What is Truth?

SteveB

Well-known member
Depends how you do it. Confirmation bias isn't about learning new things and examining them. Its about HOW you gather evidence and HOW you weigh evidence.
Hmm....
So, is reading an acceptable method of gathering evidence? Or is that confirmation bias?
Is taking the time to apply the information contained in the reading materials, to take the practical elements, and apply them, is that an acceptable method of gathering evidence, or is that confirmation bias?
Is taking the time to consider the results of what I'd applied, an acceptable method of weighing the evidence, or is that confirmation bias?
Because if that's all confirmation bias, then it seems to me that all of life's experiences--- growing up, learning, living, etc.... are cases of confirmation bias. College education, employment, cooking, driving, playing games, and numerous other life-activities included.
So, if this is really what you believe is confirmation bias, I find myself wondering if it's not you who has the problem.




We've told you what confirmation bias is. Your initial post suggested that your approach was prone to confirmation bias. So far, I haven't read a response that shows you have a glimmer of understanding the topic. No offense, but the point I rasied is very easily dealt with.
And this is evidence that you think educating one's self, and taking the time to learn is in fact what you believe is confirmation bias.



Atheists are as prone to confirmation bias as any, in my opinion, and no one here has claimed that atheists are immune to it.
then it seems to me that atheists are the ones who are practicing confirmation bias with regards to the bible, and biblical Christianity.

Because the christianity I've been learning about for the past 44 years is nothing like the christianity I grew up with as a child. The God I read about in the bible is far more gracious, loving, caring, and involved than the one I grew up with as a child.
the only miracles I heard about growing up were the ones in the bible, and an occasional one with Fatima, and one or two others.

Everything I've learned, I've learned by reading, and doing, instead of what someone else told me.


So there isn't a lot of irony going around here in that regard.
I think there is.
You guys--- as a whole--- promote ideas, opinions, beliefs, etc.... about the bible which are totally contrary to the biblical narrative, and then when we explain to you the truth, and provide biblical items to support our points, you go off on tirades saying that such things are not true, and spend hours arguing in support of your opinions, beliefs, and ideas, with nothing but your own beliefs regarding them.
And when asked where you get these things from, you can offer nothing to support them, or provide vague, singular references, and build entire belief systems on those singular references.

So.... yeah.... I see loads of irony.




However, such bias is a normal psychological tendency of human beings in general, and like most forms of bias people are much better at spotting it in others than in themselves.
Indeed.... it's curious that Paul, indeed, the Law states this tendency....

1 Therefore you are inexcusable, O man, whoever you are who judge, for in whatever you judge another you condemn yourself; for you who judge practice the same things. 2 But we know that the judgment of God is according to truth against those who practice such things. 3 And do you think this, O man, you who judge those practicing such things, and doing the same, that you will escape the judgment of God? 4 Or do you despise the riches of His goodness, forbearance, and longsuffering, not knowing that the goodness of God leads you to repentance? 5 But in accordance with your hardness and your impenitent heart you are treasuring up for yourself wrath in the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God, 6 who “will render to each one according to his deeds”: 7 eternal life to those who by patient continuance in doing good seek for glory, honor, and immortality; 8 but to those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness—indignation and wrath, 9 tribulation and anguish, on every soul of man who does evil, of the Jew first and also of the Greek; 10 but glory, honor, and peace to everyone who works what is good, to the Jew first and also to the Greek. 11 For there is no partiality with God.​

Back in the old days, when non-christians liked quoting Matthew 7:1 about not judging another, the phrase---- that finger you're pointing at me... it has 3 fingers pointing back at you-- became quite common. It often resulted in their stopping, turning their hand over, and seeing their other 3 fingers held against their hand, actually pointing back at them. This then resulted in other hand gestures, so they could try to avoid culpability of their "finger pointing" practices.

What's curious is that if you guys really believe that others are guilty of confirmation bias, but unwilling to acknowledge it in yourself until someone stops long enough to call you to the carpet about it, and then fumble all over yourself trying to justify yours, then just what do you think you're going to accomplish here?




I am very sure I have been wrong in the past because of it, and I will be again. But even if I am a horrible, terrible, no-good hypocrite for pointing out that what you initially posted was a method prone to such bias, this does not mean that I am wrong. It means that I'm a hypocrite. OK, I'm a hypocrite. Now: how would you guard your method of ascertaining the truth against confirmation bias? This isn't a trap. It's a straightforward question.

Where I come from, educating one's self is a high honor, and to be lauded. I grew up in an era when people who had a library of their own were looked up to, and would often loan out their books, to encourage others to take the t ime to learn, and grow in understanding.

the practice I see with atheists here--- learning is only applauded when the conclusion of the learning is the same as the atheists' conclusions.

If someone comes to another conclusion, which differs from that of the atheist---- GASP! inconceivable! How could you! How DARE you! but..... butt..... butt....... It's not possible that .......

I'd like to say it's amusing to see you guys falling all over yourselves claiming that we've experienced and are practicing confirmation bias, but I think it's insulting..... not to me, but to yourselves. I see a bunch of self-professed-intellectuals, beating themselves with semantic bats, while claiming we're the beaters.

So, let's do it this way.

At this point, my "confirmation bias" is that I read. And I work through applying what I read, because the bible says that the only way to know if what it's saying is true is by doing what it's talking about.

My "confirmation bias" (CB) is that I apply what the bible says to do, in order to know whether what it says is true, or if I'm just practicing--- confirmation bias.

It seems to me that it's atheists are the principal practitioners of CB because they do nothing but give excuses for why none of the bible is true, concoct stories, ideas, beliefs about the bible with nothing more than a single verse, or maybe even a handful of verses, which when put to the test fall apart, but they refuse to acknowledge their thinking is flawed, and instead, double down. they argue the thousand "what if's", providing evident of the truth of the passage--- the eyes of the fool roam to the ends of the earth, but the wise man focuses on what's in front of him.

So..... if you want to be taken seriously, then stop giving us all the what if's.
For those among us who've been following JEsus for more than a decade or two, we've already face a lot of them, have worked through them, or are presently working through them, and have satisfactorily resolved them.

For those among us who have been at this for several decades, we're scratching our heads wondering where you've been.
Biblical directives for knowing the truth are as practical as those directives used by craftsmen in their trades/professions.
We're handed a project, perhaps a set of plans, and told to get it done, in time, and under budget.
Those who are more experienced follow the long-standing practices/habits, and actions of the respective craft.
An outsider telling them they are doing it wrong only raises one question----
ok, what's your basis for telling me this? Are you a trained/skilled craftsman in this trade?
If your answer is no, then you'll be laughed out of the room, and off the project.
 

SteveB

Well-known member
I agree with the statement that truth needs to match to reality.

However you don't know, historically that Jesus is true because that is based mostly on the Bible and much of the Bible does not match reality.
And this is how we learn whether what he said is True or not, helping to clarify the point-- Is Jesus Truth?

We do what he taught.
It's no different than a science experiment, but in this case, I'm not dropping lead balls, and feathers from a tower.
I'm putting into action prayer, reading, reasoning, with statements Jesus made, regarding life, sin, righteousness, judgment, etc....
If those actions result in an identical outcome as Jesus said they would, then I know he spoke the truth. Thereby making him truth.
If they don't, then I know he's full of BS, and not truth.
Over the past nearly 44 years now, I've yet to find a single thing taught in the bible regarding Jesus false.
Everything I've read, and done as it described, has resulted in exactly what it said would take place--- both in the affirmative, and in the negative/derogatory.

And I'm quite confident you could talk with any Jesus follower on here, or out in the real world, and they'd state something similar.
 

Algor

Active member
Hmm....
So, is reading an acceptable method of gathering evidence? Or is that confirmation bias?
Is taking the time to apply the information contained in the reading materials, to take the practical elements, and apply them, is that an acceptable method of gathering evidence, or is that confirmation bias?
Is taking the time to consider the results of what I'd applied, an acceptable method of weighing the evidence, or is that confirmation bias?
Because if that's all confirmation bias, then it seems to me that all of life's experiences--- growing up, learning, living, etc.... are cases of confirmation bias. College education, employment, cooking, driving, playing games, and numerous other life-activities included.
So, if this is really what you believe is confirmation bias, I find myself wondering if it's not you who has the problem.
Well, I gave you a few descriptions of what confirmation bias was, and a link, and nothing that you have just talked about has much to do with the topic. Learning, considering, thinking, talking, whatever, all can be done with or without confirmation bias, and none of it comprises confirmation bias. So right now you just seem to be flailing away.

And this is evidence that you think educating one's self, and taking the time to learn is in fact what you believe is confirmation bias.
You do you, SteveB.

then it seems to me that atheists are the ones who are practicing confirmation bias with regards to the bible, and biblical Christianity.

Because the christianity I've been learning about for the past 44 years is nothing like the christianity I grew up with as a child. The God I read about in the bible is far more gracious, loving, caring, and involved than the one I grew up with as a child.
the only miracles I heard about growing up were the ones in the bible, and an occasional one with Fatima, and one or two others.

Everything I've learned, I've learned by reading, and doing, instead of what someone else told me.



I think there is.
You guys--- as a whole--- promote ideas, opinions, beliefs, etc.... about the bible which are totally contrary to the biblical narrative, and then when we explain to you the truth, and provide biblical items to support our points, you go off on tirades saying that such things are not true, and spend hours arguing in support of your opinions, beliefs, and ideas, with nothing but your own beliefs regarding them.
And when asked where you get these things from, you can offer nothing to support them, or provide vague, singular references, and build entire belief systems on those singular references.

So.... yeah.... I see loads of irony.
Cool beans, dude.

Indeed.... it's curious that Paul, indeed, the Law states this tendency....

1 Therefore you are inexcusable, O man, whoever you are who judge, for in whatever you judge another you condemn yourself; for you who judge practice the same things. 2 But we know that the judgment of God is according to truth against those who practice such things. 3 And do you think this, O man, you who judge those practicing such things, and doing the same, that you will escape the judgment of God? 4 Or do you despise the riches of His goodness, forbearance, and longsuffering, not knowing that the goodness of God leads you to repentance? 5 But in accordance with your hardness and your impenitent heart you are treasuring up for yourself wrath in the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God, 6 who “will render to each one according to his deeds”: 7 eternal life to those who by patient continuance in doing good seek for glory, honor, and immortality; 8 but to those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness—indignation and wrath, 9 tribulation and anguish, on every soul of man who does evil, of the Jew first and also of the Greek; 10 but glory, honor, and peace to everyone who works what is good, to the Jew first and also to the Greek. 11 For there is no partiality with God.​

Back in the old days, when non-christians liked quoting Matthew 7:1 about not judging another, the phrase---- that finger you're pointing at me... it has 3 fingers pointing back at you-- became quite common. It often resulted in their stopping, turning their hand over, and seeing their other 3 fingers held against their hand, actually pointing back at them. This then resulted in other hand gestures, so they could try to avoid culpability of their "finger pointing" practices.

What's curious is that if you guys really believe that others are guilty of confirmation bias, but unwilling to acknowledge it in yourself until someone stops long enough to call you to the carpet about it, and then fumble all over yourself trying to justify yours, then just what do you think you're going to accomplish here?

Well, I was asking you how you went about trying to minimize confirmation bias but all you are doing is going on about me,which is a bit weird, but suit yourself.

Where I come from, educating one's self is a high honor, and to be lauded. I grew up in an era when people who had a library of their own were looked up to, and would often loan out their books, to encourage others to take the t ime to learn, and grow in understanding.

the practice I see with atheists here--- learning is only applauded when the conclusion of the learning is the same as the atheists' conclusions.

If someone comes to another conclusion, which differs from that of the atheist---- GASP! inconceivable! How could you! How DARE you! but..... butt..... butt....... It's not possible that .......

I'd like to say it's amusing to see you guys falling all over yourselves claiming that we've experienced and are practicing confirmation bias, but I think it's insulting..... not to me, but to yourselves. I see a bunch of self-professed-intellectuals, beating themselves with semantic bats, while claiming we're the beaters.

Cool.

So, let's do it this way.

At this point, my "confirmation bias" is that I read. And I work through applying what I read, because the bible says that the only way to know if what it's saying is true is by doing what it's talking about.

My "confirmation bias" (CB) is that I apply what the bible says to do, in order to know whether what it says is true, or if I'm just practicing--- confirmation bias.

It seems to me that it's atheists are the principal practitioners of CB because they do nothing but give excuses for why none of the bible is true, concoct stories, ideas, beliefs about the bible with nothing more than a single verse, or maybe even a handful of verses, which when put to the test fall apart, but they refuse to acknowledge their thinking is flawed, and instead, double down. they argue the thousand "what if's", providing evident of the truth of the passage--- the eyes of the fool roam to the ends of the earth, but the wise man focuses on what's in front of him.

So..... if you want to be taken seriously, then stop giving us all the what if's.
For those among us who've been following JEsus for more than a decade or two, we've already face a lot of them, have worked through them, or are presently working through them, and have satisfactorily resolved them.

For those among us who have been at this for several decades, we're scratching our heads wondering where you've been.
Biblical directives for knowing the truth are as practical as those directives used by craftsmen in their trades/professions.
We're handed a project, perhaps a set of plans, and told to get it done, in time, and under budget.
Those who are more experienced follow the long-standing practices/habits, and actions of the respective craft.
An outsider telling them they are doing it wrong only raises one question----
ok, what's your basis for telling me this? Are you a trained/skilled craftsman in this trade?
If your answer is no, then you'll be laughed out of the room, and off the project.

OK, so you don't know what confirmation bias is and you aren't interested in avoiding it. Fine with me.
 
And this is how we learn whether what he said is True or not, helping to clarify the point-- Is Jesus Truth?

We do what he taught.
It's no different than a science experiment, but in this case, I'm not dropping lead balls, and feathers from a tower.
I'm putting into action prayer, reading, reasoning, with statements Jesus made, regarding life, sin, righteousness, judgment, etc....
If those actions result in an identical outcome as Jesus said they would, then I know he spoke the truth. Thereby making him truth.
If they don't, then I know he's full of BS, and not truth.
Over the past nearly 44 years now, I've yet to find a single thing taught in the bible regarding Jesus false.
Everything I've read, and done as it described, has resulted in exactly what it said would take place--- both in the affirmative, and in the negative/derogatory.

And I'm quite confident you could talk with any Jesus follower on here, or out in the real world, and they'd state something similar.
This is problematic, because Jesus did not write the Bible so you don't know with the same certainty as a science experiment. The authorship of the Bible is not known.

How would you know what is false and what is truth regarding Jesus? For example, did he walk on water? (What method do you use to determine the truth of that claim?)
 

SteveB

Well-known member
This is problematic, because Jesus did not write the Bible so you don't know with the same certainty as a science experiment. The authorship of the Bible is not known.

How would you know what is false and what is truth regarding Jesus? For example, did he walk on water? (What method do you use to determine the truth of that claim?)
Well, you can indeed continue to argue, or you can simply take the time to read, learn, apply and then observe the results.

I've been doing this for over 4 decades and it's been working exactly as Jesus said it would.

Just remember that when you die, this door closes for all eternity.
 

docphin5

Active member
Here's your STORY problem....

Show me where this linage turned into a story.

Luke 3:23
Now Jesus himself was about thirty years old when he began his ministry. He was the son, so it was thought, of Joseph, Heli, Matthat, Levi, Melki, Jannai, Joseph, Mattathias, Amos, Nahum, Esli, Naggai, Maath, Mattathias, Semein, Josech, Joda, Joanan, Rhesa, Zerubbabel, Shealtiel, Neri, Melki, Addi, Cosam, Elmadam, Er, Joshua, Eliezer, Jorim, Matthat, Levi, Simeon, Judah, Joseph, Jonam, Eliakim, Melea, Menna, Mattatha, Nathan, David, Jesse, Obed, Boaz, Salmon, Nahshon, Amminadab, Ram, Hezron, Perez, Judah, Jacob, Isaac, Abraham, Terah, Nahor, Serug, Reu, Peleg, Eber, Shelah, Cainan, Arphaxad, Shem, Noah, Lamech, Methuselah, Enoch, Jared, Mahalalel, Kenan, Enosh, Seth, Adam, God.
I used to not know the answer to this but now I have better data from the Book of Jubilees. The patriarchs in scripture before Jacob are types for those who would come after. They are the preexistent ones created in potential who are present later in actuality. For example, Adam, Melchizedek, and others are predicted as coming later. In the Book of Jubilees Jacob is the beginning of the second era, the creation of the true man (Last Adam).

“There are thus three great eras in this book: the creation of the world, its renewal on the creation of the true man, Jacob, and its renewal on the establishment of the sanctuary.” (The Book of Jubilees, RH Charles)

The Book of Jubilees was considered authoritative in the second century BC. It was one of the most important documents used by the Essenes 67 BC in the Dead Sea Scrolls. The Essenes are the first Jewish Christian gnostics.

So many things are explained by the Dead Sea Scrolls, to include the name of the savior, Yashua (English: Joshua). It is a completely different understanding of scripture than Christian orthodoxy. The Roman church covered all of this up. Subsequently, Protestants just keep repeating the same errors not knowing what the original Christians actually believed.

so many things written in the New Testament are explained in the Dead Sea Scrolls But you will never hear it from orthodoxy because they have too much invested in protecting their authority to admit they got it wrong.

You are just their minion repeating orthodoxys errors, clueless about what the original Jewish/Christian/gnostic scriptures meant to them. We have those scriptures now, the ORIGINAL documents with their meaning now. It is not perfectly clear but at least closer to the original intent than orthodoxy. Everything about Christian origins is about to be rewritten but it may take a 100 hundred years before public opinion catches up. So stop repeating error because a better explanation is known. Do you want to go down in history as one of those poor souls deceived by orthodoxy?
 
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SteveB

Well-known member
I think this will fit here nicely.

The psalms on Truth.


Psa 19:9 The fear of Yahweh is clean, enduring forever. Yahweh’s ordinances are true, and righteous altogether.

Psa 105:19 until the time that his word happened, and Yahweh’s word proved him true.



Psa 15:2 He who walks blamelessly and does what is right, and speaks truth in his heart;

Psa 25:5 Guide me in your truth, and teach me, For you are the God of my salvation, I wait for you all day long.

Psa 25:10 All the paths of Yahweh are loving kindness and truth to such as keep his covenant and his testimonies.

Psa 26:3 For your loving kindness is before my eyes. I have walked in your truth.

Psa 30:9 “What profit is there in my destruction, if I go down to the pit? Shall the dust praise you? Shall it declare your truth?

Psa 31:5 Into your hand I commend my spirit. You redeem me, Yahweh, God of truth.

Psa 40:10 I have not hidden your righteousness within my heart. I have declared your faithfulness and your salvation. I have not concealed your loving kindness and your truth from the great assembly.

Psa 40:11 Don’t withhold your tender mercies from me, Yahweh. Let your loving kindness and your truth continually preserve me.

Psa 43:3 Oh, send out your light and your truth. Let them lead me. Let them bring me to your holy hill, to your tents.

Psa 45:4 In your majesty ride on victoriously on behalf of truth, humility, and righteousness. Let your right hand display awesome deeds.

Psa 51:6 Behold, you desire truth in the inward parts. You teach me wisdom in the inmost place.


Psa 52:3 You love evil more than good, lying rather than speaking the truth. Selah.

Psa 54:5 He will repay the evil to my enemies. Destroy them in your truth.

Psa 57:3 He will send from heaven, and save me, he rebukes the one who is pursuing me. Selah. God will send out his loving kindness and his truth.

Psa 57:10 For your great loving kindness reaches to the heavens, and your truth to the skies.

Psa 60:4 You have given a banner to those who fear you, that it may be displayed because of the truth. Selah.


Psa 61:7 He shall be enthroned in God’s presence forever. Appoint your loving kindness and truth, that they may preserve him.

Psa 69:13 But as for me, my prayer is to you, Yahweh, in an acceptable time. God, in the abundance of your loving kindness, answer me in the truth of your salvation.

Psa 85:10 Mercy and truth meet together. Righteousness and peace have kissed each other.

Psa 85:11 Truth springs out of the earth. Righteousness has looked down from heaven.

Psa 86:11 Teach me your way, Yahweh. I will walk in your truth. Make my heart undivided to fear your name.

Psa 86:15 But you, Lord, are a merciful and gracious God, slow to anger, and abundant in loving kindness and truth.

Psa 89:14 Righteousness and justice are the foundation of your throne. Loving kindness and truth go before your face.

Psa 96:13 before Yahweh; for he comes, for he comes to judge the earth. He will judge the world with righteousness, the peoples with his truth.

Psa 111:7 The works of his hands are truth and justice. All his precepts are sure.

Psa 111:8 They are established forever and ever. They are done in truth and uprightness.

Psa 115:1 Not to us, Yahweh, not to us, but to your name give glory, for your loving kindness, and for your truth’s sake.

Psa 119:30 I have chosen the way of truth. I have set your ordinances before me.

Psa 119:43 Don’t snatch the word of truth out of my mouth, for I put my hope in your ordinances.

Psa 119:142 Your righteousness is an everlasting righteousness. Your law is truth.

Psa 119:151 You are near, Yahweh. All your commandments are truth.

Psa 119:160 All of your words are truth. Every one of your righteous ordinances endures forever.

Psa 132:11 Yahweh has sworn to David in truth. He will not turn from it: “I will set the fruit of your body on your throne.

Psa 138:2 I will bow down toward your holy temple, and give thanks to your Name for your loving kindness and for your truth; for you have exalted your Name and your Word above all.

Psa 145:18 Yahweh is near to all those who call on him, to all who call on him in truth.

Psa 146:6 who made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that is in them; who keeps truth forever;



Psa 19:9 The fear of Yahweh is clean, enduring forever. Yahweh’s ordinances are true, and righteous altogether.

Psa 105:19 until the time that his word happened, and Yahweh’s word proved him true.
 

docphin5

Active member
I think this will fit here nicely.

The psalms on Truth.

Taking scriptures literally, as you do, is NOT truth, especially, since we were instructed that their are patterns and types in it for our instruction so that we may discern what is Actually true.

And see that you make them after the pattern for them, which is being shown you on the mountain. (Exodus 25:40)

They serve a copy and shadow of the heavenly things. (Hebrews 8:5)

There is a psalm that says YHWH slayed a dragon at the beginning of creation. (Psalm 74:13). Is that true? Of course not. But does it serve as a type or shadow for a heavenly event relating to our actual cosmos. Yes.

You, like orthodoxy are unable to discern the meaning of scripture and stubbornly defend your falsehoods as true because it is literally written in scripture.

This is what you fail at understanding, Steve. You can read your Bible every day for a thousand years and still may not know what it means.
———
(Psalm 74:13).
You divided the sea by your might;
you broke the heads of the sea monsters on the waters.
You crushed the heads of Leviathan;
you gave him as food for the creatures of the wilderness.
 

SteveB

Well-known member
Taking scriptures literally, as you do, is NOT truth, especially, since we were instructed that their are patterns and types in it for our instruction so that we may discern what is Actually true.

And see that you make them after the pattern for them, which is being shown you on the mountain. (Exodus 25:40)

They serve a copy and shadow of the heavenly things. (Hebrews 8:5)

There is a psalm that says YHWH slayed a dragon at the beginning of creation. (Psalm 74:13). Is that true? Of course not. But does it serve as a type or shadow for a heavenly event relating to our actual cosmos. Yes.

You, like orthodoxy are unable to discern the meaning of scripture and stubbornly defend your falsehoods as true because it is literally written in scripture.

This is what you fail at understanding, Steve. You can read your Bible every day for a thousand years and still may not know what it means.
———
(Psalm 74:13).
You divided the sea by your might;
you broke the heads of the sea monsters on the waters.
You crushed the heads of Leviathan;
you gave him as food for the creatures of the wilderness.
I guess you have a problem here then.

I think the proverb fits well.

Pro 17:24 WEB Wisdom is before the face of one who has understanding, but the eyes of a fool wander to the ends of the earth.

All you've done is to ignore what I stated, cherry pick what fits your bias and then falsely apply it to the psalms I'd provided on truth, and make it appear that no matter what, the bible can't possibly speak Truth.
 
Well, you can indeed continue to argue, or you can simply take the time to read, learn, apply and then observe the results.

I've been doing this for over 4 decades and it's been working exactly as Jesus said it would.

Just remember that when you die, this door closes for all eternity.
Also just remember that millions of others have done the same thing as you and found that its not working a Jesus said it would, rather it works to whatever god they pray to. I think you're only seeing what you want to see.

Please don't assume I have not taken the time to learn, etc.
 

docphin5

Active member
I guess you have a problem here then.

I think the proverb fits well.

Pro 17:24 WEB Wisdom is before the face of one who has understanding, but the eyes of a fool wander to the ends of the earth.

All you've done is to ignore what I stated, cherry pick what fits your bias and then falsely apply it to the psalms I'd provided on truth, and make it appear that no matter what, the bible can't possibly speak Truth.
No, Steve, I said that the actual truth underlies the stories in the Bible. The Wisdom would be what one does with the story. Flip the story inside-out and Wisdom sees heavenly events, cosmic events (1), not earthly fairy tales, for example, YHWH slaying sea monsters and mincing their bodies to feed all beasts of the earth.

The truth is not in its literal meaning which is why you end up rejecting truth in our world, eg, evolution, because you made Biblical superstitions as historical events. You reject actual truth in our reality to cling to myths. If you could take that myth and know its meaning on a cosmic level then you would be closer to the actual truth of reality. The fact of Evolution would not be problematic for you.

To get to that point it helps to know the intent of the original author when he wrote the story. It requires a little digging. You are not going to get there defending grandpas faith or your pastor’s faith, no matter how good a guy he seems.

Seek and you shall find, says the Bible.
———-

1) For we do not wrestle against flesh and blood,
but against the rulers, against the authorities, against the cosmic powers
over this present darkness, against the spiritual forces of evil in the heavenly places. (Ephesians 6:12)
 
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CrowCross

Well-known member
I used to not know the answer to this but now I have better data from the Book of Jubilees. The patriarchs in scripture before Jacob are types for those who would come after. They are the preexistent ones created in potential who are present later in actuality. For example, Adam, Melchizedek, and others are predicted as coming later. In the Book of Jubilees Jacob is the beginning of the second era, the creation of the true man (Last Adam).

“There are thus three great eras in this book: the creation of the world, its renewal on the creation of the true man, Jacob, and its renewal on the establishment of the sanctuary.” (The Book of Jubilees, RH Charles)

The Book of Jubilees was considered authoritative in the second century BC. It was one of the most important documents used by the Essenes 67 BC in the Dead Sea Scrolls. The Essenes are the first Jewish Christian gnostics.

So many things are explained by the Dead Sea Scrolls, to include the name of the savior, Yashua (English: Joshua). It is a completely different understanding of scripture than Christian orthodoxy. The Roman church covered all of this up. Subsequently, Protestants just keep repeating the same errors not knowing what the original Christians actually believed.

so many things written in the New Testament are explained in the Dead Sea Scrolls But you will never hear it from orthodoxy because they have too much invested in protecting their authority to admit they got it wrong.

You are just their minion repeating orthodoxys errors, clueless about what the original Jewish/Christian/gnostic scriptures meant to them. We have those scriptures now, the ORIGINAL documents with their meaning now. It is not perfectly clear but at least closer to the original intent than orthodoxy. Everything about Christian origins is about to be rewritten but it may take a 100 hundred years before public opinion catches up. So stop repeating error because a better explanation is known. Do you want to go down in history as one of those poor souls deceived by orthodoxy?
You said a lot to keep from answering...Show me where this linage turned into a story.
 

SteveB

Well-known member
Also just remember that millions of others have done the same thing as you and found that its not working a Jesus said it would, rather it works to whatever god they pray to. I think you're only seeing what you want to see.

Please don't assume I have not taken the time to learn, etc.
I know that you don't want to know God is real and knowable. You've previously established that in clear and concise terms.

I can say the same thing about automotive mechanics who simply didn't want to do the work. Carpenters who didn't like swinging hammers. Sheet metal mechanics who didn't like slicing their hands on thin steel. Chefs who were allergic to certain foods. And on the list goes.

Jesus was quite clear that if we continue to grow in our learning, understanding, application, and obedience to his teachings, we will be his followers and we will know the truth and the truth will set us free.

So, telling me that people quit is only demonstrating that what Jesus said is true.

You can indeed quit, but that doesn't mean that Jesus wasn't who he said he was nor that what he taught, and did are false.

It only shows that you don't want to know.

So, congratulations on your demonstrating that you only want to hide behind the failures of others who are quitters.
 

SteveB

Well-known member
No, Steve, I said that the actual truth underlies the stories in the Bible. The Wisdom would be what one does with the story. Flip the story inside-out and Wisdom sees heavenly events, cosmic events (1), not earthly fairy tales, for example, YHWH slaying sea monsters and mincing their bodies to feed all beasts of the earth.

The truth is not in its literal meaning which is why you end up rejecting truth in our world, eg, evolution, because you made Biblical superstitions as historical events. You reject actual truth in our reality to cling to myths. If you could take that myth and know its meaning on a cosmic level then you would be closer to the actual truth of reality. The fact of Evolution would not be problematic for you.

To get to that point it helps to know the intent of the original author when he wrote the story. It requires a little digging. You are not going to get there defending grandpas faith or your pastor’s faith, no matter how good a guy he seems.

Seek and you shall find, says the Bible.
———-

1) For we do not wrestle against flesh and blood,
but against the rulers, against the authorities, against the cosmic powers
over this present darkness, against the spiritual forces of evil in the heavenly places. (Ephesians 6:12)
And yet you're not seeking Jesus.

You do however appear to be seeking knowledge of the cosmos.

Jesus said that we're to seek first the Kingdom of God and His Righteousness and all we need will be provided to us.

So, seek first......
God's Kingdom
And
His righteousness.
 

docphin5

Active member
And yet you're not seeking Jesus.

You do however appear to be seeking knowledge of the cosmos.
christ is the sum of all things, according to Paul (Ephesians 1:10). Last I checked the cosmos is included in “all things”. Your so hung up on the Jesus myths that you ignore the teaching of the epistles.

Jesus said that we're to seek first the Kingdom of God and His Righteousness and all we need will be provided to us.
He also said the kingdom of God is within you. I don’t have to look very far to find it.

So, seek first......
God's Kingdom
Done
And
His righteousness.
Done
 

SteveB

Well-known member
christ is the sum of all things, according to Paul (Ephesians 1:10). Last I checked the cosmos is included in “all things”. Your so hung up on the Jesus myths that you ignore the teaching of the epistles.
A rather curious way to reword it.
Actually it's not stated that way.


toward the administration of the fullness of the times, to head up all things in Christ – the things in heaven and the things on earth.

Furthermore, the problem here is that you have clipped the whole statement, and then rewrote it to fit your biases and preconceptions.


Eph 1:2-14 WEB 2 Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ. 3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ, 4 even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we would be holy and without defect before him in love, 5 having predestined us for adoption as children through Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his desire, 6 to the praise of the glory of his grace, by which he freely gave us favor in the Beloved, 7 in whom we have our redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of his grace, 8 which he made to abound toward us in all wisdom and prudence, 9 making known to us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he purposed in him 10 to an administration of the fullness of the times, to sum up all things in Christ, the things in the heavens and the things on the earth, in him. 11 We were also assigned an inheritance in him, having been foreordained according to the purpose of him who does all things after the counsel of his will, 12 to the end that we should be to the praise of his glory, we who had before hoped in Christ. 13 In him you also, having heard the word of the truth, the Good News of your salvation—in whom, having also believed, you were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit, 14 who is a pledge of our inheritance, to the redemption of God’s own possession, to the praise of his glory.

He also said the kingdom of God is within you. I don’t have to look very far to find it.
What do you think that means?
What does Paul tell us about the Kingdom of God?

Done

Done
What do you think the righteousness of God is?
How do we obtain the righteousness of God in our lives?
 
I know that you don't want to know God is real and knowable. You've previously established that in clear and concise terms.

I can say the same thing about automotive mechanics who simply didn't want to do the work. Carpenters who didn't like swinging hammers. Sheet metal mechanics who didn't like slicing their hands on thin steel. Chefs who were allergic to certain foods. And on the list goes.

Jesus was quite clear that if we continue to grow in our learning, understanding, application, and obedience to his teachings, we will be his followers and we will know the truth and the truth will set us free.

So, telling me that people quit is only demonstrating that what Jesus said is true.

You can indeed quit, but that doesn't mean that Jesus wasn't who he said he was nor that what he taught, and did are false.

It only shows that you don't want to know.

So, congratulations on your demonstrating that you only want to hide behind the failures of others who are quitters.
On the contrary if god is in-fact real I most certainly do want to know that. The problem is in demonstrating the claim that he is real. What surprised me the most in the investigation was the utter lack of good evidence and or argument, it was so wishy-washy. When you say "Jesus was clear....." you're not stating a fact, your quoting from the bible, and that is not the same thing.

Re mechanics, carpenters, etc - I don't see how this analogy holds, it's not like a mechanic or carpenter doubts the underling principles of his trade, right?

It's not that I'm quitting, it's that i'm still waiting for convincing evidence. You would think that something so simple would be apparent by now
 

docphin5

Active member
A rather curious way to reword it.
Actually it's not stated that way.


toward the administration of the fullness of the times, to head up all things in Christ – the things in heaven and the things on earth.

Furthermore, the problem here is that you have clipped the whole statement, and then rewrote it to fit your biases and preconceptions.
Go look at all the different translations and the essence is the same: the cosmos is the Son of God.

Here is another.

“And he is before all things, and in him all things hold together.” (colossians 1:17)

The cosmos is included in “all things” and the author here says that it is INSIDE him and that he holds it together! Because matter belongs to his body! Remember, there is only ONE body of Christ that we belong too, says Paul.

In the New Testament, there are the epistles which teach of the “true substance” of Christ. Then there are the Gospel stories written as mythical constructs for initiates, —baby Christians. Once babies grow up they were to be fed the meat of the epistles. But the babies took over the church around the fourth century and forced everyone to only drink milk.

You are still hung up on a myth and living on the milk, Steve, and missing the bigger picture.

The cosmos is the Son of God, and it has a life of its own. We belong to it (every atom of our being) and what is being decided now is if we belong to his Father, the only one who is absolutely good, and the “one true God” isn’t YHWH, for God’s sake. YHWH is also a mythical construct, slaying sea dragons according to the psalmist.

What do you think that means?
What does Paul tell us about the Kingdom of God?
It means that the very atoms in our body belong to the Son of God which is BECOMING a place, a Temple, for our eternal lives. The cosmos is passing from eternity to eternity and we are currently living in a slice of that time. What we will become depends upon whether we jump into the river running through it or stand on the banks and watch it pass us by.
What do you think the righteousness of God is?
How do we obtain the righteousness of God in our lives?
The Holy Spirit is righteousness and his presence in us atones for sin. This is how the Essenes taught it and they were former Jewish temple priests when there was a temple! Orthodoxy has so misconstrued what Paul wrote. They have subordinated his message to myths and superstitions.
 
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