What mans religion teaches about faith and repentance

TomFL

Well-known member
Do you understand the ramifications of what you believe ? Read post 37
The ramification are I am in agreement with scripture and you are not

You need to read the context of what you quote so you can know who it is speaking of
and stop taking verses out of context

Rom. 5:1–2 —ESV
Ҧ Therefore, since we have been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ.
Through him we have also obtained access by faith into this grace in which we stand, and we rejoice in hope of the glory of God.”

It is through faith one has access to blood bought justification
 

brightfame52

Well-known member
The ramification are I am in agreement with scripture and you are not

You need to read the context of what you quote so you can know who it is speaking of
and stop taking verses out of context

Rom. 5:1–2 —ESV
Ҧ Therefore, since we have been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ.
Through him we have also obtained access by faith into this grace in which we stand, and we rejoice in hope of the glory of God.”

It is through faith one has access to blood bought justification
The ramifications are you teach salvation by works and take away from the efficasiousness of the Blood of Christ, and I am giving you reasons why that is so !
 

Yahweh will increase

Well-known member
Are Faith and Repentance evangelical truths that must be preached ? The answer is absolutely yes, Jesus said Lk 24:47

And that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in his name among all nations, beginning at Jerusalem.

So its no doubt that sound Gospel preaching includes repentance. However where men go wrong is when they make repentance and or faith conditions for Justification before God ! They say that men and women for whom Christ died are not justified, made righteous before God without them ! They are in essence saying that everything Christ did for them in His Person and Work fell short in making them righteous/justified before God.
That is ridiculous, for even though God is the one who brings a man or woman to repentance and faith in the gospel message, it is still required in God's righteousness, that they make the choice to repent and believe before they can be sealed as his elect by the Holy Spirit.

If they wont repent and believe, that simply means that they are not his sealed with the Holy Spirit as being his elect until they do.

It is only by God's mercy and grace leading them to repentance and faith, that they will repent and believe, but in his righteousness, he still requires that they make the choice to repent and believe in order to prove that he chose them as his elect.

By the way, there is a difference between someone being God's predestined elect and them being justified, for in order for any of God's chosen elect to be actually saved and sealed in the Holy Spirit, they must be justified by the action of their own choice to repent and believe even though God motivates them to that end.

So even if they are his elect and bound for justification in the future through repentance and faith, they still cannot be justified until they choose to repent and believe.




Joseph
 
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brightfame52

Well-known member
That is ridiculous, for even though God is the one who brings a man or woman to repentance and faith in the gospel message, it is still required in God's righteousness, that they make the choice to repent and believe before they can be sealed as his elect by the Holy Spirit.

If they wont repent and believe, that simply means that they are not his sealed with the Holy Spirit as being his elect until they do.

It is only by God's mercy and grace leading them to repentance and faith, that they will repent and believe, but in his righteousness, he still requires that they make the choice to repent and believe in order to prove that he chose them as his elect.

By the way, there is a difference between someone being God's predestined elect and them being justified, for in order for any of God's chosen elect to be actually saved and sealed in the Holy Spirit, they must be justified by the action of their own choice to repent and believe even though God motivates them to that end.

So even if they are his elect and bound for justification in the future through repentance and faith, they still cannot be justified until they choose to repent and believe.




Joseph
No its not ridiculous save in your own mind !
 

Yahweh will increase

Well-known member
No its not ridiculous save in your own mind !
It most certainly is ridiculous and also quite contrary to what the Bible actually teaches, for even if someone is God's elect and chosen from the foundation of the world, they are still not justified until they repent of their sins and believe the gospel message of salvation through Christ.

Romans 5:1 Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ.

Therefore, it matters not whether or not they are predestined to be God's elect and to be justified through repentance and faith, they still must repent and believe before they are justified and are sealed with the Holy Spirit of God's promise as his elect and that is how the Bible reveals it period.
 

brightfame52

Well-known member
It most certainly is ridiculous and also quite contrary to what the Bible actually teaches, for even if someone is God's elect and chosen from the foundation of the world, they are still not justified until they repent of their sins and believe the gospel message of salvation through Christ.

Romans 5:1 Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ.

Therefore, it matters not whether or not they are predestined to be God's elect and to be justified through repentance and faith, they still must repent and believe before they are justified and are sealed with the Holy Spirit of God's promise as his elect and that is how the Bible reveals it period.
No its not. You teach a salvation by the works of men and take away from the efficaciousness of the Cross, which gives to the elect both faith and repentance in the newbirth !
 

Yahweh will increase

Well-known member
No its not. You teach a salvation by the works of men and take away from the efficaciousness of the Cross, which gives to the elect both faith and repentance in the newbirth !
Baloney and you never heard me teach any such thing and never will either but rather a salvation by the workmanship of God from beginning to end and just like the Bible teaches.

By the way, the actual new birth itself doesn't occur until after God first leads a man or woman to repent and believe so they can receive the Spirit in order to be born again and not a minute sooner.

Furthermore, his leading his elect to repentance and faith is what God works all through their lives and until they are ready to give up on themselves and repent and believe in him through Jesus Christ.

I know all about this also, for this is what he did in my life, for he began working on me from a very early age and using every experience of life that I went through to turn me towards himself, but it wasn't until late 1971 that he finally got me to surrender to him to repent and believe the gospel message.

God brings his elect to repentance and faith from the experiences that they go through all their lives and therefore he does this outside of their hearts in order to bring them to make a choice in their heart to repent and believe and then he finishes his work within their hearts by the Holy Spirit and new birth.

God cannot dwell within the heart of his elect until they repent and believe, so your idea that he makes the choice for them from within them is totally false and not what the Bible reveals at all.

The way that God does this, is to bring his elect to the place where they are sick and tired of living life without him and then he opens his elects eyes to the truth and at which point they will repent and believe the gospel message and be justified and saved and also born again by his Spirit and grace.
 
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brightfame52

Well-known member
When religionist make faith or repentance or anything else for that matter conditions man must meet in order to get saved or justified before God, they are introducing works into the equation. These acts or human actions become equal determinants for Salvation/Justification which robs Christ of His Glory and gives prideful man an occasion to boast !
 

Yahweh will increase

Well-known member
When religionist make faith or repentance or anything else for that matter conditions man must meet in order to get saved or justified before God, they are introducing works into the equation. These acts or human actions become equal determinants for Salvation/Justification which robs Christ of His Glory and gives prideful man an occasion to boast !
Not when it is God's working on them that causes them to repent and believe it isn't.

For that is what you fail to understand, for it is still what he does and not what they do, that brings them to the point where they are willing to repent and believe but he doesn't come into their heart to make them do it.

Rather, he works on them from the outside and through the experiences of life both good and bad that they go through all their lives and also through their conscience and until they are finished with living life on their own and in their own way and have a change of heart to repent and believe the gospel message.

There is no boasting here, because God is still the one who brings them to this point and working on them all through their lives until they are ready and then he opens their eyes to the truth of the gospel message and they are miraculously saved.

For if God just left them alone and didn't bother with them, but just left them to their own life and decisions in life, they would never repent and believe but he works through their experience in life and also through their conscience until they are ready to obey the gospel message and repent and believe.

This is also, why he cannot choose all human beings to be saved equally, for God uses the vessels of dishonor, to have an effect on the the vessels of mercy to bring them to the place of giving up on their own way, so that they will repent and believe and how he used Egypt this way with Israel is a perfect example of this.


Romans 9

17 For Scripture says to Pharaoh: “I raised you up for this very purpose, that I might display my power in you and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth.”

21 Does not the potter have the right to make out of the same lump of clay some pottery for special purposes and some for common use?

22 What if God, although choosing to show his wrath and make his power known, bore with great patience the objects of his wrath—prepared for destruction? 23 What if he did this to make the riches of his glory known to the objects of his mercy, whom he prepared in advance for glory— 24 even us, whom he also called, not only from the Jews but also from the Gentiles?

Isaiah 43:3​

New International Version​

3 For I am the Lord your God,
the Holy One of Israel, your Savior;
I give Egypt for your ransom,
Cush[a] and Seba in your stead.

Very clearly therefore, God uses some of the same lump of sinful clay to have an effect to save the part from the same lump of sinful clay that he predestined to bring to salvation.

Just look at what he did with the pressure that Pharaoh and Egypt brought upon Israel and which made them cry out to God for his mercy in repentance and faith for a deliverer..

This is what I am talking about and it is quite a shame that most Calvinists really don't understand this truth from the scriptures but they don't. If God hadn't chosen them to be delivered, then he would have just left them alone to their own choices and devices to deal with it all.


Joseph
 
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TomFL

Well-known member
The ramifications are you teach salvation by works and take away from the efficasiousness of the Blood of Christ, and I am giving you reasons why that is so !
Wrong faith and works are antithetical

Eph. 2:8–9 —KJV
“For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
Not of works, lest any man should boast.”

Rom. 4:16 —ESV
“¶ That is why it depends on faith, in order that the promise may rest on grace and be guaranteed to all his offspring—not only to the adherent of the law but also to the one who shares the faith of Abraham, who is the father of us all,”

Rom. 3:20–22 —ESV
“For by works of the law no human being will be justified in his sight, since through the law comes knowledge of sin.
¶ But now the righteousness of God has been manifested apart from the law, although the Law and the Prophets bear witness to it—
the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all who believe. For there is no distinction:”
 

brightfame52

Well-known member
Baloney and you never heard me teach any such thing and never will either but rather a salvation by the workmanship of God from beginning to end and just like the Bible teaches.

By the way, the actual new birth itself doesn't occur until after God first leads a man or woman to repent and believe so they can receive the Spirit in order to be born again and not a minute sooner.

Furthermore, his leading his elect to repentance and faith is what God works all through their lives and until they are ready to give up on themselves and repent and believe in him through Jesus Christ.

I know all about this also, for this is what he did in my life, for he began working on me from a very early age and using every experience of life that I went through to turn me towards himself, but it wasn't until late 1971 that he finally got me to surrender to him to repent and believe the gospel message.

God brings his elect to repentance and faith from the experiences that they go through all their lives and therefore he does this outside of their hearts in order to bring them to make a choice in their heart to repent and believe and then he finishes his work within their hearts by the Holy Spirit and new birth.

God cannot dwell within the heart of his elect until they repent and believe, so your idea that he makes the choice for them from within them is totally false and not what the Bible reveals at all.

The way that God does this, is to bring his elect to the place where they are sick and tired of living life without him and then he opens his elects eyes to the truth and at which point they will repent and believe the gospel message and be justified and saved and also born again by his Spirit and grace.
Add cheese with your baloney, you definitely teach Justification before God is conditioned on the acts of the sinner repenting and believing ! Thats works no matter how you guise it !
 

Yahweh will increase

Well-known member
Wrong faith and works are antithetical

Eph. 2:8–9 —KJV
“For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
Not of works, lest any man should boast.”

Rom. 4:16 —ESV
“¶ That is why it depends on faith, in order that the promise may rest on grace and be guaranteed to all his offspring—not only to the adherent of the law but also to the one who shares the faith of Abraham, who is the father of us all,”

Rom. 3:20–22 —ESV
“For by works of the law no human being will be justified in his sight, since through the law comes knowledge of sin.
¶ But now the righteousness of God has been manifested apart from the law, although the Law and the Prophets bear witness to it—
the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all who believe. For there is no distinction:”
Indeed God gives the elect faith when he first brings them to the end of themselves in repentance and like I said.

So how does God give them faith, what does the Bible say about this?


Romans 10:17 "Now faith comes by hearing and hearing by the "rhema" "word" of God".

The rhema is when God opens someone's spiritual eyes, ears and understanding so that he speaks the scriptures into their hearts by his Holy Spirit and when this happens, it produces faith within them and just like Paul says here and also in Romans 10:8-10 as well.

I understand this very well because the night I got saved, I was reading the Bible on the living room floor of my Father's house and God miraculously opened my spiritual eye's, ear's and understanding to what I was reading so that it produced faith within my heart to get saved by.


I had read the Bible many times before and had others share things from the Bible unto me and never could understand it but that night, it was as if the lights came on in my heart and I finally understood the word and the gospel message and believed in my heart.

For it is only by the rhema of God that any can have faith or understand the truth and that goes for any Bible truth also and from the beginning of salvation to it's completion as well and that is why so many on this forum do not understand God's word correctly also.


For they attempt to know it by secular learning processes like the Jews also got caught up with and they therefore have substituted the Holy Spirit for their own carnal human reasoning and wisdom and just like the church of Corinth was caught up in also and as per Paul's words in 1 Corinthians chapters 1-3 especially.


Never the less, they must all be brought to repentance by God's workmanship in their lives first .
 
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TomFL

Well-known member
Indeed God gives the elect faith when he first brings them to the end of themselves in repentance and like I said.

So how does God give them faith, what does the Bible say about this?


Romans 10:17 "Now faith comes by hearing and hearing by the "rhema" "word" of God".

The rhema is when God opens someone's spiritual eyes, ears and understanding so that he speaks the scriptures into their hearts by his Holy Spirit and when this happens, it produces faith within them and just like Paul says here and also in Romans 10:8-10 as well.

I understand this very well because the night I got saved, I was reading the Bible on the living room floor of my Father's house and God miraculously opened my spiritual eye's, ear's and understanding to what I was reading so that it produced faith within my heart to get saved by.


I had read the Bible many times before and had others share things from the Bible unto me and never could understand it but that night, it was as if the lights came on in my heart and I finally understood the word and the gospel message and believed in my heart.

For it is only by the rhema of God that any can have faith or understand the truth and that goes for any Bible truth also and from the beginning of salvation to it's completion as well and that is why so many on this forum do not understand God's word correctly also.


For they attempt to know it by secular learning processes like the Jews also got caught up with and they therefore have substituted the Holy Spirit for their own carnal human reasoning and wisdom and just like the church of Corinth was caught up in also and as per Paul's words in 1 Corinthians chapters 1-3 especially.


Never the less, they must all be brought to repentance by God's workmanship in their lives first .
The bible says nothing at all about God giving the elect faith

Rather men are elect when they believe and are placed in Christ

Eph. 1:13 —KJV
“In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,”
 

Yahweh will increase

Well-known member
Add cheese with your baloney, you definitely teach Justification before God is conditioned on the acts of the sinner repenting and believing ! Thats works no matter how you guise it !
And the above is also your own ignorance, no matter how you guise it?

For as I said and will again, it is not brought about by any human works whatsoever but rather by the workmanship of God, for if not, then they would never be saved at all period.


Ephesians 2:8-10 "For by grace are you saved through faith and not that of yourself (Romans 10:17), it is the gift of God and not by (human) works lest any man should boast. For we are his (God"s) workmanship created unto God works which God has before ordained that we should walk in them".

You are like so many others that I conversed with on this forum, for unless it is what you believe about it, it is wrong even when it is proven from the Bible to be truth.

For like I said and will again, it is because you have substituted the discernment of the Holy Spirit with your own carnal human reasoning and intellectual learning processes and therefore you end up remembering everything, while learning nothing.
 

brightfame52

Well-known member
Wrong faith and works are antithetical

Eph. 2:8–9 —KJV
“For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
Not of works, lest any man should boast.”

Rom. 4:16 —ESV
“¶ That is why it depends on faith, in order that the promise may rest on grace and be guaranteed to all his offspring—not only to the adherent of the law but also to the one who shares the faith of Abraham, who is the father of us all,”

Rom. 3:20–22 —ESV
“For by works of the law no human being will be justified in his sight, since through the law comes knowledge of sin.
¶ But now the righteousness of God has been manifested apart from the law, although the Law and the Prophets bear witness to it—
the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all who believe. For there is no distinction:”
Thats some serious ramifications son ! We can only hope God may give you repentance from that evil !
 

TomFL

Well-known member
Thats some serious ramifications son ! We can only hope God may give you repentance from that evil !
You failed to address the scriptures

It is you who needs repentance for ignoring God's word

Eph. 2:8–9 —KJV
“For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
Not of works, lest any man should boast.”

Rom. 4:16 —ESV
“¶ That is why it depends on faith, in order that the promise may rest on grace and be guaranteed to all his offspring—not only to the adherent of the law but also to the one who shares the faith of Abraham, who is the father of us all,”

Rom. 3:20–22 —ESV
“For by works of the law no human being will be justified in his sight, since through the law comes knowledge of sin.
¶ But now the righteousness of God has been manifested apart from the law, although the Law and the Prophets bear witness to it—
the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all who believe. For there is no distinction:”
 

brightfame52

Well-known member
And the above is also your own ignorance, no matter how you guise it?

For as I said and will again, it is not brought about by any human works whatsoever but rather by the workmanship of God, for if not, then they would never be saved at all period.


Ephesians 2:8-10 "For by grace are you saved through faith and not that of yourself (Romans 10:17), it is the gift of God and not by (human) works lest any man should boast. For we are his (God"s) workmanship created unto God works which God has before ordained that we should walk in them".

You are like so many others that I conversed with on this forum, for unless it is what you believe about it, it is wrong even when it is proven from the Bible to be truth.

For like I said and will again, it is because you have substituted the discernment of the Holy Spirit with your own carnal human reasoning and intellectual learning processes and therefore you end up remembering everything, while learning nothing.
Again, you take Spiritual blessings that are the fruit of Christs death, and turn them into acts the natural man must do in order to get saved, thats salvation by the works and will of man any way you slice it !
 

brightfame52

Well-known member
You failed to address the scriptures

It is you who needs repentance for ignoring God's word

Eph. 2:8–9 —KJV
“For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
Not of works, lest any man should boast.”

Rom. 4:16 —ESV
“¶ That is why it depends on faith, in order that the promise may rest on grace and be guaranteed to all his offspring—not only to the adherent of the law but also to the one who shares the faith of Abraham, who is the father of us all,”

Rom. 3:20–22 —ESV
“For by works of the law no human being will be justified in his sight, since through the law comes knowledge of sin.
¶ But now the righteousness of God has been manifested apart from the law, although the Law and the Prophets bear witness to it—
the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all who believe. For there is no distinction:”
Theres nothing to address about those scriptures they all good, people are guilty of teaching salvation by works, by the doings of men, thats a false way of salvation. None of the scriptures you quoted teach salvation by works of men !
 

TomFL

Well-known member
Again, you take Spiritual blessings that are the fruit of Christs death, and turn them into acts the natural man must do in order to get saved, thats salvation by the works and will of man any way you slice it !
Not according to the bible

Rom. 3:20–28 —KJV
“Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.
But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets;
Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:
For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;
Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:
Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;
To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus.
Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? Nay: but by the law of faith.
Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.”
 

TomFL

Well-known member
Theres nothing to address about those scriptures they all good, people are guilty of teaching salvation by works, by the doings of men, thats a false way of salvation. None of the scriptures you quoted teach salvation by works of men !
They show salvation is through faith and not works

and therefore contradict your claims

Rom. 3:20–28 —KJV
“Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.
But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets;
Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:
For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;
Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:
Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;
To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus.
Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? Nay: but by the law of faith.
Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.”

you need to actually read the verse not just claim to believe it
 
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