What Jesus actually accomplished on the cross enduring the Fathers wrath.

Kampioen

Well-known member
Do you believe all babies are innocent?!

This is about a particular person, not all infants. Don’t you agree?

Sure. But this is the same particular person ie David that also said ...

Psalms 51:5 (KJV) Behold, I was shapen in iniquity; and in sin did my mother conceive me.

So these verses are symbolic of something else than an actual baby. I would say they are the sin or blessings of an adult at any one time.

Psalms 22:9 (KJV) But thou art he that took me out of the womb: thou didst make me hope when I was upon my mother's breasts.

I would say all babies are innocent before God until they understand natural revelation or more. Then they all become guilty.
 

Carbon

Well-known member
There is a spirit of the age claiming Jesus did not endure the Fathers wrath while on the cross and that he was also not forsaken.
Which teaches his sacrifice was not a propitiation nor did it expiate sin. Simply, if our (the elect) Sin wasn’t imputed unto him, he died for nothing. He had no inherent sin of his own.

I believe this is a time for Christian’s to stand up for essential doctrines of the faith. And PSA, Christ enduring God’s wrath, in our place is one of them.
If we have no sacrificial lamb God’s wrath is not appeased. If we have no scapegoat, our sins remain on us. And Christ’s sacrifice was meaningless.

These are two major aspects of Christ's death on the cross. Propitiation and expiation.
The OT has many types and shadows of a propitiary sacrifice which means to remove or appease, satisfy God’s anger. And expiate, which means to remove the sin.

IMO, there is a spirit of the age at work which is sweeping many weary into error. Seem to me judgement is on the church.

There is a constant catechismal teaching from the world and it is very effective. Scripture teaches we can’t trust our own hearts. It’s wicked, we can’t even understand it.

Jer 17:9,
The heart is deceitful above all things,
and desperately sick;
who can understand it?

But God knows our hearts, and if we continue to turn to the world and our own wisdom, he will allow it for a time.
Jer 17:10,
“I the LORD search the heart
and test the mind,
to give every man according to his ways,
according to the fruit of his deeds.”

Brothers and sisters in Christ… we need to constantly remind each other of these Christian truths. As we need to be in the word, seeking truth and trusting God alone.
Psalm 139:23-24,
Search me, O God, and know my heart!
Try me and know my thoughts!
And see if there be any grievous way in me,
and lead me in the way everlasting!
Psalm 22 according to James Boice, is the greatest picture in the word of God of death by crucifixion.
I agree with him.
He also says there is nothing we can relate this psalm to but the cruxifixction of Christ.

If you take the time to hear his teaching on this psalm, it will be very rewarding.

James Montgomery Boice “the psalm of the cross part 1. Psalm 22:1-31.

 
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shnarkle

Well-known member
Okay.

Interesting. I may not agree but it’s refreshing seeing someone thinking and reasoning things. 🙂

We disagree here. Expiation is removing our sin and placing it on Christ. Imputation.
It's interesting that the reason you disagree isn't because of what the text reveals, but because of a doctrine that you site as more authoritative. However, there seems to be a strong parallel between this scene and Barabbas being released as well. Jesus is clearly seen as the goat that will be sacrificed while Barabbas is the scapegoat. Jesus is the Son of God while Barabbas is the son of a different father(for those who may not know it, Barabbas means "son of the father"). I suppose Barabbas could be used to symbolize the lost who are freed because of Christ's sacrifice, but I still don't find that as compelling as a figure for Satan.
 

Carbon

Well-known member
It's interesting that the reason you disagree isn't because of what the text reveals, but because of a doctrine that you site as more authoritative. However, there seems to be a strong parallel between this scene and Barabbas being released as well. Jesus is clearly seen as the goat that will be sacrificed while Barabbas is the scapegoat. Jesus is the Son of God while Barabbas is the son of a different father(for those who may not know it, Barabbas means "son of the father"). I suppose Barabbas could be used to symbolize the lost who are freed because of Christ's sacrifice, but I still don't find that as compelling as a figure for Satan.
Your an interesting person, I’ll give you that. Your a thinker and knowledgeable. I appreciate that.

I think Jesus was crucified in Barabbas’s place. Just like in our place.
 

shnarkle

Well-known member
Your an interesting person, I’ll give you that. Your a thinker and knowledgeable. I appreciate that.

I think Jesus was crucified in Barabbas’s place. Just like in our place.
It works, but the parallels with the scapegoat are hard for me to ignore.
 

HealTheLand

Active member
It's interesting that the reason you disagree isn't because of what the text reveals, but because of a doctrine that you site as more authoritative. ....


it's ok to read the Bible (and other believers ideas /thoughts) and just let God speak to us. He knows more / and better than we do. 🪟
 

HealTheLand

Active member
The point here is that he that is greater than he in the world is in the flesh which is you. You are the temple of God in which his spirit dwells.


the Alpha and the Omega. made in the Image of God. we are not staying (at a Beginning), but, but moving on


"but grow in the grace and knowledge of ............ Jesus Christ". Christ: "I am the way, the truth, and the life"


not only a beginning ... when we believe - in - Christ,,,, but how much more are we saved -- by His -- Life (arise)


every morning His mercies are new and death (Night) disappears, as we get up and start Living. we don't stay


@Carbon
 
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shnarkle

Well-known member
the Alpha and the Omega. made in the Image of God. we are not staying (at a Beginning), but, but moving on


"but grow in the grace and knowledge of ............ Jesus Christ". Christ: "I am the way, the truth, and the life"


not only a beginning ... when we believe - in - Christ,,,, but how much more are we saved -- by His -- Life (arise)


every morning His mercies are new and death (Night) disappears, as we get up and start Living. we don't stay


@Carbon
Why do you keep referring to the beginning as if we're all stuck and can't move on?
 

christ_undivided

Well-known member
Sure. But this is the same particular person ie David that also said ...

Psalms 51:5 (KJV) Behold, I was shapen in iniquity; and in sin did my mother conceive me.

So these verses are symbolic of something else than an actual baby. I would say they are the sin or blessings of an adult at any one time.

Psalms 22:9 (KJV) But thou art he that took me out of the womb: thou didst make me hope when I was upon my mother's breasts.

I would say all babies are innocent before God until they understand natural revelation or more. Then they all become guilty.

David was the descendant of a faithful family.

2Ti 1:5 When I call to remembrance the unfeigned faith that is in thee, which dwelt first in thy grandmother Lois, and thy mother Eunice; and I am persuaded that in thee also.

1Co 7:14 For the unbelieving husband is sanctified by the wife, and the unbelieving wife is sanctified by the husband: else were your children unclean; but now are they holy.

There is no reason to believe that the descendants of the children of Satan have any such privileges'.

1Jn 3:10 In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother.

Joh 8:43 Why do ye not understand my speech? even because ye cannot hear my word.
Joh 8:44 Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.

I have children. They cried when they wanted to manipulate most any situation. I didn't have to train them to be this way. A child left to themselves will bring their mother to shame. A child naturally seeks evil.

Training is required.
 

HealTheLand

Active member
Why do you keep referring to the beginning as if we're all stuck and can't move on?

it was for Carbon,,, because he asked. I was not disagreeing with you at all... just some thoughts about it.

though maybe... thinking about it more, maybe the video really explains it better than -- I ? :) sometimes things can be difficult to put into words and / or putting them into words.... what something might mean -- can i guess detract from the meanings that can be perceived / received by just a verse , a song, a video ....

the bigger picture.... what Spirit can reveal through many means and different people in life (you, me, Carbon, ect.).
 
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Stephen

Active member
There is a spirit of the age claiming Jesus did not endure the Fathers wrath while on the cross and that he was also not forsaken.
Which teaches his sacrifice was not a propitiation nor did it expiate sin. Simply, if our (the elect) Sin wasn’t imputed unto him, he died for nothing. He had no inherent sin of his own.

I believe this is a time for Christian’s to stand up for essential doctrines of the faith. And PSA, Christ enduring God’s wrath, in our place is one of them.
If we have no sacrificial lamb God’s wrath is not appeased. If we have no scapegoat, our sins remain on us. And Christ’s sacrifice was meaningless.

These are two major aspects of Christ's death on the cross. Propitiation and expiation.
The OT has many types and shadows of a propitiary sacrifice which means to remove or appease, satisfy God’s anger. And expiate, which means to remove the sin.

IMO, there is a spirit of the age at work which is sweeping many weary into error. Seem to me judgement is on the church.

There is a constant catechismal teaching from the world and it is very effective. Scripture teaches we can’t trust our own hearts. It’s wicked, we can’t even understand it.

Is this just a general rant, or are you willing to discuss some of these points?

For example, in the OT type (i.e. the scapegoat in Lev 16), the scapegoat that carried away the sins of Israel was not harmed but rather put in somebody's care and led away. The goat that was killed as a sin offering for the people did not have the sins of Israel placed upon it. Neither of the goats were tortured or endured any wrath. In the type it appears that sin expiation is something that Christ does while alive and unharmed.

What wrath of God do you imagine here? Roman soldiers whipped him, mocked him, and nailed him to a tree at the direction of the Jewish priesthood. So I'm at a loss as to where God's wrath is in the picture. Did God give Jesus some extra torment after the resurrection?

Presuming "PSA" means Penal Substitutionary Atonement, the I have to ask, in what way do you claim that Christ your substitute? Did he spend 3 days in the grave so you don't have to? Is he spending eternity in the grave so you don't have to? Does he have eternal life so you don't have to? Please be specific, perhaps with a sentence using the word "substitute". For example: "I was destined to spend eternity in the grave, but Christ is spending eternity in the grave as my substitute: or "I was a slave to sin, but Christ became a slave to sin as my substitute".
 
G

guest1

Guest
Is this just a general rant, or are you willing to discuss some of these points?

For example, in the OT type (i.e. the scapegoat in Lev 16), the scapegoat that carried away the sins of Israel was not harmed but rather put in somebody's care and led away. The goat that was killed as a sin offering for the people did not have the sins of Israel placed upon it. Neither of the goats were tortured or endured any wrath. In the type it appears that sin expiation is something that Christ does while alive and unharmed.

What wrath of God do you imagine here? Roman soldiers whipped him, mocked him, and nailed him to a tree at the direction of the Jewish priesthood. So I'm at a loss as to where God's wrath is in the picture. Did God give Jesus some extra torment after the resurrection?

Presuming "PSA" means Penal Substitutionary Atonement, the I have to ask, in what way do you claim that Christ your substitute? Did he spend 3 days in the grave so you don't have to? Is he spending eternity in the grave so you don't have to? Does he have eternal life so you don't have to? Please be specific, perhaps with a sentence using the word "substitute". For example: "I was destined to spend eternity in the grave, but Christ is spending eternity in the grave as my substitute: or "I was a slave to sin, but Christ became a slave to sin as my substitute".
Excellent points .
 
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