What kind of bread is epiousios?

dingoling.

Well-known member
Matthew 6:11, "Give us this day our daily bread." 6:11 τὸν ἄρτον ἡμῶν τὸν ἐπιούσιον δὸς ἡμῖν σήμερον

Luke 11:3, "Give us each day our daily bread." 11:3 τὸν ἄρτον ἡμῶν τὸν ἐπιούσιον δίδου ἡμῖν τὸ καθ᾽ ἡμέραν

ἐπιούσιος, epiousios - this Greek word only appears only twice in scripture and both are found in the Lord's Prayer; it is not found in any other ancient Greek literature. Scholars are not certain what the word means or why it is found only in the Lord's Prayer. It appears to be a word that was made up to describe the bread we are to be praying for. Scholars have broken the word down into two parts: epi - above and ousios - substance.

It appears that Jesus is asking us to pray for Eucharistic bread. What other kind of bread would epiousios be referring to?
 
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[[
ding;
it matters not what scripture says
you have shown by this comment
"It appears that Jesus is asking us to pray for Eucharistic bread"
ding;
your mind is already made up;
---- or ----
go to those that sell
(the merchant men in Johns revelation)
and buy from them

Proverbs 22:17​
Bow down thine ear, and hear the words of the wise,​
and apply thine heart unto my knowledge.​
18 For it is a pleasant thing if thou keep them within thee;​
they shall withal be fitted in thy lips.​
19 That thy trust may be in the Lord,​
I have made known to thee this day, even to thee.​
20 Have not I written to thee excellent things in counsels and knowledge,​
21 That I might make thee know the certainty of the words of truth;​
that thou mightest answer the words of truth to them that send unto thee?​
Matthew 6:11,​
"Give us this day our daily bread."​
-------the Bereans-----​
Acts 17:11​
These were more noble than those in Thessalonica,​
in that they received the word with all readiness of mind,​
and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so.​

and the Wise Lady says

proverbs 8​
All the words of my mouth are in righteousness;​
there is nothing froward or perverse in them.​
9 They are all plain (ezy to understand) to him that understandeth,​
and right to them that find knowledge.​
..​
5 Come, eat of my bread, and drink of the wine which I have mingled.​

she wasn't speaking of some holy Cracker, and cheap sour wine
 
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Matthew 6:11, "Give us this day our daily bread." 6:11 τὸν ἄρτον ἡμῶν τὸν ἐπιούσιον δὸς ἡμῖν σήμερον

Luke 11:3, "Give us each day our daily bread." 11:3 τὸν ἄρτον ἡμῶν τὸν ἐπιούσιον δίδου ἡμῖν τὸ καθ᾽ ἡμέραν

ἐπιούσιος, epiousios - this Greek word only appears only twice in scripture and both are found in the Lord's Prayer; it is not found in any other ancient Greek literature. Scholars are not certain what the word means or why it is found only in the Lord's Prayer. It appears to be a word that was made up to describe the bread we are to be praying for. Scholars have broken the word down into two parts: epi - above and ousios - substance.

It appears that Jesus is asking us to pray for Eucharistic bread. What other kind of bread would epiousios be referring to?

The epiousion bread in question in the Lord's Prayer is the Bread of God which is doing the will of God.

Same bread Jesus consumed. "My food is to do the will of Him who sent me and finish His work." John 4:34

We don't need to worry about asking for ordinary earthly bread to eat. We only need to worry about having the Bread of God, doing the will of God. Jesus made that clear in the same teaching as the Lord's Prayer.


25 “For this reason I say to you, do not be worried about your life, as to what you will eat or what you will drink; nor for your body, as to what you will put on. Is not life more than food, and the body more than clothing?..... 32 For the Gentiles eagerly seek all these things; for your heavenly Father knows that you need all these things. 33 But seek first His kingdom and His righteousness, and all these things will be added to you.

Jesus also made it clear what kind of bread is important during his temptation when he was hungry but only concerned about the bread of God and to live by every word which proceeds out of the mouth of God.

Your Kingdom come, Your will be done.
Give us this day Your epiousion bread.

You asked what it is and now you know.

Most do not know how or where to get this particular bread. Do you? You can't get it at a smoke and mirrors magic show.
 
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The epiousion bread in question in the Lord's Prayer is the Bread of God which is doing the will of God.

Same bread Jesus consumed. "My food is to do the will of Him who sent me and finish His work." John 4:34

We don't need to worry about asking for ordinary earthly bread to eat. We only need to worry about having the Bread of God, doing the will of God. Jesus made that clear in the same teaching as the Lord's Prayer.


25 “For this reason I say to you, do not be worried about your life, as to what you will eat or what you will drink; nor for your body, as to what you will put on. Is not life more than food, and the body more than clothing?..... 32 For the Gentiles eagerly seek all these things; for your heavenly Father knows that you need all these things. 33 But seek first His kingdom and His righteousness, and all these things will be added to you.

Jesus also made it clear what kind of bread is important during his temptation when he was hungry but only concerned about the bread of God and to live by every word which proceeds out of the mouth of God.

Your Kingdom come, Your will be done.
Give us this day Your epiousion bread.

You asked what it is and now you know.

Most do not know how or where to get this particular bread. Do you? You can't get it at a smoke and mirrors magic show.
Thanks for responding. That is an interesting explanation.

Epiousios could be referring to the bread that came down from heaven that gives life to the world. Jesus is the bread of life.
 
Epiousios could be referring to the bread that came down from heaven that gives life to the world. Jesus is the bread of life.
All quotes:
In the identical contexts of Matthew and Luke—that is, reporting the Lord's Prayer—Jerome translated epiousios in two different ways: by morphological analysis as 'supersubstantial' (supersubstantialem) in Matthew 6:11, but retaining 'daily' (quotidianum) in Luke 11:3.​
This translation has often been connected to the eucharist. The bread necessary for existence is the communion bread of the Last Supper.​
Those rejecting this translation include some Roman Catholic Biblical scholars, such as Raymond E. Brown, Jean Carmignac, and Nicholas Ayo​
Daily has long been the most common English translation of epiousios.​
The "for the future" translation is today held by the majority of scholars.
Early supporters of this translation include Cyril of Alexandria and Peter of Laodicea by way of linking epiousios with the verb epienai, "of tomorrow.​
To sum up, both modern and ancient scholars have proposed several different translations for epiousios.
Even Jerome, the most important translator of the Bible to Latin, translated this same word in the same context in two different ways.
Today there is no consensus on the exact meaning.
end quotes

This does not rise to the level of a proof text.
 
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The rc mass is very mechanical and robotic. RC's get baptized, fall from grace, confess, receive communion and 'hope' they are on the upside before they die. What a downer!
The Mass is very solemn and beautiful. It is a foretaste of heaven where we worship God as He asked us to worship Him, and receive Him in Holy Communion.

1 Cor 11:23 For I received from the Lord what I also delivered to you, that the Lord Jesus on the night when he was betrayed took bread, 24 and when he had given thanks, he broke it, and said, “This is my body which is for you. Do this in remembrance of me.” 25 In the same way also the cup, after supper, saying, “This cup is the new covenant in my blood. Do this, as often as you drink it, in remembrance of me.” 26 For as often as you eat this bread and drink the cup, you proclaim the Lord’s death until he comes.
 
Thanks for responding. That is an interesting explanation.

Epiousios could be referring to the bread that came down from heaven that gives life to the world. Jesus is the bread of life.

No, he isn't referring to the Eucharist.

The Lord's prayer is about submission to God and His will. It isn't asking for what we want for ourselves but what God wants us to do. He isn't Santa Claus.
 
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[[
ding;
it matters not what scripture says
you have shown by this comment
"It appears that Jesus is asking us to pray for Eucharistic bread"
ding;
your mind is already made up;
---- or ----
go to those that sell
(the merchant men in Johns revelation)
and buy from them

Proverbs 22:17​
Bow down thine ear, and hear the words of the wise,​
and apply thine heart unto my knowledge.​
18 For it is a pleasant thing if thou keep them within thee;​
they shall withal be fitted in thy lips.​
19 That thy trust may be in the Lord,​
I have made known to thee this day, even to thee.​
20 Have not I written to thee excellent things in counsels and knowledge,​
21 That I might make thee know the certainty of the words of truth;​
that thou mightest answer the words of truth to them that send unto thee?​
Matthew 6:11,​
"Give us this day our daily bread."​
-------the Bereans-----​
Acts 17:11​
These were more noble than those in Thessalonica,​
in that they received the word with all readiness of mind,​
and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so.​

and the Wise Lady says

proverbs 8​
All the words of my mouth are in righteousness;​
there is nothing froward or perverse in them.​
9 They are all plain (ezy to understand) to him that understandeth,​
and right to them that find knowledge.​
..​
5 Come, eat of my bread, and drink of the wine which I have mingled.​

she wasn't speaking of some holy Cracker, and cheap sour wine
None of the passages you referenced have the same form of the Greek word used in the Lord's prayer. This means nothing of what you posted even begins to interact with the post.
 
The epiousion bread in question in the Lord's Prayer is the Bread of God which is doing the will of God.

Same bread Jesus consumed. "My food is to do the will of Him who sent me and finish His work." John 4:34

We don't need to worry about asking for ordinary earthly bread to eat. We only need to worry about having the Bread of God, doing the will of God. Jesus made that clear in the same teaching as the Lord's Prayer.


25 “For this reason I say to you, do not be worried about your life, as to what you will eat or what you will drink; nor for your body, as to what you will put on. Is not life more than food, and the body more than clothing?..... 32 For the Gentiles eagerly seek all these things; for your heavenly Father knows that you need all these things. 33 But seek first His kingdom and His righteousness, and all these things will be added to you.

Jesus also made it clear what kind of bread is important during his temptation when he was hungry but only concerned about the bread of God and to live by every word which proceeds out of the mouth of God.

Your Kingdom come, Your will be done.
Give us this day Your epiousion bread.

You asked what it is and now you know.

Most do not know how or where to get this particular bread. Do you? You can't get it at a smoke and mirrors magic show.
I agree we cannot get this bread at a smoke and mirrors magic show. This is probably why the center of Catholic Christianity is Rome, not Las Vegas, and priests are not magicians putting on a show, but ministers of the Lord leading worship and offering Mass.

You believe the miracles in the Bible, right? Is that magic?

The Eucharist is no more magic than any other miracle in the Bible.
 
I agree we cannot get this bread at a smoke and mirrors magic show. This is probably why the center of Catholic Christianity is Rome, not Las Vegas, and priests are not magicians putting on a show, but ministers of the Lord leading worship and offering Mass.

Same thing.

You believe the miracles in the Bible, right? Is that magic?

The Eucharist is no more magic than any other miracle in the Bible.

There is a big difference between the power of God and the world's magicians. Simply choosing to identify your magicians' smoke and mirrors magic show as the power of God isn't going to make it so anymore than you deciding to identify yourself as a carrot.
 
The rc mass is very mechanical and robotic. RC's get baptized, fall from grace, confess, receive communion and 'hope' they are on the upside before they die. What a downer!
It is a deception and there is only one source for that kind of thing and it is not God/Jesus. It deceives them into thinking they are getting extra graces which is untrue. I mean it supposedly can provide forgivness for veneral sins!! Their leaders prove that the it is a hoax.
 
]

None of the passages you referenced have the same form of the Greek word used in the Lord's prayer. This means nothing of what you posted even begins to interact with the post.
Certainty it does
my point was; and has always been
the words of Christ and Paul
was; and still are today
as the Wise Lady says

proverbs 8
All the words of my mouth are in righteousness;
there is nothing froward or perverse in them.

9 They are all plain (ezy to understand) to him that understandeth,
and right to them that find knowledge
.
=============================================
unfortunately; posters;
we have these gentlemen amongest us
(Peter says basically the same of these men)​
Jude 1:10​
But these speak evil of those things which they know not:​
but what they know naturally, as brute beasts,​
in those things they corrupt themselves.​
12 These are spots in your feasts of charity, when they feast with you,​
feeding themselves without fear: clouds they are without water,​
carried about of winds; trees whose fruit withereth,​
without fruit, twice dead, plucked up by the roots;​
13 Raging waves of the sea, foaming out their own shame;​
wandering stars, to whom is reserved the blackness of darkness for ever​
"Built on the Rock -<vs>- Built on the Sand"​
Words of Christ -vs>- their "fabricated and concocted stories"​
Raging waves of the sea, foaming out their own shame;​
"And I stood on the sands of the Sea;"​
and I saw............... and the dragon gave him his power,​
his seat, and great authority.(Rev.ch.13)​

the words of the wise
are all plain (ezy to understand)
so romishpopishorganist ;
what is your problem ???

the only people that have trouble with Christ and Paul;
are as Peter says
please notice this in in the same Letter
that Peter speaks of False teachers
and their "fabricated and concocted stories"
2Peter 3:16​
Paul ..... hath written unto you;​
16 As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things;​
in which are some things hard to be understood,​
which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest,​
as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.​

hard to be understood by
"the unlearned and unstable "

----------- their "fabricated and concocted stories"-----------
concocted
to make something, usually food, by adding several different parts together,

Matt.13:33
The kingdom of heaven is like unto leaven,
which a woman took, and hid in three measures of meal,
till the whole was leavened.

and it was during "the church in Thyatira" this was fulfilled

that woman Jezebel, which calleth herself a prophetess,
to teach and to seduce my servants to commit fornication,
and to
eat things sacrificed unto idols

but not everyone bought into; nor taught
their "fabricated and concocted stories"

But unto you I say, and unto the rest in Thyatira,
as many as have not (believed nor taught) this doctrine,
and which have not known the depths of Satan,
as
they speak; (those that did and taught as truth)
I will put upon you none other burden.

Matt.13:44
no other burden on them
Again, the kingdom of heaven is like unto treasure hid in a field;
the which when a man hath found, he hideth,
Don't cast your pearls before Swine
lest ....................​

then there are these that
Feast not on the Treasures of Gods word
---but---
Isaiah 66:17
Just feasting on the "FLESH" of Swine
They that sanctify themselves,
and purify themselves in the gardens behind one tree in the midst,
eating swine's flesh, and the abomination, and the mouse,
shall be consumed together, saith the Lord.
=============================================


John 1:14
And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us,
full of grace and truth.
Jn 6:
Many therefore of his disciples, when they had heard this,
said,
This is a hard saying; who can hear (understand) it?

well;;; Peter and the other 11 did

" thou hast the words of eternal life."


==============================

one more Tid-Bit found in John ch 6
a wicked and evil generation seeketh after a sign
John 6:30
"They said therefore unto him,
What sign shewest thou then,
that we may see, and believe thee?
what dost thou work
?"
 
I asked my cyber scholar friend, Dr. Luginbill, who teaches Biblical Greek at the university where he works, about the OP, which I sent to him.
He responded:

The way correspondent describes the word gives the impression that a Greek speaker of the day would have been dumbfounded about its meaning. In fact, it's meaning is clear. At Acts 7:26; 16:11; 20:15; 21:18; 23:11 we have an almost identical form of this adjective which is derived from the same verb meaning "to come on" in a temporal sense. In the Lord's prayer, anticipated as a prayer prayed at the start of each day, the "bread for the coming day" is the bread/support we need to get through the day ahead. We are not supposed to worry about tomorrow (Matt.6:34), but it is legitimate to pray at the start of it for what we need to get through "the coming day".
Here is something I've posted about this:
I translate the verse in which the word occurs in Matthew as follows (Lk.11:3 has identical wording for "daily bread"):
Give us today the bread [we need] for the coming day.
Matthew 6:11
The adjective is derived from the participle of the verb come/go plus the preposition epi which commonly "points"; so "coming here" is the meaning, namely, in the near future in a temporal context (and we know it is a temporal context from the verse: "this day"). So "daily bread" is not a bad translation. Our Lord provides for us each day for what we will face that day, and if we follow scriptural advice we will not be concerned about yesterday nor will we worry about tomorrow, for we can be sure that He will take care of us "today", "as long as it is called 'today'" (Heb.3:13).
I asked him for clarification about the word for "bread." He then responded with this:

The Greek quoted by correspondent is, in Greek order, "the bread of us the daily", and it is last word, epiousios, which correspondent is speculating about (incorrectly). The word "bread" here is the standard Greek word for bread since Classical times (artos) and occurs countless times throughout Greek literature. The word epiousios, which we are debating the meaning, indeed only occurs here in the NT and then occasionally in the patristics. As mentioned, the word from which it is clearly derived, however, is very common so that, along with the context, there is little doubt about what is meant: bread that is "coming our way this new and coming day".

So no, Jesus wasn't talking about the Eucharistic bread, but simply bread for food, though "bread" can mean all food necessary for life.
 
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I asked my cyber scholar friend, Dr. Luginbill, who teaches Biblical Greek at the university where he works, about the OP, which I sent to him.
He responded:
And I respond:

Why shouldn't we pray for God to daily give us the Eucharistic bread?

Your "scholar" friend might be a good Greek scholar, but he isn't a theologian.

Catholics have Mass daily because we see the Eucharistic bread just as important, if not MORE SO than daily bread as in bodily food.

So--yeah---"Give us this day our daily bread" can and I think does refer to the Eucharistic bread. This, especially since Tradition hands on that the Lord's Prayer is recited at Mass right before reception of Communion. In other words----The Lord's Prayer in the Catholic Mass comes in the context of the Eucharist--which tells us that the Church sees a connection between "Give us this day our daily bread" and the Eucharistic bread.
 
I asked my cyber scholar friend, Dr. Luginbill, who teaches Biblical Greek at the university where he works, about the OP, which I sent to him.
He responded:
John 6:27 Do not labor for the food which perishes, but for the food which endures to eternal life, which the Son of man will give to you; for on him has God the Father set his seal.”

Which food do you think we are asking for in the Our Father prayer?
 
And I respond:

Why shouldn't we pray for God to daily give us the Eucharistic bread?

Because there is no need to ask for the Lord's Supper. You just do it.

Asking for the Lord's Supper is absurd when Jesus already instituted it for disciples to do whenever they wish.

To suppose Jesus is teaching his 12 Jewish disciples that they should be asking for daily transubstantiated bread is the height of insanity.

Your "scholar" friend might be a good Greek scholar, but he isn't a theologian.

Catholics have Mass daily because we see the Eucharistic bread just as important, if not MORE SO than daily bread as in bodily food.

So--yeah---"Give us this day our daily bread" can and I think does refer to the Eucharistic bread.


You will need your imaginations for that.

The FACTS demonstrate otherwise. He is talking about the will of God which is the bread of God.

Your will be done
Give us this day our epiousion bread

This, especially since Tradition hands on that the Lord's Prayer is recited at Mass right before reception of Communion. In other words----The Lord's Prayer in the Catholic Mass comes in the context of the Eucharist--which tells us that the Church sees a connection between "Give us this day our daily bread" and the Eucharistic bread.
 
And I respond:

Why shouldn't we pray for God to daily give us the Eucharistic bread?

Because Jesus was talking about physical needs for the body.
Your "scholar" friend might be a good Greek scholar, but he isn't a theologian.

And it takes a Greek scholar to know what that word really means, its "roots" and how it is used. No theologian is necessary.
Catholics have Mass daily because we see the Eucharistic bread just as important, if not MORE SO than daily bread as in bodily food.

Certainly the Lord's Supper is important, but nowhere did Jesus specify how often to partake of it.
So--yeah---"Give us this day our daily bread" can and I think does refer to the Eucharistic bread.

No, it does not. You just wish it to mean that. That does not make it true.
This, especially since Tradition hands on that the Lord's Prayer is recited at Mass right before reception of Communion. In other words----The Lord's Prayer in the Catholic Mass comes in the context of the Eucharist--which tells us that the Church sees a connection between "Give us this day our daily bread" and the Eucharistic bread.
We say the Lord's Prayer before Communion as well, but see the daily bread to mean everything we need for that day--food, drink, clothing, shelter...

But to reiterate, you are not an expert in Biblical Greek--Luginbill is. He studied it for 11 years and has been teaching it for decades. When it comes to what the Greek word actually means, I will take his expertise over what you want it to mean any day of the week.
 
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