doing truth.
 

SteveB

Well-known member
As phrased, this turns religion into a species of literary criticism. Jesus is thus conceptually on par with Hamlet or George Babbit: a character in a book described with consistent and accurate psychological insight.
16 For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life. 17 For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through Him might be saved.

18 “He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. 19 And this is the condemnation, that the light has come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil. 20 For everyone practicing evil hates the light and does not come to the light, lest his deeds should be exposed. 21 But he who does the truth comes to the light, that his deeds may be clearly seen, that they have been done in God.”​

This is all you prove by your statement--- that you prefer hiding your sin, and justifying yourself.
And while I acknowledge your belief, and opinions as valid to you, they do not stand to the level of Truth, as it is objectively knowable.

Especially when we're told---
1Th 5:21 NKJV - Test all things; hold fast what is good.
1Th 5:22 NKJV - Abstain from every form of evil.

So.... kudos to you. You've placed yourself in the position of someone who loves darkness, rather than light, refusing to acknowledge your deeds are evil.
 

Algor

Active member
24 “Therefore whoever hears these sayings of Mine, and does them, I will liken him to a wise man who built his house on the rock: 25 and the rain descended, the floods came, and the winds blew and beat on that house; and it did not fall, for it was founded on the rock.
26 “But everyone who hears these sayings of Mine, and does not do them, will be like a foolish man who built his house on the sand: 27 and the rain descended, the floods came, and the winds blew and beat on that house; and it fell. And great was its fall.”

and

16 Jesus answered them and said, “My doctrine is not Mine, but His who sent Me. 17 If anyone wills to do His will, he shall know concerning the doctrine, whether it is from God or whether I speak on My own authority. 18 He who speaks from himself seeks his own glory; but He who seeks the glory of the One who sent Him is true, and no unrighteousness is in Him.​

as well as

20 At that day you will know that I am in My Father, and you in Me, and I in you. 21 He who has My commandments and keeps them, it is he who loves Me. And he who loves Me will be loved by My Father, and I will love him and manifest Myself to him.”​
22 Judas (not Iscariot) said to Him, “Lord, how is it that You will manifest Yourself to us, and not to the world?”​
23 Jesus answered and said to him, “If anyone loves Me, he will keep My word; and My Father will love him, and We will come to him and make Our home with him. 24 He who does not love Me does not keep My words; and the word which you hear is not Mine but the Father’s who sent Me.

so... you tell me.... what do these sound like to you?

Those don't sound anything like "Whatever I say, don't trust it until you have formulated it in such a way as to sharply differentiate the unique predictions of what I say from its contrary, and from alternate sayings, and can empirically test those predictions such that they are subject to falsification". So I'm not sure what you are getting at.


Looks to me that whoever wants to know if God is real or not, if Jesus is speaking out his derriere or not, can do what he teaches, and will learn for themselves that Jesus is Truth, and speaks, and does Truth.

The thing I think atheists' and religionists have a problem with is that if they don't experience success, they have proven that God's not real, instead of recognizing that the failure is their own biases, and preconceptions that they're holding on to.

Jesus was quite clear--- if anyone wants to be my follower, they must deny themselves, pick up their cross (instrument of self-death), and follow me.

This is not something that is easily excusable, or dismissable.

He stated--- If you continue in my teachings, then you truly are my followers, and you will know the truth, and the truth will set you free. John 8:31-32

He further stated in John 3:16-21----
16 For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life. 17 For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through Him might be saved.​
18 “He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. 19 And this is the condemnation, that the light has come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil. 20 For everyone practicing evil hates the light and does not come to the light, lest his deeds should be exposed. 21 But he who does the truth comes to the light, that his deeds may be clearly seen, that they have been done in God.”


If you don't take the time to do what Jesus said, and verify that what he said is true, then you're putting yourself into the group of people who prefer their sin, and love to hide it, instead of exposing your life to God, by doing truth.
Again: the emphasis on verification as opposed to falsification. Wide open to confirmation bias.
You are really digging yourself a methodological hole here, and you don't even seem to know it.
 

Algor

Active member
16 For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life. 17 For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through Him might be saved.

18 “He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. 19 And this is the condemnation, that the light has come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil. 20 For everyone practicing evil hates the light and does not come to the light, lest his deeds should be exposed. 21 But he who does the truth comes to the light, that his deeds may be clearly seen, that they have been done in God.”​

This is all you prove by your statement--- that you prefer hiding your sin, and justifying yourself.
And while I acknowledge your belief, and opinions as valid to you, they do not stand to the level of Truth, as it is objectively knowable.

Especially when we're told---
1Th 5:21 NKJV - Test all things; hold fast what is good.
1Th 5:22 NKJV - Abstain from every form of evil.

So.... kudos to you. You've placed yourself in the position of someone who loves darkness, rather than light, refusing to acknowledge your deeds are evil.

Well OK. Nothing you posted is remotely relevant to what I said but fine with me.
 

SteveB

Well-known member
Well OK. Nothing you posted is remotely relevant to what I said but fine with me.
Of course not. Because if you were actually paying attention, and acknowledged what Truth is, you'd have seen that I included in my statement---

This is all you prove by your statement--- that you prefer hiding your sin, and justifying yourself.
And while I acknowledge your belief, and opinions as valid to you, they do not stand to the level of Truth, as it is objectively knowable.

And I based this statement on the passage out of John 3:16-21.

16 For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life. 17 For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through Him might be saved.

18 “He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. 19 And this is the condemnation, that the light has come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil. 20 For everyone practicing evil hates the light and does not come to the light, lest his deeds should be exposed. 21 But he who does the truth comes to the light, that his deeds may be clearly seen, that they have been done in God.”
 

Lighthearted Atheist

Well-known member
The other day, on an op I was posting in, I made the statement that Jesus IS Truth, based on his claim, in John 14:6.
I AM the Way, the Truth, and the Life. No man can come to the Father, except through me!

I further elaborated on the point, when someone asked the question--- How do you know what truth is.

I know truth when Truth claims match reality.

We can know, historically, Jesus is Truth/True, because his actions, as documented by others, matches the statements he made during his life here on earth.

We can know, now, here, today, in our own lives, when we do what Jesus said, whether he is Truth, based on his interactions with us, in our lives.
Truth is what we can prove to be real. You have to prove it empirically or you cannot know if it is true or not.

How are you able to prove the historical Jesus is true? I have never seen you do this beyond pointing to the Codex Sinaiticus Bible and saying it is true. You also point to the Vedas and Koran and say they are not true without explaining how you proved this.

For you truth is whatever you want it to be. You do not feel the need to prove what you say is true - you just assume it is because you want it to be.

For the rest of the world we like evidence.
 

Torin

Active member
Truth is what we can prove to be real. You have to prove it empirically or you cannot know if it is true or not.

How are you able to prove the historical Jesus is true? I have never seen you do this beyond pointing to the Codex Sinaiticus Bible and saying it is true. You also point to the Vedas and Koran and say they are not true without explaining how you proved this.

For you truth is whatever you want it to be. You do not feel the need to prove what you say is true - you just assume it is because you want it to be.

For the rest of the world we like evidence.
I think a more precise account of truth is: "the recognition of reality."

I am generally in agreement with your post otherwise.
 

SteveB

Well-known member
Those don't sound anything like "Whatever I say, don't trust it until you have formulated it in such a way as to sharply differentiate the unique predictions of what I say from its contrary, and from alternate sayings, and can empirically test those predictions such that they are subject to falsification". So I'm not sure what you are getting at.

It's not asking you to formulate. It's saying--- do, and then you will know for yourself whether what I'd said is true or not.

What I'm stating in this op is not looking for your permission, seeking approval, or agreement.
I'm stating simple fact.

What you do with it is on you, and you alone. If you come follow Jesus, you'll learn for yourself, through action, that what Jesus said is in fact True, and that he is in fact, Truth. But your failure to come follow Jesus will only show that he is correct when he stated---

16 For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life. 17 For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through Him might be saved.​
18 “He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. 19 And this is the condemnation, that the light has come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil. 20 For everyone practicing evil hates the light and does not come to the light, lest his deeds should be exposed. 21 But he who does the truth comes to the light, that his deeds may be clearly seen, that they have been done in God.”​


I get that he, and his teachings are not popular. We're not seeking fame, or popularity. We're doing what Jesus said--- speak the truth, and instruct them in truth, righteousness, ......

Again: the emphasis on verification as opposed to falsification. Wide open to confirmation bias.
You are really digging yourself a methodological hole here, and you don't even seem to know it.
Let me ask you a question here.
If I handed you a key to a car, and said that only by going to this particular car, and inserting that key, into that car's door, and then into that car's ignition will you be able to know if I'm telling you the truth or not, would you ever learn to actually know the truth regarding the key's capabilities, without inserting the key into the door, and ignition?

How would this be leaving me wide open to confirmation bias, regarding the key, and car in question?
 
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