What "sacraments" is Cyprian referring back to by (sacramentis coelestibus) "these heavenly sacraments" in De Unitate 6.5-6?

What "sacraments" is Cyprian referring back to by (sacramentis coelestibus) "these heavenly sacraments" in De Unitate 6.5-6?

CYPRIAN

ON THE UNITY OF THE CHURCH.

Translated by Robert Ernest Wallis

Chapter 6.


"...of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit, 'And these three are one.' And does any one believe that this unity which thus comes from the divine strength and coheres in celestial sacraments, can be divided in the Church, and can be separated by the parting asunder of opposing wills? He who does not hold this unity does not hold God's law, does not hold the faith of the Father and the Son, does not hold life and salvation..."


 
Fact 1.

Cyprian never said anywhere in the entire body of his extant written works that (specifically) the Father and the Son (or the Word) and the Holy Spirit were, quote [Latin "inquit"]: "heavenly witnesses" - period!

Any one who might say that Cyprian said or wrote that the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit were/are "heavenly witnesses", or that Cyprian called the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit by the specific phrase: "heavenly witnesses" is spreading counterfactual disinformation.

Cyprian is certainly silent about any "heavenly witnesses" for he does not say or write about "heavenly witnesses" in De Ecclesiae Catholicae Unitate 6, or anywhere else in his genuine (note genuine contra pseudo) works.

Fact 2.

Cyprian does use the mysterious phrase "these heavenly sacraments" in De Ecclesiae Catholicae Unitate 6 in direct connection to the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit in the immediate/preceding context.

Everybody should only interested in the facts, not disinformation.
 

Steven Avery

Well-known member
Any one who might say that Cyprian said or wrote that the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit were/are "heavenly witnesses", or that Cyprian called the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit by the specific phrase: "heavenly witnesses" is spreading counterfactual disinformation.

Who did that?
 
CYPRIAN

De Ecclesiae Catholicae Unitate

Chapter 6


"Dicit Dominus: 'Ego et Pater unum sum.' Et iterum de Patre et Filio et Spiritu Sancto scriptum est: 'Et hi tres unum sunt'. Et quisquam credit hanc unitatem de divina firmitate venientem, sacramentis coelestibus cohaerentem, scindi in Ecclesia posse et voluntatum collidentium divortio separari? Hanc unitatem qui non tenet, Dei legem non tenet, non tenet Patris et Filii fidem, vitam non tenet et salutem."

Translated by John Scott Porter 1848

“The Lord says, 'I and my Father are one;' and again it hath been written concerning the Father, and the Son, and the Holy Spirit, 'And the three are one;' and does any man believe that this unity founded upon the divine immutability, and cemmented by heavenly emblems, can be rent asunder in the church, or disjoined by the separation of contending parties?”

Henry Thomas Armfeild, 1883.

“The Lord saith, 'I and the Father are One;' and again of the Father and the Son and the Holy Ghost it is written, 'and these three are One.' And does any one believe that this unity, proceeding from the divine immutability, cohering by heavenly mysteries, can be rent in the Church, and separated by the divorce of contending wills? He who does not hold this unity does not hold the law of God, does not hold the faith of the Father and the Son, does not hold life and salvation."​
 
CYPRIAN

De Ecclesiae Catholicae Unitate

Chapter 6


"Dicit Dominus: 'Ego et Pater unum sum.' Et iterum de Patre et Filio et Spiritu Sancto scriptum est: 'Et hi tres unum sunt'. Et quisquam credit hanc unitatem de divina firmitate venientem, sacramentis coelestibus cohaerentem, scindi in Ecclesia posse et voluntatum collidentium divortio separari? Hanc unitatem qui non tenet, Dei legem non tenet, non tenet Patris et Filii fidem, vitam non tenet et salutem."

Translated by John Scott Porter 1848

“The Lord says, 'I and my Father are one;' and again it hath been written concerning the Father, and the Son, and the Holy Spirit, 'And the three are one;' and does any man believe that this unity founded upon the divine immutability, and cemmented by heavenly emblems, can be rent asunder in the church, or disjoined by the separation of contending parties?”

Henry Thomas Armfeild, 1883.

“The Lord saith, 'I and the Father are One;' and again of the Father and the Son and the Holy Ghost it is written, 'and these three are One.' And does any one believe that this unity, proceeding from the divine immutability, cohering by heavenly mysteries, can be rent in the Church, and separated by the divorce of contending wills? He who does not hold this unity does not hold the law of God, does not hold the faith of the Father and the Son, does not hold life and salvation."

Translated by Jared Critz, 2019.

Chapter 6.


“The Lord says: “I and the Father are One,” and again of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit it is written: “And the three are One.” And does anyone believe that this unity, coming from divine stability, held together in the celestial mysteries, can be torn in the Church and divided by the separation of conflicting wills? He who does not hold this unity does not hold the law of God, does not hold the faith of the Father and Son, does not hold life and salvation.”

Translated by Robert Ernest Wallis

Chapter 6.


"...of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit, 'And these three are one.' And does any one believe that this unity which thus comes from the divine strength and coheres in celestial sacraments, can be divided in the Church, and can be separated by the parting asunder of opposing wills? He who does not hold this unity does not hold God's law, does not hold the faith of the Father and the Son, does not hold life and salvation..."​
 
Are you Catholic?

Thanks

No.

The thread is in the form of a question.

What "sacraments" (or: "emblems" "mysteries") plural, is Cyprian referring back to (the Latin grammar and plain sense of the sentence points backwards to the immediate context) by the sentence context and phrase: "sacramentis coelestibus"?

Taking into account also, that "sacramentis" is modified by the adjective "coelestibus", i.e. "heavenly" as well.

And what meaning/meanings does "sacramentis" take in the various contexts (i.e. semantic domains) within Cyprian's (or his near contemporaries) works?

And to be clear this specifically relates to the interpolation of 1 John 5:7-8, and the grammar of De Unitate chapter 6 passage in Cyprian. So this is a grammar question, (technical side) looking for and at the specific antecedent and/or antecedents of the Latin text and phrase.

Your welcome to contribute.
 
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Arch Stanton

Well-known member
No.

The thread is in the form of a question.

What "sacraments" (or: "emblems" "mysteries") plural, is Cyprian referring back to (the Latin grammar and plain sense of the sentence points backwards to the immediate context) by the phrase: "sacramentis coelestibus"?

Taking into account also, that "sacramentis" is modified by the adjective "coelestibus", i.e. "heavenly" as well.

And what meaning/meanings does "sacramentis" take in the various contexts (i.e. semantic domains) in Cyprian's (or his near contemporaries) works?

Your welcome to contribute.
I would say that the heavenly 'mysteries' [sacraments] would be all of the 7 sacraments.... baptism, confession [Christ thru the priest], anointing of the sick [Christ thru the priest], confirmation [HS], etc.
 
I would say that the heavenly 'mysteries' [sacraments] would be all of the 7 sacraments.... baptism, confession [Christ thru the priest], anointing of the sick [Christ thru the priest], confirmation [HS], etc.

Interesting.

Thank you.

Would you say the "sacrament" of baptism is baptism "into the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit"?

Cyprian also speaks of the "sacrament of the Trinity" in De Oratione Dominica, chapter 34, where "sacramento" is translated as "a symbol of the Trinity" by Bindley.

Do you think these a related?
 

Arch Stanton

Well-known member
Would you say the "sacrament" of baptism is baptism "into the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit"?
yes
Cyprian also speaks of the "sacrament of the Trinity" in De Oratione Dominica, chapter 34, where "sacramento" is translated as "a symbol of the Trinity" by Bindley.

Do you think these a related?
It looks like a play on numbers... 3's with the children of Daniel --

'observed the third, sixth, and ninth hour, as it were, for a sacrament of the Trinity, which in the last times had to be manifested. For both the first hour in its progress to the third shows forth the consummated number of the Trinity, and also the fourth proceeding to the sixth declares another Trinity; and when from the seventh the ninth is completed, the perfect Trinity is numbered every three hours, which spaces of hours the worshippers of God in time past having spiritually decided on, made use of for determined and lawful times for prayer.'
 

Steven Avery

Well-known member
I would say that the heavenly 'mysteries' [sacraments] would be all of the 7 sacraments.... baptism, confession [Christ thru the priest], anointing of the sick [Christ thru the priest], confirmation [HS], etc.

However, that delineation comes about a millennium later, no earlier than the Council of Lyons in 1274, although what was written there is not clear. Definitely at Trent in the 1400s.
 

Arch Stanton

Well-known member
However, that delineation comes about a millennium later, no earlier than the Council of Lyons in 1274, although what was written there is not clear. Definitely at Trent in the 1400s.
baptism? anointing of the sick? confirmation? confessing sins? [all NT]
 
yes

It looks like a play on numbers... 3's with the children of Daniel --

'observed the third, sixth, and ninth hour, as it were, for a sacrament of the Trinity, which in the last times had to be manifested. For both the first hour in its progress to the third shows forth the consummated number of the Trinity, and also the fourth proceeding to the sixth declares another Trinity; and when from the seventh the ninth is completed, the perfect Trinity is numbered every three hours, which spaces of hours the worshippers of God in time past having spiritually decided on, made use of for determined and lawful times for prayer.'

Yes, Cyprian see's in the number "three" a "symbol of the Trinity".

"Symbol" being a translation of Latin "sacramento". This is the singular form of the same Latin word used by Cyprian at De Unitate chapter 6.

A little lower down in the same passage in De Oratione Dominica chapter 34, another plural form "sacramenta" is translated as "types".

CYPRIAN OF CARTHAGE

ORATIONE DOMINICA

Latin Text by Tauchnitz, 1839.

Chapter 34.


“In orationibus vero celebrandis invenimus observasse cum Daniele tres pueros in fide fortes et in captivitate viefcores horam tertiam, sextain, nonam, sacramento scilicet trinitatis, quae in novissimis temporibus manifestari habebat. Nam et prima hora in tertiam veniens consummatum numerum trinitatis ostendit, itemque ad sextam quarta procedens declarat alteram trinitatem, et quando a septima nona completur, per ternas horas trinitas perfecta numeratur. Quae horarum spatia iampridem spiritaliter determinantes adoratores Dei statutis et legitimis ad precem temporibus serviebant. Et manifestata postmodum res est, sacramenta olim fuisse, quod ante sic iusti precabantur. Nam super discipulos hora tertia descendit Spiritus sanctus, qui gratiam dominicae repromissionis implevit. Item Petrus hora sexta in tectum superius adscendens signo pariter et voce Dei monentis instructus est, ut omnes ad gratiam salutis admit teret, cum [Page 26] de emundandis gentilibus ante dubitaret. Et Dominus bora sexta crncifixus ad nonam peccata nostra sanguine suo abluit et, ut redimere et vivificare nos posset, tunc victoriam suam passione perfecit.”

CYPRIAN OF CARTHAGE

“On The Lord's Prayer”

By T. H. Bindley, 1914

Chapter 34.


“Now in the offering of prayer we find that the Three Children with Daniel, being strong in faith and victors even in captivity, observed the third, sixth, and ninth hours,[Daniel 6:10] in as it were a symbol of the Trinity which would be revealed in these last times. For the progress of the first hour to the third shows the perfected number of the Trinity; likewise from the fourth to the sixth declares another Trinity; and when the period from the seventh to the ninth is completed, the perfect Trinity is numbered through a triad of hours each. These spaces of hours were long ago fixed upon by the worshippers of God, who observed them as the appointed and lawful times for prayer. After-events have made it manifest that from of old these [Page 67] were types, inasmuch as righteous men formerly prayed thus. For at the third hour, the Holy Spirit descended upon the disciples and fulfilled the gracious promise of the Lord. Likewise at the sixth hour Peter, going up to the house-top, was instructed by the sign as well as by the voice of God bidding him to admit all to the grace of salvation, when previously he was doubtful whether Gentiles ought to be cleansed. And from the sixth to the ninth hour the Lord, being crucified, washed away our sins in His own Blood; and that He might redeem and quicken us, He then perfected His victory by His Passion.”
So, at a minimum, what we can take away from this text is that Cyprian interpreted the number "three" as a mystical symbol ("sacrament") of the Trinity of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit.

CYPRIAN

De Ecclesiae Catholicae Unitate

Latin Text by MPL.

Chapter 6.


"Dicit Dominus: 'Ego et Pater unum sum.' Et iterum de Patre et Filio et Spiritu Sancto scriptum est: 'Et hi tres unum sunt'. Et quisquam credit hanc unitatem de divina firmitate venientem, sacramentis coelestibus cohaerentem, scindi in Ecclesia posse et voluntatum collidentium divortio separari? Hanc unitatem qui non tenet, Dei legem non tenet, non tenet Patris et Filii fidem, vitam non tenet et salutem."

Translated by John Scott Porter 1848

Chapter 6.


“The Lord says, 'I and my Father are one;' and again it hath been written concerning the Father, and the Son, and the Holy Spirit, 'And the three are one;' and does any man believe that this unity founded upon the divine immutability, and cemmented by heavenly emblems, can be rent asunder in the church, or disjoined by the separation of contending parties?”

Henry Thomas Armfeild, 1883.

Chapter 6.


“The Lord saith, 'I and the Father are One;' and again of the Father and the Son and the Holy Ghost it is written, 'and these three are One.' And does any one believe that this unity, proceeding from the divine immutability, cohering by heavenly mysteries, can be rent in the Church, and separated by the divorce of contending wills? He who does not hold this unity does not hold the law of God, does not hold the faith of the Father and the Son, does not hold life and salvation."

Translated by Jared Critz, 2019.

Chapter 6.


“The Lord says: “I and the Father are One,” and again of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit it is written: “And the three are One.” And does anyone believe that this unity, coming from divine stability, held together in the celestial mysteries, can be torn in the Church and divided by the separation of conflicting wills? He who does not hold this unity does not hold the law of God, does not hold the faith of the Father and Son, does not hold life and salvation.”

Translated by Robert Ernest Wallis

Chapter 6.


"...of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit, 'And these three are one.' And does any one believe that this unity which thus comes from the divine strength and coheres in celestial sacraments, can be divided in the Church, and can be separated by the parting asunder of opposing wills? He who does not hold this unity does not hold God's law, does not hold the faith of the Father and the Son, does not hold life and salvation..."​

Translations we can take from the above of "sacramentum" (the main Lexical form) in various morphological forms and confined solely within the context of Cyprian's own works, so far, can be taken as:

1. "Sacrament" or "sacraments"
2. "Symbol" or "symbols"
3. "Emblem" or "emblems"
3. "Type" or "types"
4. "Mystery" or "mysteries"

I can add other translations, but I'm interested in what others can constructively contribute.
 
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The grammatical case and number for the Latin phrase "of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit" (Wallis' translation of 1886) is in the ablative case, singular number, preceded by the Latin preposition "de".

The grammatical case and number for the Latin phrase "which thus comes from the divine strength" (Wallis' translation of 1886) in the very next sentence in Cyprian's De Unitate chapter 6, is also in the ablative case, singular number, and likewise is preceded by the Latin preposition "de" (I'll post more on this de + ablative construction later!).

This is grammar concord in action.

The following sentence, without a shadow of a doubt points the Latin reader backwards to the very phrase: "of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit" (if the Latin reader was to ask who is this about?) as the grammatical antecedent to "which thus comes from the divine strength".

There's more too.
 
CYPRIAN

De Ecclesiae Catholicae Unitate

Latin Text by MPL.

Chapter 6.


"Dicit Dominus: 'Ego et Pater unum sum.' Et iterum de Patre et Filio et Spiritu Sancto scriptum est: 'Et hi tres unum sunt'. Et quisquam credit hanc unitatem de divina firmitate venientem, sacramentis coelestibus cohaerentem, scindi in Ecclesia posse et voluntatum collidentium divortio separari? Hanc unitatem qui non tenet, Dei legem non tenet, non tenet Patris et Filii fidem, vitam non tenet et salutem."

Translated by Robert Ernest Wallis, 1868.

Chapter 6.


"The Lord says, 'I and the Father are one;' and again it is written of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit, 'And these three are one.' And does any one believe that this unity which thus comes from the divine strength and coheres in celestial sacraments, can be divided in the Church, and can be separated by the parting asunder of opposing wills? He who does not hold this unity does not hold God's law, does not hold the faith of the Father and the Son, does not hold life and salvation..."​


The grammatical case and number for the Latin phrase, which is translated as "of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit" (Wallis,1868) is in the ablative case, singular number, preceded by the Latin preposition "de".

The grammatical case and number for the Latin phrase, which is translated as "which thus comes from the divine strength" (Wallis,1868) in the very next sentence in Cyprian's De Unitate chapter 6, is (uncoincidentally) also in the ablative case, singular number, and is likewise preceded by the Latin preposition "de" (I'll post more on this de + ablative construction later!).


Cap 3.PNG

This is grammar concord in action.

The immediate context, i.e. the immediately following sentence with "which thus comes from the divine strength", without a shadow of a doubt, points the Latin reader backwards to the very phrase: "of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit" (if the Latin reader was to ask who is this sentence about?) as the grammatical antecedent to "which thus comes from the divine strength".

At a minimum, this shows, grammatically, that the following sentence in Cyprian's "De Ecclesiae Catholicae Unitate" chapter 6 is not somehow irrelevant or disconnected from it's immediate context - that is - from the phrase which is hotly debated in the Comma Johanneum (Parenthetical Text) 1 John 5:7-8 controversy: "and again it is written of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit, 'And these three are one.'" (Wallis, 1868)

More to come on this contextual and grammatical connection.

NOTE: Apology to post readers for the small typo in the previous post which has now been corrected. It was not 1886, but 1868, which was the date for Wallis' translation. I posted from my phone without my research material at hand.
 
Sorry. Another correction.

It's: "de Divina firmitate" not just "de Divina" which is in the ablative case singular number .


Cap 3b.PNG

Referring back grammatically to "de Patre et Filio et Spiritu Sancto".
 
The point is that "about the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit" cannot be understood correctly in English or Latin when it's divorced from it's context!

Both the preceding context, and the immediately following context.

The next sentence (the context) does indeed have a direct bearing on whether Cyprian was referring to mystical sacred symbols that represent "the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit" or the Comma Johanneum.

Here's a hint.

CYPRIAN

De Ecclesiae Catholicae Unitate

Latin Text by MPL.

Chapter 6.


"Dicit Dominus: 'Ego et Pater unum sum.' Et iterum de Patre et Filio et Spiritu Sancto scriptum est: 'Et hi tres unum sunt'. Et quisquam credit hanc unitatem de divina firmitate venientem, sacramentis coelestibus cohaerentem, scindi in Ecclesia posse et voluntatum collidentium divortio separari? Hanc unitatem qui non tenet, Dei legem non tenet, non tenet Patris et Filii fidem, vitam non tenet et salutem."

Translated by John Scott Porter 1848

Chapter 6.


“The Lord says, 'I and my Father are one;' and again it hath been written concerning the Father, and the Son, and the Holy Spirit, 'And the three are one;' and does any man believe that this unity founded upon the divine immutability, and cemmented by heavenly emblems, can be rent asunder in the church, or disjoined by the separation of contending parties?”​


Looking at Porter's translation, for example, of sacramentis coelestibus as "heavenly emblems".

"Emblem" is defined as:

Noun
  1. an object or its representation, symbolizing a quality, state, class of persons, etc.; symbol: The olive branch is an emblem of peace.
  2. a sign, design, or figure that identifies or represents something: the emblem of a school.
  3. an allegorical picture, often inscribed with a motto supplemental to the visual image with which it forms a single unit of meaning.
  4. Obsolete. an inlaid or tessellated ornament. verb (used with object)
  5. to represent with an emblem.
https://www.dictionary.com/browse/emblem

Now, why would Cyprian speak of "heavenly emblems" or "heavenly symbols" in this context?

Where did/would this sudden mention of "emblems" or "symbols" come from, with a direct reference to "it hath been written concerning the Father, and the Son, and the Holy Spirit, 'And the three are one;'" as the immediate and preceding context?
 
Bob, thank you for your opinion.

This is fundamentally about issues that deal with the 1 John 5:7-8 Comma Johanneum (or Johannine Comma) and a specific contextual and grammatical analysis of the claimed ECF (i.e. Cyprian of Carthage) proof text for the Comma (Parenthetical Text) in De Ecclesiae Catholicae Unitate chapter 6.

So this is focused and specifically about the context and Latin grammar of Cyprian's De Ecclesiae Catholicae Unitate chapter 6.
 
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