What is Wrong with God choosing who He saves?

[American Gothic]

I get the feeling that Arminian types think this is unfair,
but Salvation is not based on God being fair, it's based on Him being gracious. No?

 

[Rockson]

First your statement is a little bit slippery.

Of course there is nothing wrong with God choosing who he'll save but he's already told us who he will. Those who believe in Christ.

I say this because you leave an impression that non-Calvinists hold that God doesn't have the choice. He does but he's revealed just what it's based upon.

 

[zerinus]

What is Wrong with God choosing who He saves?

Nothing wrong with God choosing whom he saves. The question is what criteria does he use in deciding whom he saves.

II get the feeling that Arminian types think this is unfair,

Whether it is fair or not will depend on the answer to the previous question.

but Salvation is not based on God being fair, it's based on Him being gracious. No?

Salvation is based on the graciousness of God on the one hand, and faith and repentance of man on the other. It is not a one-sided affair.

 

[ReverendRV]

I get the feeling that Arminian types think this is unfair,
but Salvation is not based on God being fair, it's based on Him being gracious. No?

Welcome to CARM...

 

[ReverendRV]

I get the feeling that Arminian types think this is unfair,
but Salvation is not based on God being fair, it's based on Him being gracious. No?

As you can see from a couple of Posts, Non-Calvinists think it's fair that God chooses who will be Saved, because they believe the Bible says God chooses those who choose him. Ask if it's fair that God chooses people without taking into consideration that they met the conditions it takes to get Saved. That's basically what Unconditional Election says, right? You will hear them say the Bible doesn't teach that, but I recommend you continue to press them to answer if it would be fair. Atheists bring up how it's unfair that the God of Wrath ordered the death of babies. I'll watch your progress, I hope you're not a 'drive-by' Poster who hits and runs...

 

[PeanutGallery]

As you can see from a couple of Posts, Non-Calvinists think it's fair that God chooses who will be Saved, because they believe the Bible says God chooses those who choose him.

Scripturally, God is pleased to save those who believe. 1Cor 1:21

Ask if it's fair that God chooses people without taking into consideration that they met the conditions it takes to get Saved. That's basically what Unconditional Election says, right?...

TULIP's Unconditional Election is God choosing without condition, before the foundation of the world, before any had done either good or evil.
As a sovereign God, he could do so; however, scriturally God graciously and mercifully:
1Cor 1:21 For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe.

 

[American Gothic]

I affirm belief is condition of salvation and repentance (change of mind) is necessity, and that God may desire that all would come to repentance and be saved, but see that as different issue from them having ability to do so, due to their fallen nature, on their own.
Question of course is what is the source of a Believers understanding and belief (and then trust).
I see "fair" as us equally all being dead an in Hell already, if that is what God as Creator, Owner, Ruler, and Judge should think and/or determine we deserve and is just, and any deaths, even if commanded or caused by Him, and one's fate in Eternity as being in the hands of a just, good, and loving God.

(I was on CARM before the shutdown and redo, I'm not a "drive-buyer" per say, but do like to keep things a bit minimal on my part, and I unusually hang out in other areas of CARM. I don't mind letting the conversation run between others on topics/threads I start. Thanks for the Welcome.)

 

[guest1]

Scripturally, God is pleased to save those who believe. 1Cor 1:21


TULIP's Unconditional Election is God choosing without condition, before the foundation of the world, before any had done either good or evil.
As a sovereign God, he could do so; however, scriturally God graciously and mercifully:
1Cor 1:21 For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe.

Indeed just as Romans 9 teaches that GOD CHOSE Jacob over Esau before they were born.

You just proved UE.

Thanks !

 

[zerinus]

As you can see from a couple of Posts, Non-Calvinists think it's fair that God chooses who will be Saved, because they believe the Bible says God chooses those who choose him.

Strawman argument. God is “fair” because he says that he is. He is “no respecter of persons,” meaning that he does not discriminate, he does not have favourites, he treats everyone on an equal (fair) basis; but “in every nation he that feareth him, and worketh righteousness, is accepted with him” (Acts 10:34-35). That is God’s description of his own “fairness”.

Ask if it's fair that God chooses people without taking into consideration that they met the conditions it takes to get Saved.

And what were those?

That's basically what Unconditional Election says, right?

Wrong. Where does it say that?

You will hear them say the Bible doesn't teach that, but I recommend you continue to press them to answer if it would be fair.

If what would be fair?

Atheists bring up how it's unfair that the God of Wrath ordered the death of babies.

We are talking to believers, hopefully; so let’s convince them first, before worrying about the atheists.

 

[American Gothic]

He is “no respecter of persons,”

God promised an eventual national salvation to Israel (Romans 11) , but He did not promise that to the Norwegians.
If God does not treat Nations the same, is it correct to assume He treats all individuals exactly the same concerning their Salvation?

 

[PeanutGallery]

Indeed just as Romans 9 teaches that GOD CHOSE Jacob over Esau before they were born.

You just proved UE.

Thanks !

UE for what purpose? Service not salvation as mentioned in OP.
Rom 9:11 (For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth
Rom 9:12 It was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger.

 

[zerinus]

God promised a national salvation to Israel, ...

He didn’t:

Jude 1:

5 I will therefore put you in remembrance, though ye once knew this, how that the Lord, having saved the people out of the land of Egypt, afterward destroyed them that believed not.

... but He did not promise that to the Norwegians.

He did (and does). That is what Acts 10:34–35 is all about.

If God does not treat Nations the same, is it correct to assume He treats all individuals exactly the same concerning their Salvation?

He treats all nations (and individuals) the same. You are misunderstanding the scriptures.

 

[ReverendRV]

UE for what purpose? Service not salvation as mentioned in OP.
Rom 9:11 (For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth
Rom 9:12 It was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger.

So PG, was that example of Election to Service, Unconditional or not?

 

[ReverendRV]

I affirm belief is condition of salvation and repentance (change of mind) is necessity, and that God may desire that all would come to repentance and be saved, but see that as different issue from them having ability to do so, due to their fallen nature, on their own.
Question of course is what is the source of a Believers understanding and belief (and then trust).
I see "fair" as us equally all being dead an in Hell already, if that is what God as Creator, Owner, Ruler, and Judge should think and/or determine we deserve and is just, and any deaths, even if commanded or caused by Him, and one's fate in Eternity as being in the hands of a just, good, and loving God.

(I was on CARM before the shutdown and redo, I'm not a "drive-buyer" per say, but do like to keep things a bit minimal on my part, and I unusually hang out in other areas of CARM. I don't mind letting the conversation run between others on topics/threads I start. Thanks for the Welcome.)

On the defunct CARM Forums I was bruisermiller...

 

[shnarkle]

Of course there is nothing wrong with God choosing who he'll save but he's already told us who he will. Those who believe in Christ.

Not just believe, but believe and keep God's commandments. Only those who are saved can keep God's commandments.

I say this because you leave an impression that non-Calvinists hold that God doesn't have the choice. He does but he's revealed just what it's based upon.

Only a God who is ignorant can make a choice to begin with. Omniscience precludes any possibility of making any choices. Choices can only be made in ignorance.

 

[American Gothic]

He didn’t:

I'm sorry, I edited my post before your response, as I didn't mean to suggest an Israel universal salvation of all of them that have ever lived.

 

[ReverendRV]

Not just believe, but believe and keep God's commandments. Only those who are saved can keep God's commandments.

Only a God who is ignorant can make a choice to begin with. Omniscience precludes any possibility of making any choices. Choices can only be made in ignorance.

Would you agree that because of the Hypostatic Union of God and Man in Jesus Christ, God can make a Choice?

 

[American Gothic]

Not just believe, but believe and keep God's commandments. Only those who are saved can keep God's commandments.

Only a God who is ignorant can make a choice to begin with. Omniscience precludes any possibility of making any choices. Choices can only be made in ignorance.

My view is Believe, not believe and earn a reward of salvation thru obedience, other than the command to believe and trust the Gospel, and accept the Salvation that He Himself provided for us.
Within His omniscience, God can choose to limit Himself if He wants to - I don't think He has to know Everything all the time.

 

[zerinus]

So PG, was that example of Election to Service, Unconditional or not?

Conditional, based on God’s foreknowledge of how each would behave:

Malachi 1:

2 I have loved you, saith the Lord. Yet ye say, Wherein hast thou loved us? Was not Esau Jacob's brother? saith the Lord: yet I loved Jacob,
3 And I hated Esau, and laid his mountains and his heritage waste for the dragons of the wilderness.
4 Whereas Edom saith, We are impoverished, but we will return and build the desolate places; thus saith the Lord of hosts, They shall build, but I will throw down; and they shall call them, The border of wickedness, and, The people against whom the Lord hath indignation for ever.

They were rejected because they were sinful, wicked, and God in his foreknowledge knew it before they were born. But initially they were treated alike.

 

[shnarkle]

Would you agree that because of the Hypostatic Union of God and Man in Jesus Christ, God can make a Choice?

No. Christ clearly points out that he can only do what is given to him from the father. He only does what he sees the father doing. He may not like it or understand it, but he does so willingly.

Regardless, none of this addresses the fact that omniscience cannot make choices.