What is Wrong with God choosing who He saves?

[zerinus]

What is the source of Abraham's belief and trust (and then obedience)? Abraham? his own intellect?
Adam and Eve knew no sin, had the Holy Spirit within them, and yet were deceived and did not believe what God had said and disobeyed.

I am not sure what your point is. It is possible to believe in God, and yet not obey him; and it is also possible not to believe in God, or not know the true and living God, but still obey him, or do what is good and right out of a good conscience:

Romans 2:

6 Who will render to every man according to his deeds:
7 To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:
8 But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath,
9 Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile;
10 But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile:
11 For there is no respect of persons with God.
12 For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law;
13 (For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.
14 For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:
15 Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another; )
16 In the day when God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ according to my gospel.

What that is saying is that it is possible for the Jews, who have the Law, and thus know about God, to transgress the Law, and be condemned; while at the same time it is possible for the Gentiles, who do not have the Law, and don't know the true and living God, to do the works of the Law out of a good conscience, and thus be approved and accepted of God.

 

[PeanutGallery]

Are those mentioned in Hebrews 11 saved ? Yes or no

By faith, yes; by TULIP's UE, no.

 

[PeanutGallery]

But it proves the existence of Unconditional Election as a Biblical concept, right?

Biblical concept of election to service, yes; TULIP's election to salvation, no.

 

[ReverendRV]

Biblical concept of election to service, yes; TULIP's election to salvation, no.

Thanks...

So just how did Easu serve Jacob?

 

[Theo1689]

I am not sure what your point is. It is possible to believe in God, and yet not obey him; and it is also possible not to believe in God, or not know the true and living God, but still obey him, or do what is good and right out of a good conscience:

Romans 2:

6 Who will render to every man according to his deeds:
7 To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:
8 But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath,
9 Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile;
10 But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile:
11 For there is no respect of persons with God.
12 For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law;

This is not about allegedly presenting man's "abilities" on way or the other.
This is about testifying that God is always JUST in His dealings with man.

12 For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law;

You might have missed this, but this is describing two groups of men:

1) those who sinned WITHOUT the law;
2) those who sinned IN the law.

But both groups are people who SINNED. None of them were righteous (which is why it leads to Rom. 3:23 and Rom. 6:23).

13 (For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.
14 For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:

Some people ASSUME that this describes people "obeying" the law, but please note it doesn't say "obey" the law. It says they do things "contained" or "mentioned" in the law.

The point here is that they are doing things in the law, murdering, stealing, adultery, etc. etc. and they KNOW these things are wrong, because...

15 Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another; )

... they accuse others who do them, and they make excuses when they are caught doing them.

Again, C.S. Lewis has an excellent treatment of this in "Mere Christianity".

while at the same time it is possible for the Gentiles, who do not have the Law, and don't know the true and living God, to do the works of the Law out of a good conscience, and thus be approved and accepted of God.

Nope. Rom. 2 is saying nothing of the sort.
Otherwise God would be contradicting Himself by the time you get to Rom. 3.

 

[Bob Carabbio]

he's revealed just what it's based upon.

yup - nothing. Rom 9.

 

[shnarkle]

Those in Jesus were given to Him by the Father.

No. The church is given to Christ according to the will of the Father BY the power of his holy Spirit.

Jesus doesn't know when He will get to fetch His bride to be (it's when the Father says it's time), so within God's Tri-unity the different persons don't have to know everything or know equally.

if one is omniscient, then they can't know equally due to the fact that omniscience is exhaustive knowledge. Christ doesn't have exhaustive knowledge as you have just admitted.

A person is essentially a persona which is defined as "a mask; that which is presented to the world", and only Christ is presented to the world. There can be only ONE MEDIATOR between God and humanity, and that mediator is Christ. Christ is revealed through self denial/self sacrifice which is essentially no different than removing the mask which reveals the father. The father does not then also have a mask because that would be redundant, and God is not redundant.

 

[American Gothic]

It is possible to believe in God, and yet not obey him;

Yes

it is also possible not to believe in God ...(and do) good and right out of a good conscience

We don't always act as depraved as we are capable of, but we are, by nature, unable to follow God without divine assistance.

it is possible for the Gentiles, who do not have the Law, and don't know the true and living God, to do the works of the Law out of a good conscience, and thus be approved and accepted of God.

Not unto salvation - there is no Gentile salvation apart from the Jewish people as it is the spiritual blessings promised to them that are extended in promise to us, thru them and their Messiah.
Content of Faith can change thru time, but Faith always has context and specific content to it.
In this Age one must believe Jesus is the promised Messiah, that He died for our sins according the Scriptures, was buried, and was risen on the third day according the Scriptures, and that He is God as only God is Lord and Savior. (Isaiah 43:11)

No one is saved because they are a good person.

 

[Tercon]

I get the feeling that Arminian types think this is unfair,
but Salvation is not based on God being fair, it's based on Him being gracious. No?

Whoever God believes in and for first, they had their beginning in God and they shall be saved, because His will is according to what He believes and not what we believe. So, ONLY believers get to know the Will of God.

`And as Moses did lift up the serpent in the wilderness, so it behoveth the Son of Man to be lifted up, that every one who is believing in him may not perish, but may have life age-during, for God did so love the world, that His Son -- the only begotten -- He gave, that every one who is believing in him may not perish, but may have life age-during. (John 3:14-16)

`And what he hath seen and heard this he doth testify, and his testimony none receiveth; he who is receiving his testimony did seal that God is true; for he whom God sent, the sayings of God he speaketh; for not by measure doth God give the Spirit; the Father doth love the Son, and all things hath given into his hand; he who is believing in the Son, hath life age-during; and he who is not believing the Son, shall not see life, but the wrath of God doth remain upon him.' (John 3:32-36)

 

[American Gothic]

So just how did Easu serve Jacob?

Jacob became the acting Melchizedek (King, Priest, Prophet) after Abraham and then Isaac.
It should have been Esau, but he refused to learn to read and write and study the writings of his forefathers and the prophecies.
He was unworthy of the role, and Abraham himself intervened and told Rebecca that he was the next in that line, influencing the actions she took.
Esau didn't like that of course, but the position and the authority with it went to his tent dwelling mamma's boy younger brother,
as God said it would.

 

[ReverendRV]

Jacob became the acting Melchizedek (King, Priest, Prophet) after Abraham and then Isaac.
It should have been Esau, but he refused to learn to read and write and study the writings of his forefathers and the prophecies.
He was unworthy of the role, and Abraham himself intervened and told Rebecca that he was the next in that line, influencing the actions she took.
Esau didn't like that of course, but the position and the authority with it went to his tent dwelling mamma's boy younger brother,
as God said it would.

Are you saying that is a description of how Esau served Jacob?

It's meant to be a trap question for Peanut Gallery; Esau didn't serve Jacob. So Romans 9 is about Election to Salvation, and he said Election in Romans 9 is Unconditional...

 

[guest1]

By faith, yes; by TULIP's UE, no.

Yet before they were born Jacob was elected as the one whom would receive Gods grace in salvation . So once again Romans 9 along with Hebrews 11 supports UE.

next…

 

[zerinus]

Yes

We don't always act as depraved as we are capable of, but we are, by nature, unable to follow God without divine assistance.

Not unto salvation - there is no Gentile salvation apart from the Jewish people as it is the spiritual blessings promised to them that are extended in promise to us, thru them and their Messiah.
Content of Faith can change thru time, but Faith always has context and specific content to it.
In this Age one must believe Jesus is the promised Messiah, that He died for our sins according the Scriptures, was buried, and was risen on the third day according the Scriptures, and that He is God as only God is Lord and Savior. (Isaiah 43:11)

No one is saved because they are a good person.

You are simply stating your own theology without regard to what the scripture (Romans 2:6-16) is saying. You may find that satisfactory, but not me.

 

[PeanutGallery]

Yet before they were born Jacob was elected as the one whom would receive Gods grace in salvation . …

Jacob would receive the grace:
Rom 9:4 Who are Israelites; to whom pertaineth the adoption, and the glory, and the covenants, and the giving of the law, and the service of God, and the promises;

 

[guest1]

Jacob would receive the grace:
Rom 9:4 Who are Israelites; to whom pertaineth the adoption, and the glory, and the covenants, and the giving of the law, and the service of God, and the promises;

And that was predetermined by God prior to his birth.

next……

 

[American Gothic]

the Jews, who have the Law, and thus know God

The majority of them did not know God, nor did they recognize Him when He walked among them, exactly as and when He said He would according to what Moses and the Prophets taught. (Luke 19:44)
Nor do most of them know Him currently.

There is nothing in the Mosaic Law that said or promised by doing Law stuff or good deeds they would know God.

Who will render to every man according to his deeds:

Do you think God is still holding our sinful deeds against us? (Romans 8:1)

 

[American Gothic]

The church is given to Christ according to the will of the Father BY the power of his holy Spirit.

I wasn't discounting work of the Holy Spirit, but His involvement is not always mentioned specifically.
(John 6:37, 10:19)

 

[shnarkle]

I wasn't discounting work of the Holy Spirit, but His involvement is not always mentioned specifically.
(John 6:37, 10:19)

I wasn't implying that you were discounting the work of the Holy Spirit. I was pointing out that your claim that those given to Christ are not given "BY" the Father, but according to the will of the Father. No one comes to Christ unless the father draw them, but that drawing is according to the will of the Father "BY" the power of the Holy Spirit. The Father is not the means. The Father is the origin. See also 1 Corinthians 8:6

 

[PeanutGallery]

And that was predetermined by God prior to his birth.

next……

Again, the service was predetermined; not TULIP's UE to salvation as in keeping with OP.

 

[zerinus]

The majority of them did not know God, nor did they recognize Him when He walked among them, exactly as and when He said He would according to what Moses and the Prophets taught. (Luke 19:44)
Nor do most of them know Him currently.

There is nothing in the Mosaic Law that said or promised by doing Law stuff or good deeds they would know God.

They knew enough about God for Jesus to be able to say to them:

John 8:

54 Jesus answered, If I honour myself, my honour is nothing: it is my Father that honoureth me; of whom ye say, that he is your God:

Who will render to every man according to his deeds:

Do you think God is still holding our sinful deeds against us? (Romans 8:1)

You are quoting that line way out of context. If you pull scripture out of context enough, you can make it say almost anything.