What Jesus didn’t know

puddleglum

Active member
When God appeared to Moses in the burning bush he revealed his name to him.

Then Moses said to God, “If I come to the people of Israel and say to them, ‘The God of your fathers has sent me to you,’ and they ask me, ‘What is his name?’ what shall I say to them?”

God said to Moses, “I AM WHO I AM.” And he said, “Say this to the people of Israel, ‘I AM has sent me to you.’” God also said to Moses, “Say this to the people of Israel, ‘The LORD, the God of your fathers, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob, has sent me to you.’ This is my name forever, and thus I am to be remembered throughout all generations.”
Exodus 3:13-15

God revealed to Moses that his name was I Am. Jesus applied that name to himself.

“Your father Abraham rejoiced that he would see my day. He saw it and was glad.” So the Jews said to him, “You are not yet fifty years old, and have you seen Abraham?”

Jesus said to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I Am.”

So they picked up stones to throw at him, but Jesus hid himself and went out of the temple.
John 8:56-59

Jesus forgave sins.

And they came, bringing to him a paralytic carried by four men. And when they could not get near him because of the crowd, they removed the roof above him, and when they had made an opening, they let down the bed on which the paralytic lay.

And when Jesus saw their faith, he said to the paralytic, “Son, your sins are forgiven.”

Now some of the scribes were sitting there, questioning in their hearts, “Why does this man speak like that? He is blaspheming! Who can forgive sins but God alone?”
Mark 2:3-7

He accepted worship.

Jesus heard that they had cast him out, and having found him he said, “Do you believe in the Son of Man?”

He answered, “And who is he, sir, that I may believe in him?”

Jesus said to him, “You have seen him, and it is he who is speaking to you.”

He said, “Lord, I believe,” and he worshiped him.
John 9:35-38

By applying to himself a name that belonged to God, claiming to forgive sins, and accepting worship Jesus asserted his deity. But he also made a statement that seems to contradict this claim.

From the fig tree learn its lesson: as soon as its branch becomes tender and puts out its leaves, you know that summer is near. So also, when you see all these things, you know that he is near, at the very gates.

Truly, I say to you, this generation will not pass away until all these things take place. Heaven and earth will pass away, but my words will not pass away.

But concerning that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels of heaven, nor the Son, but the Father only.
Matthew 24:32-36

God is omniscient but Jesus said that there was one thing, the day and hour of his return, that he did not know. So how could be be God?

This apparent contradiction is explained by the fact that Jesus was also human.

Have this mind among yourselves, which is yours in Christ Jesus, who, though he was in the form of God, did not count equality with God a thing to be grasped, but emptied himself, by taking the form of a servant, being born in the likeness of men.
Philippians 2:5-7

Humans are born without any knowledge and spend their lives learning new things. This was the experience of Jesus during his incarnation.

And Jesus increased in wisdom and in stature and in favor with God and man.
Luke 2:52

The education of Jesus certainly included a study of the scriptures that God has revealed and because he was a perfect human he must have acquired a perfect knowledge of the scriptures, but there are some things that God hasn’t revealed to us.

The secret things belong to the LORD our God, but the things that are revealed belong to us and to our children forever, that we may do all the words of this law.
Deuteronomy 29:29

Before his incarnation and after his resurrection Jesus had knowledge of the secret things but during the time he lived on earth he knew only the things that had been revealed. The fact that he didn’t know the day or hour of his return proves that God has never revealed that information.

Since Jesus returned to Heaven the Holy Spirit has revealed new truth to us. One new revelation is the rapture of the Church.

For this we declare to you by a word from the Lord, that we who are alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, will not precede those who have fallen asleep. For the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a cry of command, with the voice of an archangel, and with the sound of the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. Then we who are alive, who are left, will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we will always be with the Lord.
1 Thessalonians 4:15-17

God has told us the rapture will take place but he hasn’t revealed when it will happen. Paul obviously didn’t know because his use of the word “we” shows he considered it possible that he would still be alive.

Even though Jesus said we can’t know the exact time of his return there have been many who claimed they did know. Predicting the time of Christ’s return and having that prediction turn out to be wrong isn’t simply a case of interpreting the Bible incorrectly. Anyone making such a prediction is actually saying he knows more than Jesus and that he has access to information that Jesus didn’t have.

We don’t know when Jesus will return or when the other events prophesied in the Bible will take place but the Bible gives us a lot of information about what will happen in the future. If you want to study prophecy this site is a good introduction to the subject:

http://compellingtruth.org/truth_End.html
 

rakovsky

Active member
It's kind of a confusing issue. God can do anything, including incarnation and allowing himself to be in mortal form. And the mortal form can have limited knowledge, so that He had to study from elders and learn the OT, instead of being immediately omniscient. Further, even if God or Jesus theoretically had the option to sin, he would never do that.

In the case of the End Times date, you could theorize about reasons why Jesus might not know it. One reason could be that it is the Father's decision when to put the date for the End, and so the Son would not automatically know it. And further, even if the Father chose a date, the Father could still change the date, like in Jonah's story about Nineveh.

Two challenging issues are What if Jesus learned mistaken information in His early studies?, and Did the NT ever pick a time limit for the End that passed?

In the first case, we are talking about a hypothetical, like if people told Jesus that the world was flat and then he assumed this to be true. But plenty of Greeks knew that the world was round.

In the second case, it's hard to totally prove that the Bible ever gave a time limit for the end of the world. Jesus talks about signs like the moon turning to blood/red?, but the moon goes naturally through color phases, so a reddish moon doesnt prove that the world will end in X years. He tells the priests, "You" will see the Son of Man coming, but it's not certain in what form this will happen
The normal meaning would be that he means that the Second Coming will happen in the lifetime of the 1st century priests.

Likewise, when Paul says that "we who are living" will meet Jesus in the clouds, the context would normally imply that he is talking about the 2nd Coming being in his lifetime. That is in Thessalonians. But it's not definite whether Paul intends to speak uncategorically. Paul seemed to assert that the 2nd Coming would be in his lifetime, which didnt literally happen, so theologians have wrestled a little with this statement.
 

sk0rpi0n

Member
He accepted worship.

The Greek word for “worship” used in the verse you cited (John 9:38) is PROSKUNEO. It is word number 4352 in the Strong’s lexicon. The word PROSKUNEO has different meanings.

Source: https://biblehub.com/greek/4352.htm

Depending on the context, it can mean worship dedicated to God. OR it can also mean homage or honor that can be shown to humans. The acts of so called worship, that the new testament says Jesus received, was not the kind of worship that is reserved for God alone. Rather it was a form of homage and honor that can be shown to humans. Jesus, as a prophet, only received homage from his followers and those who sought his help.

Now, how can we be sure that Jesus never received Godly worship? Simple. We know for a fact that Jesus taught people to worship the Father alone. The proof of this is in the Lords prayer that Jesus himself taught. It was the only prayer ever Jesus taught. And it is addressed to the Father alone. It begins with “Our Father in heaven”. There is no mention of the “son” or Jesus. If Jesus was God the Lord’s prayer would have also been addressed to “the son”, or Jesus. But this is not the case.

We also see in Matthew 6:6, Matthew 4:10 and John 4:23 and many other verses that Jesus taught that all worship and prayer has to be addressed to God alone.

Jesus could not have said only God is to be “worshiped” (PROSKUNEO ) and at the same time, accepted Godly worship from his fellow men. So it can be concluded that the “worship” that Jesus received was an act of homage or honor, and not the type of worship that is meant only for God.
 

puddleglum

Active member
Likewise, when Paul says that "we who are living" will meet Jesus in the clouds, the context would normally imply that he is talking about the 2nd Coming being in his lifetime. That is in Thessalonians. But it's not definite whether Paul intends to speak uncategorically. Paul seemed to assert that the 2nd Coming would be in his lifetime, which didnt literally happen, so theologians have wrestled a little with this statement.

God had not revealed to Paul when the 2nd coming would take place. We are told to be ready for it at any time, so Paul simply assumed that it was possible he would be alive when it happened. We must also assume that it could happen in our lifetimes.
 

Stephen

Active member
When God appeared to Moses in the burning bush he revealed his name to him.

Then Moses said to God, “If I come to the people of Israel and say to them, ‘The God of your fathers has sent me to you,’ and they ask me, ‘What is his name?’ what shall I say to them?”

God said to Moses, “I AM WHO I AM.” And he said, “Say this to the people of Israel, ‘I AM has sent me to you.’” God also said to Moses, “Say this to the people of Israel, ‘The LORD, the God of your fathers, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob, has sent me to you.’ This is my name forever, and thus I am to be remembered throughout all generations.”
Exodus 3:13-15

God revealed to Moses that his name was I Am. Jesus applied that name to himself.

“Your father Abraham rejoiced that he would see my day. He saw it and was glad.” So the Jews said to him, “You are not yet fifty years old, and have you seen Abraham?”
Jesus said to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I Am.”
So they picked up stones to throw at him, but Jesus hid himself and went out of the temple.
John 8:56-59

These are different greek words. This is a false association. Further, the blind may said he was "I am" using the exact words of Jesus (John 9:9).

Jesus forgave sins.

And they came, bringing to him a paralytic carried by four men. And when they could not get near him because of the crowd, they removed the roof above him, and when they had made an opening, they let down the bed on which the paralytic lay.

And when Jesus saw their faith, he said to the paralytic, “Son, your sins are forgiven.”

Now some of the scribes were sitting there, questioning in their hearts, “Why does this man speak like that? He is blaspheming! Who can forgive sins but God alone?”
Mark 2:3-7

Those calling Jesus a blasphemer shouldn't be taken as a witness to the truth. Holding their position is likely a poor foundation for the truth. In contrast to their opinion, Jesus was given the power to forgive sins, and further, he gave that power to the apostles. (John 20:21-23).

If we read the Matthew account, we get a much clearer picture of this event.

Matthew 9
4 Knowing their thoughts, Jesus said, “Why do you entertain evil thoughts in your hearts? 5 Which is easier: to say, ‘Your sins are forgiven,’ or to say, ‘Get up and walk’? 6 But I want you to know that the Son of Man has authority on earth to forgive sins.” So he said to the paralyzed man, “Get up, take your mat and go home.” 7 Then the man got up and went home. 8 When the crowd saw this, they were filled with awe; and they praised God, who had given such authority to man.


I suggest that accepting the witness of those who praised God is a superior witness than the witness of those who called Jesus a blasphemer.

He accepted worship.

Jesus heard that they had cast him out, and having found him he said, “Do you believe in the Son of Man?”

He answered, “And who is he, sir, that I may believe in him?”

Jesus said to him, “You have seen him, and it is he who is speaking to you.”

He said, “Lord, I believe,” and he worshiped him.
John 9:35-38

As pointed out previously, the greek word is PROSKUNEO.

Angels accepted PROSKUNEO (Gen 19:12). Abraham PROSKUNEO the Hittites (Gen 23:7-12), Isaac says the nations will PROSKUNEO Jacob (Gen 27) . and on and on and on and on and on. And finally the Jews will be PROSKUNEO the Christians in Philadelphia (Rev 3:9).

By applying to himself a name that belonged to God, claiming to forgive sins, and accepting worship Jesus asserted his deity. But he also made a statement that seems to contradict this claim.

From the fig tree learn its lesson: as soon as its branch becomes tender and puts out its leaves, you know that summer is near. So also, when you see all these things, you know that he is near, at the very gates.

Truly, I say to you, this generation will not pass away until all these things take place. Heaven and earth will pass away, but my words will not pass away.
But concerning that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels of heaven, nor the Son, but the Father only.
Matthew 24:32-36

God is omniscient but Jesus said that there was one thing, the day and hour of his return, that he did not know. So how could be be God?

This apparent contradiction is explained by the fact that Jesus was also human.

There isn't any contradiction if you believe Jesus is the son of God, the second Adam.

However, if you believe the Holy Spirit is a person, that person isn't omniscient either. And any explanation of Jesus not being omniscient, must also include the other person if you think that person should be omniscient.
 
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