What "sacraments" is Cyprian referring back to by (sacramentis coelestibus) "these heavenly sacraments" in De Unitate 6.5-6?

TwoNoteableCorruptions said:
What "sacraments" is Cyprian referring back to by (sacramentis coelestibus) "these heavenly sacraments" in De Unitate 6.5-6?

CYPRIAN

ON THE UNITY OF THE CHURCH.

Translated by Robert Ernest Wallis

Chapter 6.

"...of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit, 'And these three are one.' And does any one believe that this unity which thus comes from the divine strength and coheres in celestial sacraments, can be divided in the Church, and can be separated by the parting asunder of opposing wills? He who does not hold this unity does not hold God's law, does not hold the faith of the Father and the Son, does not hold life and salvation..."


​
Click to expand...
I would assume it is the breaking of the bread, and the drinking of the cup, as they are said by Cyprian to relate to the (sacrament of) unity.
 
TwoNoteableCorruptions said:
Hi Cjab.

Please explain what leads you to that conclusion?
Click to expand...

AMBROSE, ON THE MYSTERIES AND THE TREATISE ON THE SACRAMENTS uses the same term quite often when engaging with the "sacraments" of bread and the wine.


(Can't say I'm familiar with this though.)

E.g. "ON THE SACRAMENTS I2I
Psalm 1 and not understood ? See how it is suited to
the heavenly sacraments. The Lord is my shepherd;
and I shall not want. In a green pasture, there hath he
made me to lie down. He hath tended me by the water
o/ corn/art, he converteth my soul. He hath led me in the
paths o] righteousness /or his name's sake. Yea, though
i[ walk through the valley o/ the shadow o/ death, I will
/ear no evil, ]or thou art with me. Thy rod and thy staff,
they have com]orted me. 2 Rod is rule, staff is passion ;
, that is the eternal Divinity of Christ, but also his pas-
sion in the body. The one created, the other redeemed.
Thou hast prepared a table be/ore, me against them that
trouble me. Thou hast anointed my head with tnT, and
my inebriating cup how glorious it is. 3
x4. Therefore thou hast come to the altar, thou hast
received the grace of Christ, thou hast obtained the
heavenly sacraments."
 
Cyprian of Carthage

Epistle [69/75] to Magnus

Chapter 7

“…But if any one objects, by way of saying that Novatian holds the same law which the universal church holds, baptizes with the same symbol with which we baptize, knows the same God and Father, the same Christ the Son, the same Holy Spirit, and that for this reason he may claim the power of baptizing, namely, that he seems not to differ from us in the baptismal interrogatory; let any one that thinks that this may be objected, know first of all, that there is not one law of the creed…”

https://www.newadvent.org/fathers/050675.htm​
What's the baptismal "symbol" with which Cyprian baptized?

Did you know that Cyprian's baptism "in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit" involved symbols?
 
“6. Besides even the Lord's sacrifices themselves declare that Christian unanimity is linked together with itself by a firm and inseparable charity, For when the Lord calls bread, which is combined by the union of many grains, His body, He indicates our people whom He bore as being united; and when He calls the wine, which is pressed from many grapes and clusters and collected together, His blood, He also signifies our flock linked together by the mingling of a united multitude.”

There is similar in the Epistle to Caecilius.

There is a concern of anachronism.
Theories of sacraments developed centuries later may not apply well.
 
TwoNoteableCorruptions said:
Did you know that Cyprian's baptism "in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit" …
Click to expand...

The Anonymous Treatise on Rebaptism focus on baptism in the name of the Lord Jesus. (This is one of the reasons we can know that Cyprian was not the author.)

It is an interesting question as to whether that was acceptable to the “orthodox” of the third century.
 
Steven Avery said:
“6. Besides even the Lord's sacrifices themselves declare that Christian unanimity is linked together with itself by a firm and inseparable charity, For when the Lord calls bread, which is combined by the union of many grains, His body, He indicates our people whom He bore as being united; and when He calls the wine, which is pressed from many grapes and clusters and collected together, His blood, He also signifies our flock linked together by the mingling of a united multitude.”

There is similar in the Epistle to Caecilius.

There is a concern of anachronism.
Theories of sacraments developed centuries later may not apply well.
Click to expand...

There's a lot of symbolism going on here.
 
Steven Avery said:
The Anonymous Treatise on Rebaptism focus on baptism in the name of the Lord Jesus. (This is one of the reasons we can know that Cyprian was not the author.)
It is an interesting question as to whether that was acceptable to the “orthodox” of the third century.
Click to expand...

Here is a sample from the Anonymous Treatise on Rebaptism.

A Treatise on Re-Baptism by an Anonymous Writer.
————————————
Argument.—That They Who Have Once Been Washed in the Name of the Lord Jesus Christ, Ought Not to Be Re-Baptized.
https://www.ccel.org/ccel/schaff/anf05.vii.iv.ii.html#vii.iv.ii-p71.1
Click to expand...

5. ...Then answered Peter, Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, who have received the Holy Ghost as well as we? And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ.” ... And their hearts being purified, God bestowed upon them at the same time, in virtue of their faith, remission of sins; so that the subsequent baptism conferred upon them this benefit alone, that they received also the invocation of the name of Jesus Christ, that nothing might appear to be wanting to the integrity of their service and faith.
Click to expand...
 
Steven Avery said:
The Christian word symbols is used for sacramental meanings.
There was no word symbol;ism.
Click to expand...

You make no sense Mr Avery.

Steven Avery said:
The style of 20 questions is not helpful.
Click to expand...

I'm sorry you have an aversion to helpful and meaningful questions.

Cyprian of Carthage

Epistle [69/75] to Magnus

Chapter 7

“…But if any one objects, by way of saying that Novatian holds the same law which the universal church holds, baptizes with the same symbol with which we baptize, knows the same God and Father, the same Christ the Son, the same Holy Spirit, and that for this reason he may claim the power of baptizing, namely, that he seems not to differ from us in the baptismal interrogatory; let any one that thinks that this may be objected, know first of all, that there is not one law of the creed…”

https://www.newadvent.org/fathers/050675.htm​

What "symbol" did Cyprian baptize with?
 
CYPRIAN

De Ecclesiae Catholicae Unitate

Chapter 6

"Dicit Dominus: 'Ego et Pater unum sum.' Et iterum de Patre et Filio et Spiritu Sancto scriptum est: 'Et hi tres unum sunt'. Et quisquam credit hanc unitatem de divina firmitate venientem, sacramentis coelestibus cohaerentem, scindi in Ecclesia posse et voluntatum collidentium divortio separari? Hanc unitatem qui non tenet, Dei legem non tenet, non tenet Patris et Filii fidem, vitam non tenet et salutem."

​
Steven Avery said:
The Christian word symbols is used for sacramental meanings.​
Click to expand...


By your way of thinking that could mean Cyprian's "sacramentum coelestibus" could mean:

"by these heavenly symbols"​

Interesting.
 
"Symbol" being a translation, of course, in Bindley's translation of De Oratione Dominica chapter 34, of Latin "sacramento" (the singular form of the very same Latin word used by Cyprian at De Unitate chapter 6.5)

De Oratione Dominica

Latin Text by Tauchnitz, 1839.

Chapter 34.

"In orationibus vero celebrandis invenimus observasse cum Daniele tres pueros in fide fortes et in captivitate viefcores horam tertiam, sextain, nonam, sacramento scilicet trinitatis, quae in novissimis temporibus manifestari habebat. Nam et prima hora in tertiam veniens consummatum numerum trinitatis ostendit, itemque ad sextam quarta procedens declarat alteram trinitatem, et quando a septima nona completur, per ternas horas trinitas perfecta numeratur."

Cyprian of Carthage

“On The Lord's Prayer”

By T. H. Bindley, 1914

Chapter 34.

"Now in the offering of prayer we find that the Three Children with Daniel, being strong in faith and victors even in captivity, observed the third, sixth, and ninth hours,[Daniel 6:10] in as it were a symbol of the Trinity which would be revealed in these last times. For the progress of the first hour to the third shows the perfected number of the Trinity; likewise from the fourth to the sixth declares another Trinity; and when the period from the seventh to the ninth is completed, the perfect Trinity is numbered through a triad of hours each."​
 
Cyprian referred to it as sacramentis coelestibus "by these heavenly symbols".

Which raises the question why didn't Cyprian refer back to "this one-ness" (i.e. "and these three are one" just mentioned) as something like testimoniis coelestibus "by these heavenly witnesses" instead of sacramentis coelestibus?

If he had "Quoniam tres sunt, qui testimonium dant in cælo : Pater, Verbum, et Spiritus Sanctus : et hi tres unum sunt. Et tres sunt, qui testimonium dant in terra : spiritus, et aqua, et sanguis : et hi tres unum sunt" in his Bible?

Why sacramentis instead?
 
Steven Avery said:
Actually, I simply quoted you.
Click to expand...

That's funny. Because it's not in quoted text from me in the original post. You have quoted text under it and above it....

I certainly never said:

The Christian word symbols is used for sacramental meanings.
There was no word symbol;ism.
Click to expand...

I quoted Post 29 from you.

https://forums.carm.org/threads/wha...s-in-de-unitate-6-5-6.7551/page-2#post-806213

Hmmmm.

Sounds more like damage control after writing something you regret Steven.
 
Last edited:
Steven Avery said:
You simply are not making sense.

In my post 29, I quoted from your post 14.



Since you go around the horn over nothing, I will ignore your 20 question stuff in the future.
Click to expand...

Funny that.

Because the words I quoted:

The Christian word symbols is used for sacramental meanings.
There was no word symbol;ism.
Click to expand...

Are not in quoted text, or give any indication that they are from me, in your post (Post 29 above)

Post 29

https://forums.carm.org/threads/wha...s-in-de-unitate-6-5-6.7551/page-2#post-806213
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top