What is Truth?

SteveB

Well-known member
On the contrary if god is in-fact real I most certainly do want to know that.
If this is true, then come follow Jesus.


The problem is in demonstrating the claim that he is real.
You've got this backwards.
We don't demonstrate God is real.
He demonstrates himself to us as real and knowable.
This is the whole point of biblical christianity.
We don't struggle to reach God, he became a man who demonstrated himself to us.

What surprised me the most in the investigation was the utter lack of good evidence and or argument, it was so wishy-washy.
Ironic.
YHVH has been providing evidence of his existence to his people for millennia.

So, I suppose my question is whether you want the evidence he gives, or the evidence that you think there should be?
And if the latter, then did it ever occur to you that you've set the bar for evidence so low you'd not be able to recognize it when it comes.

When you say "Jesus was clear....." you're not stating a fact, your quoting from the bible, and that is not the same thing.
Actually I am stating fact. You just demonstrated that you don't want the evidence YHVH gives, but the evidence of your own narcissism, biases and preconceptions.

Re mechanics, carpenters, etc - I don't see how this analogy holds, it's not like a mechanic or carpenter doubts the underling principles of his trade, right?
Of course you don't see. You close your mind from the truth thus excluding yourself from learning.

It's not that I'm quitting, it's that i'm still waiting for convincing evidence. You would think that something so simple would be apparent by now
Then you will have to decide what you want. The evidence YHVH gives or your myopic opinion of evidence.
 
If this is true, then come follow Jesus.
Not going to follow anyone or any thing unless there is good evidence that the person exists, existed and the words that are attributed too whomever are in fact accurate. In addition the philosophy has to be good and humanitarian.



You've got this backwards.
We don't demonstrate God is real.
He demonstrates himself to us as real and knowable.
This is the whole point of biblical christianity.
We don't struggle to reach God, he became a man who demonstrated himself to us.
No its the correct order. I don't expect you or any person to be able to demonstrate any god because I don't believe such things exist, but you never know and I'm open to the possibility. There is nothing stopping God from proving he exists, because it's recorded in the bible that he has, don't know why he stopped. These demonstrations you speak of, what are they?


Ironic.
YHVH has been providing evidence of his existence to his people for millennia.
Such as?

So, I suppose my question is whether you want the evidence he gives, or the evidence that you think there should be?
And if the latter, then did it ever occur to you that you've set the bar for evidence so low you'd not be able to recognize it when it comes.
Its very simple, if God wants to send me convincing evidence that he will know what it takes to convince me.


Actually I am stating fact. You just demonstrated that you don't want the evidence YHVH gives, but the evidence of your own narcissism, biases and preconceptions.
Its not a fact just because its written in the Bible, period! e.g. The world is older than 10,000 years, there was never a global flood, right?


Of course you don't see. You close your mind from the truth thus excluding yourself from learning.
Well its your analogy, perhaps you could explain it to me then.


Then you will have to decide what you want. The evidence YHVH gives or your myopic opinion of evidence.
I have already told you what is need to believe in anything, evidence, without it you could end up believing in a lie or falsehood.

Give me an example of this evidence from YHVH, let's discuss that.
 

rossum

Well-known member
I know truth when Truth claims match reality.
As do many of us. The reality is that at least one of the following statements must be untrue:

• God is immortal and cannot die.​
• Jesus died on the cross.​
• Jesus is God.​

At most two of those statements can be true. Taken together, the three do not match reality. One (or more) must be false.
 

docphin5

Active member
<snip>
What do you think the righteousness of God is?
How do we obtain the righteousness of God in our lives?


Docphin: The Holy Spirit is righteousness and his presence in us atones for sin. This is how the Essenes taught it and they were former Jewish temple priests when there was a temple! Orthodoxy has so misconstrued what Paul wrote. They have subordinated his message to myths and superstitions.
Addendum: FYI, two references from the Dead Sea Scrolls about atonement. Keep in mind, the Teacher of Righteousness is considered a Jewish priest around 100 B.C. when there was a national Temple.

1) “For only through the spirit pervading God’s true society can there be atonement for a man’s ways, all of his iniquities; thus only can he gaze upon the light of life and so be joined to His truth by his holy spirit, purified from all iniquity.” (Dead Sea Scrolls, wise, pg 119)

2) “In the party of the Yahad there shall be twelve laymen and three priests who are blameless in the light of all that has been revealed from the whole Law, so as to work truth, righteousness, justice, loving-kindness, and humility, with one another. They are to preserve faith in the land with self-control and a broken spirit, atoning for sin by working justice and suffering affliction...

When such men as these come to be in Israel, then shall the party of the Yahad truly be established, an eternal planting, a temple for Israel, and—mystery!—a Holy of Holies for Aaron; true witness to justice, chosen by God’s will to atone for the land and to recompense the wicked their due. They will be the tested wall, the precious cornerstone whose foundations shall neither be broken nor swayed...They shall be an acceptable sacrifice, atoning for the land and ringing in the verdict against evil, so that perversity ceases to exist
.” ( ibid, pg 129)

keep in mind that the Dead Sea Scrolls were written before the story of Jesus even allegedly took place. IOW, the author of GoMark had this original source material available to him when writing the Gospel stories after Paul’s ministry. (Note: Paul never mentions a Jesus of Nazareth.)

Now, with that in mind, read what Paul wrote about himself in fulfillment of the above.

Now I rejoice in my sufferings for your sake, and in my flesh I am filling up what is lacking in Christ's afflictions for the sake of his body, that is, the church, of which I became a minister according to the stewardship from God that was given to me” (Colossians 1:24)

The point is that Paul was one of those three anointed priests atoning for himself and the land by the presence of the inner Holy Spirit. In a sense, Paul was a theophany of Christ Jesus.

”I have been crucified with Christ. It is no longer I who live, but Christ who lives in me.” Galatians 2:20)

Therefore, the author of GoMark, having Dead Sea Scrolls as source material and having the epistles of Paul writes the first Gospel story of “Jesus”. He is canonizing the teachings of Paul as coming from the Lord himself (Dykstra, Mark, the Canonizer of Paul).
 
Last edited:

Lighthearted Atheist

Well-known member
If this is true, then come follow Jesus.
Steve tells us to follow Jesus without any reaon to belive what he says is true. Again.
You've got this backwards.
We don't demonstrate God is real.
He demonstrates himself to us as real and knowable.
This is the whole point of biblical christianity.
We don't struggle to reach God, he became a man who demonstrated himself to us.
When God shows up to demonstrate anything let us know. Right now it is just Steve telling us that God is real and we should all listen to Steve.
Ironic.
YHVH has been providing evidence of his existence to his people for millennia.
You ahve never, not once, proven this.
So, I suppose my question is whether you want the evidence he gives, or the evidence that you think there should be?
And if the latter, then did it ever occur to you that you've set the bar for evidence so low you'd not be able to recognize it when it comes.
When God gives us evidence that will be amazing. Right now it is Steve with a Bible saying "this is from God."
Of course you don't see. You close your mind from the truth thus excluding yourself from learning.
And Steve blames us for not believing him sans evidence.
Then you will have to decide what you want. The evidence YHVH gives or your myopic opinion of evidence.
I am not sure if this is even fun anymore. How many times can you hear someone say, "believe me because I know god" before you just move on?

There is literally nothing here Steve - no wisdom, no evidence, no god - just a normal man who claims he is in touch with the divine.

And your ability to bang this drum and ignore reality is not really interesting anymore.
 

SteveB

Well-known member
Not going to follow anyone or any thing unless there is good evidence that the person exists, existed and the words that are attributed too whomever are in fact accurate. In addition the philosophy has to be good and humanitarian.
the evidence has been in existence since his resurrection.
Your ignorance is the only excuse you have left.

No its the correct order.
Nope.
But if it'll make you feel better, I'll create a bot that'll keep posting the same thing over and over again so you can feel like you're achieving something by beating yourself against the wall.

I don't expect you or any person to be able to demonstrate any god because I don't believe such things exist, but you never know and I'm open to the possibility.
Ah.... ye old--- I'm ignorant, and I like ignorance because ignorance makes me feel superior, like I actually know something that I don't actually know, but I feel good claiming it, to make others think I know what they don't know..... ruse.

Let me know how that works for you in another 100 years.

There is nothing stopping God from proving he exists, because it's recorded in the bible that he has, don't know why he stopped. These demonstrations you speak of, what are they?
He already has proven his existence.
How many times did you need him to provide the best evidence of his existence that could be provided?
Or do you think you're special, and are entitled to more than everyone else was given?



1 The heavens declare the glory of God; And the firmament shows His handiwork.​
2 Day unto day utters speech, And night unto night reveals knowledge.​
3 There is no speech nor language Where their voice is not heard.​
4 Their line has gone out through all the earth, And their words to the end of the world.​

and

19 because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them. 20 For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even His eternal power and Godhead, so that they are without excuse,​

and

“Nevertheless He did not leave Himself without witness, in that He did good, gave us rain from heaven and fruitful seasons, filling our hearts with food and gladness.”

and

Therefore, the One whom you worship without knowing, Him I proclaim to you: 24 God, who made the world and everything in it, since He is Lord of heaven and earth, does not dwell in temples made with hands. 25 Nor is He worshiped with men’s hands, as though He needed anything, since He gives to all life, breath, and all things. 26 And He has made from one blood[fn] every nation of men to dwell on all the face of the earth, and has determined their preappointed times and the boundaries of their dwellings, 27 so that they should seek the Lord, in the hope that they might grope for Him and find Him, though He is not far from each one of us; 28 for in Him we live and move and have our being, as also some of your own poets have said, ‘For we are also His offspring.’ 29 Therefore, since we are the offspring of God, we ought not to think that the Divine Nature is like gold or silver or stone, something shaped by art and man’s devising. 30 Truly, these times of ignorance God overlooked, but now commands all men everywhere to repent, 31 because He has appointed a day on which He will judge the world in righteousness by the Man whom He has ordained. He has given assurance of this to all by raising Him from the dead.”​



The cosmos, creation, food, gladness of heart, satisfaction of being, light, darkness, love, friendship, ..........


Its very simple, if God wants to send me convincing evidence that he will know what it takes to convince me.
He already has.
If you reject the evidence he's chosen to give us, that's on you, and evidence that you prefer your sin over the truth, as Jesus said.

18 “He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. 19 And this is the condemnation, that the light has come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil. 20 For everyone practicing evil hates the light and does not come to the light, lest his deeds should be exposed. 21 But he who does the truth comes to the light, that his deeds may be clearly seen, that they have been done in God.”



Its not a fact just because its written in the Bible, period! e.g. The world is older than 10,000 years, there was never a global flood, right?
It's actually a fact, which is why it was written in the first place.
Well, since you weren't there to observe it, that means you're required to take that claim by faith, which would raise the question of your atheism. I.e., to believe, what nobody else alive today was present to witness, the testimony of others, makes you a believer in that which you don't know by first hand evidence.

Well its your analogy, perhaps you could explain it to me then.
It's not that complicated.
Have you ever done any of those activities?
Have you ever done anything for yourself, or has everything in your life been done for you?

I have already told you what is need to believe in anything, evidence, without it you could end up believing in a lie or falsehood.
And yet you believe that the world is older than the lifespans of the entire human race alive today.


Give me an example of this evidence from YHVH, let's discuss that.
I posted them above.
 

SteveB

Well-known member
As do many of us. The reality is that at least one of the following statements must be untrue:

• God is immortal and cannot die.​
Yep
• Jesus died on the cross.​
yep
• Jesus is God.​
yep
At most two of those statements can be true. Taken together, the three do not match reality. One (or more) must be false.
Well, this just shows that you have a very closed minded view of reality.
I.e., you don't know what you think you know.

  • [1]death as described in the bible is 3 fold.
    • - the death experienced by Adam in the Garden of Eden was that he was cut off/separated from God. The bible described him as a living soul. The living part of the soul died.
    • b- The physical death which now occurs is a separation of body/soul. The human still exists, but they do so in another realm, which we cannot perceive in our present state. There's plenty of anecdotal evidence for this as well, but it's generally mocked by those who believe they know more than they actually do.
    • c- the final death, the spiritual death, which will occur at the final judgment, cuts off the human being from God, forever.

  • [2]Life, as described in the bible is also 3-fold.
    • - God created the man a living soul. This means that the man and God freely interacted with each other, and had no problems interacting.
    • The man was alive in every way possible. Spiritually, physically, emotionally, and had no "hang-ups" "skeletons in the closet" or psychological mess.
    • b- The physical life which the human race now experiences, is limited to a two-fold element. We're alive physically, and we're alive emotionally. Our spirit/soul (the part of the human being which interacts with God) is dead. So, when the human being dies, without God's making us spiritually alive, we still exist, but cut off from God, incapable of knowing him.
    • c- Because of this death, Jesus came, took on our sin, dying physically, and paid the price for our sin. His essence, his Deity, his God-nature still lived beyond what we human can perceive.
So, Jesus is in fact God incarnate, he did in fact die, and he is immortal, and did not die, as spiritual death is described in the bible.
 

SteveB

Well-known member
Well, throwing logic out the window is one solution I guess. Not one I'd recommend though.
Why are you so bothered with what you think is illogical?

You've never once demonstrated even the remotest quality of logic in your posts.
 

SteveB

Well-known member
Logic is important, and I respect it even if you don't.
Indeed Logic is very important.
The problem here isn't that biblical narrative is illogical.

It's that your sin and hostility towards the truth and God have corrupted your thinking and views of what logic actually is. Hosea 9:7.

Someone once described it that biblical logic is antithetical to worldly logic, in a manner not too dissimilar to when Jack Sparrow went to the underworld and chose our upside down, in At World's End, from 2007.

According to the bible, it's the human race which has absolutely changed our thinking, and it's actually God's Logic which is accurate and ours which is wrong.

Another way to describe it is the idea of not being possible to fly with the eagles, when you're hanging out with turkeys.

Isa 55:8-11 WEB 8 “For my thoughts are not your thoughts, and your ways are not my ways,” says Yahweh. 9 “For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts. 10 For as the rain comes down and the snow from the sky, and doesn’t return there, but waters the earth, and makes it grow and bud, and gives seed to the sower and bread to the eater; 11 so is my word that goes out of my mouth: it will not return to me void, but it will accomplish that which I please, and it will prosper in the thing I sent it to do.

Here's an article that describes it quite well.


To gain life, you must lose, or give up your life.
To gain wealth, you must give away your wealth.
To rule/lead, you must serve.

In dying to self, for the sake of Jesus, relive eternally.

In getting revenge, we love.
 

Algor

Active member
Indeed Logic is very important.
The problem here isn't that biblical narrative is illogical.

It's that your sin and hostility towards the truth and God have corrupted your thinking and views of what logic actually is. Hosea 9:7.

Someone once described it that biblical logic is antithetical to worldly logic, in a manner not too dissimilar to when Jack Sparrow went to the underworld and chose our upside down, in At World's End, from 2007.

According to the bible, it's the human race which has absolutely changed our thinking, and it's actually God's Logic which is accurate and ours which is wrong.

Another way to describe it is the idea of not being possible to fly with the eagles, when you're hanging out with turkeys.

Isa 55:8-11 WEB 8 “For my thoughts are not your thoughts, and your ways are not my ways,” says Yahweh. 9 “For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts. 10 For as the rain comes down and the snow from the sky, and doesn’t return there, but waters the earth, and makes it grow and bud, and gives seed to the sower and bread to the eater; 11 so is my word that goes out of my mouth: it will not return to me void, but it will accomplish that which I please, and it will prosper in the thing I sent it to do.

Here's an article that describes it quite well.


To gain life, you must lose, or give up your life.
To gain wealth, you must give away your wealth.
To rule/lead, you must serve.

In dying to self, for the sake of Jesus, relive eternally.

In getting revenge, we love.
Note that one can justify any atrocity using this line of reasoning.
 

Nouveau

Well-known member
Indeed Logic is very important.
The problem here isn't that biblical narrative is illogical.

It's that your sin and hostility towards the truth and God have corrupted your thinking and views of what logic actually is. Hosea 9:7.

Someone once described it that biblical logic is antithetical to worldly logic, in a manner not too dissimilar to when Jack Sparrow went to the underworld and chose our upside down, in At World's End, from 2007.

According to the bible, it's the human race which has absolutely changed our thinking, and it's actually God's Logic which is accurate and ours which is wrong.

Another way to describe it is the idea of not being possible to fly with the eagles, when you're hanging out with turkeys.

Isa 55:8-11 WEB 8 “For my thoughts are not your thoughts, and your ways are not my ways,” says Yahweh. 9 “For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts. 10 For as the rain comes down and the snow from the sky, and doesn’t return there, but waters the earth, and makes it grow and bud, and gives seed to the sower and bread to the eater; 11 so is my word that goes out of my mouth: it will not return to me void, but it will accomplish that which I please, and it will prosper in the thing I sent it to do.

Here's an article that describes it quite well.


To gain life, you must lose, or give up your life.
To gain wealth, you must give away your wealth.
To rule/lead, you must serve.

In dying to self, for the sake of Jesus, relive eternally.

In getting revenge, we love.
If your position entails contradictions then it is illogical. Calling it 'God's logic' doesn't make it any less so.
 

Algor

Active member
If your position entails contradictions then it is illogical. Calling it 'God's logic' doesn't make it any less so.
I'm always mystified that some people can't say something like "I don't know why God does that but I trust God." but instead say "God has a logic that contradicts our logic!".

It's the most self-refuting position I know of, but some people seem to think it is very wise and insightful.
 

SteveB

Well-known member
If your position entails contradictions then it is illogical. Calling it 'God's logic' doesn't make it any less so.
Your entire world view is the epitome of contradictions and you think it's the most accurate way possible.
So, what you think i find hilarious.
I believe that we've been here before and the only thing you could do is to justify your ignorance as the epitome of knowledge.

The Proverbs state that fools despise wisdom and understanding. So congratulations! You've done a bang up job!
 

Algor

Active member
I suppose you will indeed justify your own atrocities against yourself then.
If I do, it won't be by insisting that A=Not A
Hope you're happy with the consequences of your choice.
Thanks SteveB. Me too.

I hope you have the good sense to understand that A=not A is not a good justification for anything in the real world. I strongly suspect you have that insight already, and that my hope is well-founded.
 

SteveB

Well-known member
If I do, it won't be by insisting that A=Not A
You'll be claiming that A is truth, but after you've achieved your goals, you'll realize that you destroyed yourself and your only response will be is:

But my intentions were good!

All because you failed to understand that the road to hell is paved with good intentions.
 

Algor

Active member
You'll be claiming that A is truth, but after you've achieved your goals, you'll realize that you destroyed yourself and your only response will be is:

But my intentions were good!

All because you failed to understand that the road to hell is paved with good intentions.
Your predictions are noted.
 
Top