What is Wrong with God choosing who He saves?

zerinus

Well-known member
Um, they did good works BECAUSE they were saved (Eph. 2:10, Phil. 2:13)
They didn’t get saved BY doing good works.

Why do you keep running away from passages like Eph. 2:8,9 Tit. 3:5, 2Tim. 1:9, Rom. 4:1-6, Rom. 11:5-6, etc. etc.?
Contradicting the words of Jesus. No need to add more.
 

Theo1689

Well-known member
Theo1689 said:
Why do you keep running away from passages like Eph. 2:8,9 Tit. 3:5, 2Tim. 1:9, Rom. 4:1-6, Rom. 11:5-6, etc. etc.?
Contradicting the words of Jesus. No need to add more.

You haven't demonstrated any "contradiction".
So this is nothing but an unsubstantiated claim.

And you didn't answer why you keep running away from passages like Eph. 2:8,9 Tit. 3:5, 2Tim. 1:9, Rom. 4:1-6, Rom. 11:5-6, etc. etc.?
 

Marcha

Member
What about Saul/Paul? Was that unconditional election? What does this mean?
Acts 9:5 KJV — And he said, Who art thou, Lord? And the Lord said, I am Jesus whom thou persecutest: it is hard for thee to kick against the pricks.
 

Theo1689

Well-known member
What about Saul/Paul?

Um, hello! Welcome to CARM!

What about Saul/Paul? Was that unconditional election? What does this mean?

1) Who are you responding to?
2) What is your point?
3) What view do you hold?

What does this mean? Acts 9:5 KJV — And he said, Who art thou, Lord? And the Lord said, I am Jesus whom thou persecutest: it is hard for thee to kick against the pricks.

Um, I suppose it means what it says.
Why did you choose to cite this particular verse?
What do you think it has to do with unconditional election?
What do YOU think the verse means?

If you want to talk about Paul and unconditional election, it seems that you should have quoted more context:

Acts 9:4 And he fell to the earth, and heard a voice saying unto him, Saul, Saul, why persecutest thou me? 5 And he said, Who art thou, Lord? And the Lord said, I am Jesus whom thou persecutest: it is hard for thee to kick against the pricks. 6 And he trembling and astonished said, Lord, what wilt thou have me to do? And the Lord said unto him, Arise, and go into the city, and it shall be told thee what thou must do. 7 And the men which journeyed with him stood speechless, hearing a voice, but seeing no man. 8 And Saul arose from the earth; and when his eyes were opened, he saw no man: but they led him by the hand, and brought him into Damascus.

I don't see where anyone asked "approval" to do this to Saul, or "invited" this to happen to him.
 

ReverendRV

Well-known member
What about Saul/Paul? Was that unconditional election? What does this mean?
Acts 9:5 KJV — And he said, Who art thou, Lord? And the Lord said, I am Jesus whom thou persecutest: it is hard for thee to kick against the pricks.
Welcome to CARM!

I have a Gospel Tract titled "Who are you Lord?". It asks what if you were on the way to serve God and he asked you what in the world are you doing?? The point was it had to be Paul's greatest shame he didn't know the God he professed all his life; oh the Irony! I think this sides more with Unconditional Election than anything else...
 

zerinus

Well-known member
He judges the Nations (Gentiles) taking into account how they treated HIs chosen Nation (Israel).
You are missing the point. You had argued that they "righteous" are those who had been automatically and predeterminedly given eternal life, thus effectively bypassing the judgement day described in Matthew 25:31-46. This is what you had said:
The Righteous on the right would already be given the gift of eternal Life.
That doesn't square with the text of the scripture, specifically verses 34-40, which allows for no such assumption, but necessitates righteous deeds as the criterion used for judgement to salvation, in contrast to the unrighteous deeds of the others who were condemned for damnation.
 

American Gothic

Active member
You are missing the point. You had argued that they "righteous" are those who had been automatically and predeterminedly given eternal life, thus effectively bypassing the judgement day
Anyone in Jesus has passed from death to Life, already - only the unbelieving are still under condemnation, facing judgement.

As said above, those who treated Israel well would be Believers, and already saved.
 
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zerinus

Well-known member
Anyone in Jesus has passed from death to Life, already - only the unbelieving are still under condemnation, facing judgement.

As said above, those who treated Israel well would be Believers, and already saved.
You are just ignoring the scripture, simple as that. The scripture says nothing about "how they treated Israel". It has nothing to do with that. You are inventing that yourself. The scripture is about judgement-day, and the criteria used by God to determine who will go to heaven and who will go to hell.
 

American Gothic

Active member
The scripture says nothing about "how they treated Israel". It has nothing to do with that. You are inventing that yourself.

"I will make you a great Nation;...

I will bless those who bless you,
And I will curse (those) who curse- you;
And in you all the families of the earth shall be blessed." (Gen 12)

God doesn't treat all Nations the same.
 
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zerinus

Well-known member
"I will make you a great Nation;...

I will bless those who bless you,
And I will curse (those) who curse- you;
And in you all the families of the earth shall be blessed." (Gen 12)
And what has that got to do with Matthew 25?
God doesn't treat all Nations the same.
God treats all nations the same:

Acts 10:

34 Then Peter opened his mouth, and said, Of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons:
35 But in every nation he that feareth him, and worketh righteousness, is accepted with him.
 

American Gothic

Active member
God treats all nations the same:
clearly He does not -
"And the Lord will make you the head and not the tail; you shall be above only, and not be beneath" (Deut. 28)

That's a promise to Israel concerning their obedience and faithfulness to their God.
In the Kingdom age all of Israel will be faithful - Israel will at that time be the head of Nations, no longer the tail.

what has that got to do with Matthew 25?
God is judging the Nations.
 
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zerinus

Well-known member
clearly He does not -
"And the Lord will make you the head and not the tail; you shall be above only, and not be beneath" (Deut. 28)

That's a promise to Israel concerning their obedience and faithfulness to their God.
In the Kingdom age all of Israel will be faithful - Israel will at that time be the head of Nations, no longer the tail.
God treats all nations alike. He destroys the nations of the wicked, and preserves the nations of the righteous:

Deuteronomy 9:

4 Speak not thou in thine heart, after that the Lord thy God hath cast them out from before thee, saying, For my righteousness the Lord hath brought me in to possess this land: but for the wickedness of these nations the Lord doth drive them out from before thee.
5 Not for thy righteousness, or for the uprightness of thine heart, dost thou go to possess their land: but for the wickedness of these nations the Lord thy God doth drive them out from before thee, and that he may perform the word which the Lord sware unto thy fathers, Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob.
 

American Gothic

Active member
He destroys...nations and preserves...nations
Totally agree, but Israel has promise that they will always exist
My Japhetic peoples and all others have no such promise - only Israel does.
God is gracious how He wants on whom He chooses.

"I will plant Israel in their own land, never again to be uprooted from the land I have given them," says the LORD your God.
Amos 9
 
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zerinus

Well-known member
Totally agree, but Israel has promise that they will always exist
My Japhetic peoples and all others have no such promise - only Israel does.
God is gracious how He wants on whom He chooses.

"I will plant Israel in their own land, never again to be uprooted from the land I have given them," says the LORD your God.
Amos 9
God made special promises to Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob concerning their descendants because of their righteousness. But those promises are not unconditional to their descendants. Each Israelite is responsible for their own individual actions, and are liable to be saved or destroyed based on their own individual righteousness or wickedness.
 
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