What is Wrong with God choosing who He saves?

American Gothic

Well-known member
liable to be saved or destroyed based on their own individual righteousness or wickedness.
The Mosaic covenant and Law promised blessings for obedience and curses for disobedience (conditional), but one's individual Salvation is always based on grace, thru faith - any then lawful observance of what God commands is what Believers bother to do.
As Believers, they would already be saved.

The Saved are saved in spite of their not deserving it.
Israel's national salvation is also not their doing, it's completely God's doing based on what He promised and His faithfulness.
The Abrahamic covenant is unconditional.
 
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zerinus

Well-known member
The Mosaic covenant and Law promised blessings for obedience and curses for disobedience (conditional), but one's individual Salvation is always based on grace, thru faith - any then lawful observance of what God commands is what Believers bother to do.
As Believers, they would already be saved.

The Saved are saved in spite of their not deserving it.
Israel's national salvation is also not their doing, it's completely God's doing based on what He promised and His faithfulness.
The Abrahamic covenant is unconditional.
Respectfully I have to disagree. It seems to me that you have already determined what your theology will be, and no amount of scriptural reasoning, no matter how plausible, is going to change that. So we will have to leave it at that, and agree to disagree.
 

GeneZ

Well-known member
I get the feeling that Arminian types think this is unfair,
but Salvation is not based on God being fair, it's based on Him being gracious. No?
God determines who He will save by how Hid drawing a person goes....

When it says that we have been chosen "in" Christ before the foundation of the world? That speaks of those whom God chose out from all He knew would believe to the privilege of being the Bride of Christ. For God chose Eve in Adam, his bride. We are now hid in Christ awaiting for our resurrection bodies just like his own... Hence? The "Bride of Christ."

We have not been chosen to believe as Calvinists assume. We have been chosen out from all God knows will believe to be found "in" Christ when we believe.

Moses was not chosen by God to be the Bride of Christ. No OT saint was chosen by God for such an honor..
 

American Gothic

Well-known member
Why would God get involved and lead someone to the point of making a decision, only to then allow them to make the wrong decision, and be lost? How is that for their benefit? How is that ultimately for His glory?

"Irresistible (I'd say efficacious) grace refers to the certainty of salvation for those whom God has called. In other words, the Holy Spirit invariably overcomes man's natural resistance to God's call for everyone who receives the call." - Ariel Ministries, Q&A on "Calvinism"
 
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Carbon

Super Member
God determines who He will save by how Hid drawing a person goes....

When it says that we have been chosen "in" Christ before the foundation of the world? That speaks of those whom God chose out from all He knew would believe to the privilege of being the Bride of Christ. For God chose Eve in Adam, his bride. We are now hid in Christ awaiting for our resurrection bodies just like his own... Hence? The "Bride of Christ."

We have not been chosen to believe as Calvinists assume. We have been chosen out from all God knows will believe to be found "in" Christ when we believe.

Moses was not chosen by God to be the Bride of Christ. No OT saint was chosen by God for such an honor..
Utterly ridiculous!
 

GeneZ

Well-known member
The Holy Spirit can also reveal to us the truth of the Scriptures and the Gospel, which was not within our ability to understand or accept
on our own.
Grace by the filling of the Holy Spirit makes us able to understand what we have no idea we should not be able to understand (if walking in our natural flesh.) It becomes natural to understand spiritual truths .

Its like being a bird knowing to fly to a warmer climate in the winter.
Grace = new spiritual instincts.

grace and peace ...........
 

GeneZ

Well-known member
No? Thanks, I didn't know that.

Curious, what is your intention here? Do you have one? What do you wish to accomplish? To only offer nothingness as obstruction?

To make empty statements in a desire to distract others away from truth being expressed?

For, that is what someone making empty statements do. Usually, as a last resort....

You need to study more and learn better than you have been learning. To be able to give answers. Even wrong answers if need be. But, empty remarks?

As a man thinks in his heart, so is he.

The real Stonewall Jackson knew his Bible. He'd be showing Scripture to make his points here.
 

American Gothic

Well-known member
Grace by the filling of the Holy Spirit makes us able to understand what we have no idea we should not be able to understand (if walking in our natural flesh.) It becomes natural to understand spiritual truths .
I don't think it's Grace that has any of the power here, but the Holy Spirit does.
Same as I don't believe in the power of Prayer, as some do - I believe in the power of God.

God determines who He will save
I think so.
The Arminian "drawing to make a choice" thing (perhaps the wrong choice) seems to go against God's character and ability to save to the uttermost.

what is your intention here? Do you have one?
Carbon is cool with me - I like how he keeps things Minimal.
 

Theo1689

Well-known member
I think so.
The Arminian "drawing to make a choice" thing (perhaps the wrong choice) seems to go against God's character and ability to save to the uttermost.

Not to mention going against the meaning of "draw"....
"Drawing" is inherently efficacious. If something doesn't come, then you can't say it was "drawn".
If a band plays while a crowd walks past it and ignores it, you can't say they "drew a crowd".
If you pull on your sword and it doesn't come out of its sheath, you can't say you "drew" it.
If you need air but your diaphragm isn't working, you can't say you "drew a breath".

And so on.

I don't know if you've seen this list I've compiled over the years....

Here is a list of expressions which use the term, "draw":

"draw a gun"
"with-drawl"
"draw a sword"
"draw blood"
"draw blinds"
"draw interest"
"draw curtains"
"draw a breath"
"draw a cheque"
"the honey drew flies";
“the light drew moths”;
"the enemy drew fire";
"horse-drawn carriage";
"draw the short straw"
"draw on a bank account";
"draw water from a well"
"amount of power drawn";
"draw a card from a deck”
"draw a bow" (archery);
"the college drew students";
"the performance drew cheers";
"draw-er" (you drag/pull it open);
"draw" (winning ticket) for a 50/50 draw;
"the prisoner was drawn and quartered";
“draw on a cigarette" ("take a draw");

Deut. 21:3 a heifer that...has not pulled <ἑλκύω> in a yoke.
2Sam. 22:17 he drew <ἑλκύω> me out of many waters.
1 Mac 10:82 Then brought <ἑλκύω> Simon forth his host,
3 Mac 5:49 infants drew <ἑλκύω> what seemed their last milk [from the breast].
4 Mac 11:9 the spearbearers bound him, and drew <ἑλκύω> him to the catapelt:
Ps. 10:9 he seizes the poor when he draws <ἑλκύω> him into his net.
Ps. 119:131 I open my mouth and pant <ἑλκύω pneuma>, lit. "draw air"
Eccl. 2:3 how to cheer my body with wine (lit., "draw <ἑλκύω> wine into my body"
Job 20:28 The possessions of his house will be carried away, <ἑλκύω>
Job 39:10 or will he harrow <ἑλκύω> the valleys after you? (lit. "drag your furrows")
Sir. 28:19 who hath not drawn <ἑλκύω> the yoke thereof,
Hab. 1:15 he drags <ἑλκύω> them out with his net;
Isa. 10:15 [shall] the saw magnify itself against him who wields <ἑλκύω> it?
Jer. 14:6 they pant <ἑλκύω> for air (lit. "draw air") like jackals;
Jer. 38:13 Then they drew <ἑλκύω> Jeremiah up with ropes
John 18:10 Then Simon Peter, having a sword, drew <ἑλκύω> it
John 21:6 So they cast [the net], and now they were not able to haul <ἑλκύω>it in
John 21:11 So Simon Peter went aboard and hauled <ἑλκύω> the net ashore
Acts 16:19 they seized Paul and Silas and dragged <ἑλκύω> them into the marketplace
Acts 21:30 They seized Paul and dragged <ἑλκύω> him out of the temple
James 2:6 the ones who drag <ἑλκύω> you into court?



No Greek lexicon EVER defines "helkuo" as "woo", or "coax".
It always means, "draw" or "drag".
 

GeneZ

Well-known member
I don't think it's Grace that has any of the power here, but the Holy Spirit does.
Same as I don't believe in the power of Prayer, as some do - I believe in the power of God.


I think so.
The Arminian "drawing to make a choice" thing (perhaps the wrong choice) seems to go against God's character and ability to save to the uttermost.


Carbon is cool with me - I like how he keeps things Minimal.
I thoroughly enjoyed how you lumped my quote in with the others to make it look like those were all my thoughts....

Alright... The Lord said it will be this way. And, it is.

So? No complaints from me, other than some disappointment in having to witness to believers throwing away their grace potentials in Christ.

The Lord did not slap down Eve's hand as she took the fruit. Did He? And, He is not going to start today.

Having only half-baked, academic knowledge of God's Word (gnosis) needs to find ways to quarrel and fight with others, lest they sink into freezing boredom by having no more diversion away that quarreling offers for a moment, having to then become conscious of their own inner emptiness and spiritual bankruptcy. Resenting those who remain persevering and finding the inner Life that Christ came to give us all.
The thief comes only to steal and kill and destroy; I have come that they may have life, and have it to the full." John 10:10


Jealousy from failure in believers motivates one side. Always memorizing and twisting Scripture like Satan did in the Temptation of Christ...

Yet? Happiness and the Life secured through finding the living in knowledge of sound doctrine (epignosis) rises above the dark side's motivation. This Life rises above and is saved from it.

Happiness and Life in Sound doctrine made spiritually alive when found is our Ark of this dispensation. Built by grace through sound knowledge of God's Word... God will raise up and deliver.





🌂🌂🌂🌂🌂 Stay tuned! ..... next week.... "When the Flood Comes." (drowning in their own dogmatic, embittered, confusion)

...............
 
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