What kind of bread is epiousios?

pilgrim

Well-known member
That is patently false. God would never teach anything to us that is contrary to what He has already taught us in the Bible.
Faith alone is patently false. It contradicts the entire chapter of Matthew 25. It contradicts the book of James - infamously called once an epistle of straw.

Bonnie, why did Jesus curse the fig tree?
 

1Thess521

Well-known member
Faith alone is patently false. It contradicts the entire chapter of Matthew 25. It contradicts the book of James - infamously called once an epistle of straw.
you seemed confused:

from faithful, knowledgeable, Church-loving, Catholic apoplecticist Jimmy Akin​
"that Catholics can also accept the formula of justification sola fide (by faith alone), provided this phrase is properly understood.​
Thus the position being condemned is the idea that we are justified by intellectual assent alone (as per James 2).​
if the term faith is being used to refer to faith formed by charity then the Catholic accepts the idea of justification by faith alone."
from faithful, knowledgeable, Church-loving, Catholic Author Peter Kreeft​
quote​
"How do I resolve the Reformation?​
Is it faith alone that justifies, or is it faith and works?
Very simple. No tricks.​
On this issue I believe Luther was simply right; and this issue is absolutely crucial.​
As a Catholic I feel guilt for the tragedy of Christian disunity because the church in the fifteenth and sixteenth centuries was failing to preach the gospel.
Whatever theological mistakes Luther made, whatever indispensable truths about the Church he denied, here is an indispensable truth he affirmed — indispensable to union between all sinners and God and union between God’s separated Catholic and Protestant children."​
end quote​
Pope Francis​
Nowadays, Lutherans and Catholics, and all Protestants, are in agreement on the doctrine of justification: on this very important point he (Luther) was not mistaken.
Pope Benedict XVI​
“Luther’s expression sola fide is true
if faith is not opposed to charity, to love” (Wednesday Audience, Nov. 19, 2008).​

Faith is NOT opposed to charity, to love
THEREFORE sola fide is true
 
Last edited:

dingoling.

Well-known member
you seemed confused:

from faithful, knowledgeable, Church-loving, Catholic apoplecticist Jimmy Akin​
"that Catholics can also accept the formula of justification sola fide (by faith alone), provided this phrase is properly understood.​
Thus the position being condemned is the idea that we are justified by intellectual assent alone (as per James 2).​
if the term faith is being used to refer to faith formed by charity then the Catholic accepts the idea of justification by faith alone."
from faithful, knowledgeable, Church-loving, Catholic Author Peter Kreeft​
quote​
"How do I resolve the Reformation?​
Is it faith alone that justifies, or is it faith and works?
Very simple. No tricks.​
On this issue I believe Luther was simply right; and this issue is absolutely crucial.​
As a Catholic I feel guilt for the tragedy of Christian disunity because the church in the fifteenth and sixteenth centuries was failing to preach the gospel.
Whatever theological mistakes Luther made, whatever indispensable truths about the Church he denied, here is an indispensable truth he affirmed — indispensable to union between all sinners and God and union between God’s separated Catholic and Protestant children."​
end quote​
Pope Francis​
Nowadays, Lutherans and Catholics, and all Protestants, are in agreement on the doctrine of justification: on this very important point he (Luther) was not mistaken.
Pope Benedict XVI​
“Luther’s expression sola fide is true
if faith is not opposed to charity, to love” (Wednesday Audience, Nov. 19, 2008).​

Faith is NOT opposed to charity, to love
THEREFORE sola fide is true
What is the official church teaching on justification?
 

dingoling.

Well-known member
So, Jesus lied, in what He told the woman in Luke 7:50? Paul lied in Eph. 2:8-9?

What did Jesus say saved the woman in Luke 7:50? Did He add anything to that one word?

Once again, in Romans 4,, WHAT is credited/imputed to us as righteousness? It is the same thing that was credited/imputed to Abraham as righteousness in Genesis 15.

"For what does the Scripture say? “Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness.” 4 Now to the one who works, his wage is not credited as a favor, but as what is due. 5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is credited as righteousness."

What is that one little word, ding?
I already answered your question.

What did Jesus tell the man who asked him what he should do to obtain eternal life?
 

pilgrim

Well-known member
Pope Benedict XVI
“Luther’s expression sola fide is true
if faith is not opposed to charity, to love” (Wednesday Audience, Nov. 19, 2008).

Faith is NOT opposed to charity, to love
THEREFORE sola fide is true
Charity is good works!

Good works are faith in action.

Faith cannot be apart from works. If people say "Faith alone apart from works", that is wrong.

I am not opposed to Benedicts statement or Jimmy or James'. A living faith must have works. Call it a living faith alone. That's fine.
But it is not faith alone. The Bible warns us of the danger of "faith alone" in Matthew and James. What was the parable of the talents about?

If you believe Luther, Believe, then sin boldly and see what that gets you.
If you believe the Church, Believe and grow in virtue and see where that gets you.
 

1Thess521

Well-known member
Charity is good works!

Good works are faith in action.

Faith cannot be apart from works. If people say "Faith alone apart from works", that is wrong.

I am not opposed to Benedicts statement or Jimmy or James'. A living faith must have works. Call it a living faith alone. That's fine.
But it is not faith alone. The Bible warns us of the danger of "faith alone" in Matthew and James. What was the parable of the talents about?

If you believe Luther, Believe, then sin boldly and see what that gets you.
If you believe the Church, Believe and grow in virtue and see where that gets you.
Sola Fide addresses how we are "initially" justified by God. (using your own terminology)
We are justified by God when we accept the gift of faith prior to any works:
Faith in this context is the God-given gift NOT mere mental belief.



Jimmy Akin
that Catholics can also accept the formula of justification sola fide (by faith alone), provided this phrase is properly understood.
Thus the position being condemned is the idea that we are justified by intellectual assent alone (as per James 2).
if the term faith is being used to refer to faith formed by charity then the Catholic accepts the idea of justification by faith alone.


Peter Kreeft
A further explanation is that James means by “faith” only intellectual belief. “You believe that God is one; you do well.
Even the demons believe—and shudder” (2:19).
But Paul means by “faith” (in Galatians and Romans) something more than belief.
He means accepting Christ into your soul and thus into your life, where it produces good works as its fruit."

No Sola Fide advocate ever claimed we are justified by intellectual assent.


Because you think someone can lose their justification:
YOUR issue is with "once justified always justified"; not Sola Fide
 
Last edited:

pilgrim

Well-known member
Sola Fide addresses how we are "initially" justified by God. (using your own terminology)
We are justified by God when we accept the gift of faith prior to any works:
Faith in this context is the God-given gift NOT mere mental belief.



Jimmy Akin
that Catholics can also accept the formula of justification sola fide (by faith alone), provided this phrase is properly understood.
Thus the position being condemned is the idea that we are justified by intellectual assent alone (as per James 2).
if the term faith is being used to refer to faith formed by charity then the Catholic accepts the idea of justification by faith alone.


Peter Kreeft
A further explanation is that James means by “faith” only intellectual belief. “You believe that God is one; you do well.
Even the demons believe—and shudder” (2:19).
But Paul means by “faith” (in Galatians and Romans) something more than belief.
He means accepting Christ into your soul and thus into your life, where it produces good works as its fruit."

No Sola Fide advocate ever claimed we are justified by intellectual assent.

YOUR issue is with "once justified always justified"
Matthew 7:
“Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven.
 

1Thess521

Well-known member
No, perfect people don't have eternal life.
sure they do:
no sins in thought or deed = no punishment from God.

however:
For by works of the law no human being will be justified in his sight, since through the law comes knowledge of sin. -Rom 3:20
BECAUSE
all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, -Rom3:23
 

pilgrim

Well-known member
Sola Fide addresses how we are "initially" justified by God. (using your own terminology)
We are justified by God when we accept the gift of faith prior to any works:
Faith in this context is the God-given gift NOT mere mental belief.
We are given the gift of faith (and hope and charity) in our souls when we are justified in baptism.
Then, since we are also physical beings, we live the faith, putting those virtues in action, causing us to grow in faith.

So how is Protestant faith prior to works any different from mental belief?
 

1Thess521

Well-known member
We are given the gift of faith (and hope and charity) in our souls when we are justified in baptism.
Then, since we are also physical beings, we live the faith, putting those virtues in action, causing us to grow in faith.

So how is Protestant faith prior to works any different from mental belief?

from Jimmy Akin on EWTN (the lead apolgeticists at Catholic .com)
re: Trent
Quotes

Like all Catholic documents of the period, it <Trent> uses the term faith in the sense of intellectual belief in whatever God says.
Thus the position being condemned is the idea that we are justified by intellectual assent alone (as per James 2).

We might rephrase the canon:
If anyone says that the sinner is justified by intellectual assent alone, so as to understand that nothing besides intellectual assent is required to cooperate in the attainment of the grace of justification . . . let him be anathema.

And every non-antinomian Protestant would agree with this, since in addition to intellectual assent one must also repent, trust, etc.

So Trent does not condemn the (good) Protestant understanding of faith alone.

"Protestant idea of faith = Catholic idea of faith + Catholic idea of hope + Catholic idea of charity"

if the term faith is being used to refer to faith formed by charity then the Catholic accepts the idea of justification by faith alone.


Justification: 'By Faith Alone?' | EWTN

EWTN is a global, Catholic Television, Catholic Radio, and Catholic News Network that provides catholic programming and news coverage from around the world.
www.ewtn.com
_________________

read that again
if the term faith is being used to refer to faith formed by charity then the Catholic accepts the idea of justification by faith alone.
 

1Thess521

Well-known member
So how is Protestant faith prior to works any different from mental belief?

one is a gift from God and the other is agreeing to some facts (the faith of demons)

You Can Understand The Bible: A Practical And Illuminating Guide To Each Book In The Bible
By Peter Kreeft (Catholic author)

"A further explanation is that James means by “faith” only intellectual belief.
“You believe that God is one; you do well. Even the demons believe—and shudder” (2:19).

But Paul means by “faith” (in Galatians and Romans) something more than belief.
He means accepting Christ into your soul and thus into your life, where it produces good works as its fruit.""
 

pilgrim

Well-known member
And every non-antinomian Protestant would agree with this, since in addition to intellectual assent one must also repent, trust, etc.
Are the acts of repenting and trusting "works" that the believer must do? Can one be saved without them?
If that is the case, how is that "Faith Alone apart from works"?
 

1Thess521

Well-known member
Are the acts of repenting and trusting "works" that the believer must do?

no; they are not works.
Can one be saved without them?
no: in the same way you cannot saved without being predestined ; or adopted, or glorified
If that is the case, how is that "Faith Alone apart from works"?
Sola Fide addresses how we are justified by God:
We are justified by God by faith
.
Those who are Predestined will be saved
Those who are Elect will be saved
Those who God calls will be saved
Those who are regenerated (born again)are saved
Those who have Faith are saved
Those who Repent are saved
Those who are Justified are saved
Those who are Adopted are saved
Those who are being sanctified are saved
Those who will be glorified will be saved
 
Last edited:

1Thess521

Well-known member
Are the acts of repenting and trusting "works" that the believer must do?

If they are not works what are they?
thoughts (and the way you feel, your world view) are not works
for ex: repenting> mentally turning from sin to Christ in faith is not how they used the word "works"
 
Last edited:
Top