What would you do if God revealed His plan for your life?

shnarkle

Active member
While it may be true that goats, swine, and wolves can become lost, the Good Shepherd will not be returning any of them to the sheepfold. No amount of will or effort (Romans 9:16) can change wolves into sheep, or tares into wheat.

Paul asks a hypothetical question in Romans 9 that Christianity is hesitant to look at for any extended length of time. The issue is one of responsibility, and the justice of God. Are those who are fashioned as "vessels fitted for destruction" responsible for their own demise, or were they created that way? Paul poses the question of why would anyone who God damns be responsible for their behavior if God created them that way? The answer from mainstream Christianity seems to be because it's their free will choice to sin. Paul doesn't respond that way though. Instead he acknowledges that the potter has the power to make one lump of clay into a vessel fitted for destruction, and another into a vessel of mercy. He essentially says, "Shut up!" because it is a Given that God is just.

The hypothetical question posed is "What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction: " (vs. 22)

From an intellectual standpoint, this is a difficult issue to deal with. If one were to become acutely aware of this reality in their own life, it would be horrific, to say the least.

My question is what would you do if God, without repentance; revealed to you that you were one of these vessels fitted for destruction? Would you live your life any differently, or continue as if you were actually a vessel of mercy? Some examples of this happening in the bible are Jonah, and Jesus himself. The entire bible if full of draft dodgers who are not interested in God's plan for them.

I am not interested in discussing other scenarios, or any theology that assumes this couldn't or would never happen, or that God is somehow evil for doing something like this. Paul clearly points out that if this were the case, God is still just and righteous.

I'm just interested in finding out what anyone in general, and Christians in particular would do or how they would respond to this revelation from God.

Most Christians have no desire to address, much less answer this question. This is understandable, but it isn't an invitation to highjack the topic so I would really appreciate it if anyone who does decide to answer refrains from claiming this couldn't happen, or God would never do something like this, or bringing up any other topics in this thread.
 

Our Lord's God

Well-known member
While it may be true that goats, swine, and wolves can become lost, the Good Shepherd will not be returning any of them to the sheepfold. No amount of will or effort (Romans 9:16) can change wolves into sheep, or tares into wheat.

Paul asks a hypothetical question in Romans 9 that Christianity is hesitant to look at for any extended length of time. The issue is one of responsibility, and the justice of God. Are those who are fashioned as "vessels fitted for destruction" responsible for their own demise, or were they created that way? Paul poses the question of why would anyone who God damns be responsible for their behavior if God created them that way? The answer from mainstream Christianity seems to be because it's their free will choice to sin. Paul doesn't respond that way though. Instead he acknowledges that the potter has the power to make one lump of clay into a vessel fitted for destruction, and another into a vessel of mercy. He essentially says, "Shut up!" because it is a Given that God is just.

The hypothetical question posed is "What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction: " (vs. 22)

From an intellectual standpoint, this is a difficult issue to deal with. If one were to become acutely aware of this reality in their own life, it would be horrific, to say the least.

16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel, for it is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes, to the Jew first and also to the Greek. 17 For in it a righteousness of God is revealed from faith to faith; as it is written, “But the righteous shall live by faith.”
18 For the wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men who suppress the truth in unrighteousness

My question is what would you do if God, without repentance; revealed to you that you were one of these vessels fitted for destruction? Would you live your life any differently, or continue as if you were actually a vessel of mercy? Some examples of this happening in the bible are Jonah, and Jesus himself. The entire bible if full of draft dodgers who are not interested in God's plan for them.

I am not interested in discussing other scenarios, or any theology that assumes this couldn't or would never happen, or that God is somehow evil for doing something like this. Paul clearly points out that if this were the case, God is still just and righteous.

I'm just interested in finding out what anyone in general, and Christians in particular would do or how they would respond to this revelation from God.

13 “Enter through the narrow gate for the gate is wide and the way is broad that leads to destruction, and there are MANY who enter through it. 14 For the gate is small and the way is narrow that leads to life, and there are FEW who find it.

Here is a description of the MANY.

43 Why do you not understand what I am saying? It is because you cannot hear My word. 44 You are of your father the devil, and you want to do the desires of your father. He was a murderer from the beginning, and does not stand in the truth because there is no truth in him. Whenever he speaks a lie, he speaks from himself for he is a liar and the father of lies. But because I speak the truth, you do not believe Me. Which one of you convicts Me of sin? If I speak truth, why do you not believe Me? He who is of God hears the words of God; for this reason you do not hear them, because you are not of God.”

Because they loved the world more than God, most will not repent even though God calls all men everywhere to repent.

30 Therefore having overlooked the times of ignorance, God is now declaring to men that everyone everywhere must repent, 31 because He has fixed a day in which He will judge the world in righteousness through a man whom He has appointed, having demonstrated to all men by raising Him from the dead.” Acts 17:30-31

Most Christians have no desire to address, much less answer this question. This is understandable, but it isn't an invitation to highjack the topic so I would really appreciate it if anyone who does decide to answer refrains from claiming this couldn't happen, or God would never do something like this, or bringing up any other topics in this thread.
 

shnarkle

Active member
16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel, for it is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes, to the Jew first and also to the Greek. 17 For in it a righteousness of God is revealed from faith to faith; as it is written, “But the righteous shall live by faith.”
18 For the wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men who suppress the truth in unrighteousness



13 “Enter through the narrow gate for the gate is wide and the way is broad that leads to destruction, and there are MANY who enter through it. 14 For the gate is small and the way is narrow that leads to life, and there are FEW who find it.

Here is a description of the MANY.

43 Why do you not understand what I am saying? It is because you cannot hear My word. 44 You are of your father the devil, and you want to do the desires of your father. He was a murderer from the beginning, and does not stand in the truth because there is no truth in him. Whenever he speaks a lie, he speaks from himself for he is a liar and the father of lies. But because I speak the truth, you do not believe Me. Which one of you convicts Me of sin? If I speak truth, why do you not believe Me? He who is of God hears the words of God; for this reason you do not hear them, because you are not of God.”

Because they loved the world more than God, most will not repent even though God calls all men everywhere to repent.

30 Therefore having overlooked the times of ignorance, God is now declaring to men that everyone everywhere must repent, 31 because He has fixed a day in which He will judge the world in righteousness through a man whom He has appointed, having demonstrated to all men by raising Him from the dead.” Acts 17:30-31
Quite a lot to weed through, but alas nothing that pertains to the question asked in this thread. Let me be blunt. I'm not interested in long winded replies that ignore questions that I have asked. I will simply click the handy "Ignore" as well. Please feel free to answer the question posed in the OP, or ignore it altogether. Another post like the last one will be promptly "Ignore"d.
 

shnarkle

Active member
Bottom line is -- either you are like the Father of as Jesus was of the Father of or you are not.
The bottom line is -- you didn't answer the question. You ignored it. I will assume you follow Christ's dictum to do to others as you would have them do to you. I will kindly oblige what can best be described as your last best wish.
 

Gary Mac

Well-known member
The bottom line is -- you didn't answer the question. You ignored it. I will assume you follow Christ's dictum to do to others as you would have them do to you. I will kindly oblige what can best be described as your last best wish.
My wish is that you receive from God that what Jesus received from Him. That seems to be a very difficult thing for you to accept?
 

Stephen

Active member
The hypothetical question posed is "What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction: " (vs. 22)

There is a timeline in Paul's sequence of events. God is a potter molding a person, and endures with longsuffering. This person has refused to be molded into a vessel fit for good and chosen to be a vessel fit for destruction.

From an intellectual standpoint, this is a difficult issue to deal with. If one were to become acutely aware of this reality in their own life, it would be horrific, to say the least.

A person that God would make aware of this reality has spent a long time getting to this point. If God has gone through the time and trouble of making them aware, then God has been making that person aware all along and they have made an informed choice to be a vessel of destruction.

From an intellectual standpoint it is simple. At some point God breaks the pot that refuses to mold into anything useful.

My question is what would you do if God, without repentance; revealed to you that you were one of these vessels fitted for destruction? Would you live your life any differently, or continue as if you were actually a vessel of mercy? Some examples of this happening in the bible are Jonah, and Jesus himself. The entire bible if full of draft dodgers who are not interested in God's plan for them.

In the hypothetical case If I was a vessel fit for destruction, then I have already made my choice after much longsuffering by God. In that case I would likely do what those that have come before me have done: Continue to do whatever led me to be selected for destruction.

In the particular instance Paul is speaking of, many rose from the dead and they still continued down the path to destruction. They made an informed choice.
 

shnarkle

Active member
There is a timeline in Paul's sequence of events. God is a potter molding a person, and endures with longsuffering. This person has refused to be molded into a vessel fit for good and chosen to be a vessel fit for destruction.

Where are you reading about anyone refusing to be molded into a vessel fit for good and chosen to be a vessel for destruction? Paul doesn't answer the question posed that way at all. Instead he points out that it is God's choice. Moreover, we have Christ's words pointing out that there will be those who are under the impression that they are vessels of mercy because they cast out demons, and performed miracles in his name. They believed they were vessels of mercy yet they were actually vessels fitted for destruction. That's the question I'm asking. I'm glad you made this point because it helps me to rephrase the question to be more accurate. It is really aimed at those who believe that they're saved, but then discover that they're actually damned. See the difference?
A person that God would make aware of this reality has spent a long time getting to this point. If God has gone through the time and trouble of making them aware, then God has been making that person aware all along and they have made an informed choice to be a vessel of destruction.
We have numerous examples of God's revelation occurring without warning or any series of events leading up to that revelation. Regardless, I'm not asking about your choices leading up to your own damnation. My question is explicitly about God's revelation of his righteous decision to send you to hell.
From an intellectual standpoint it is simple. At some point God breaks the pot that refuses to mold into anything useful.
That's a simple perspective, but not the perspective presented in Paul's letter or my post. Paul simply tells them to shut up, not because they refused, but because it is God's choice to make vessels fitted for destruction.
In the hypothetical case If I was a vessel fit for destruction, then I have already made my choice after much longsuffering by God. In that case I would likely do what those that have come before me have done: Continue to do whatever led me to be selected for destruction.
Makes sense, especially if you know you're damned and don't care.
In the particular instance Paul is speaking of, many rose from the dead and they still continued down the path to destruction. They made an informed choice.
I'm not following where you get that idea from in these texts.
 

Stephen

Active member
Where are you reading about anyone refusing to be molded into a vessel fit for good and chosen to be a vessel for destruction? Paul doesn't answer the question posed that way at all. Instead he points out that it is God's choice.

Paul isn't writing in a vacuum. The potter and the clay allegory is a commonly held teaching among the audience. He's drawing from Jeremiah and Isaiah and even specifically quotes Isaiah to set up his question.

Moreover, we have Christ's words pointing out that there will be those who are under the impression that they are vessels of mercy because they cast out demons, and performed miracles in his name. They believed they were vessels of mercy yet they were actually vessels fitted for destruction. That's the question I'm asking. I'm glad you made this point because it helps me to rephrase the question to be more accurate. It is really aimed at those who believe that they're saved, but then discover that they're actually damned. See the difference?

The particular instance Paul is writing about is aimed at your rephrased question. Israel believed they had God's favor. They did not. God gave them many warnings and many signs to change their path. They did not listen. They saw what they wanted to see so they could continue to do what they wanted to do.

When Vespasian walked away from Judea with his army in AD68 it was a sign for Christians to get out of Jerusalem (Luke 20:21). In contrast the Jews took it as a sign that they won. In AD70 Titus was God's instrument to bring the full measure of the covenant curses upon the Jews in Judea.

We have numerous examples of God's revelation occurring without warning or any series of events leading up to that revelation. Regardless, I'm not asking about your choices leading up to your own damnation. My question is explicitly about God's revelation of his righteous decision to send you to hell.

If God took the time and trouble to specifically say to me that he was sending me to the grave without previous warnings, it was because I was blind to the warnings. Not because I didn't receive any.

The case you are wanting to discuss very likely doesn't exist.

That's a simple perspective, but not the perspective presented in Paul's letter or my post. Paul simply tells them to shut up, not because they refused, but because it is God's choice to make vessels fitted for destruction.

Paul's question comes from a context. Paul is drawing from Jeremiah 18 and 19. God will make you something useful if you are willing to be made into it, or into something to be destroyed if that is what you want (Jer 18:6-10).

Connecting the dots, the vessels fitted for destruction in the potter's house of Jeremiah 18 were tossed into the Potter's field in the Valley of the son of Hinnom. The very place that was purchased with the 30 pieces of silver. This place is known as Gehenna, sometimes translated "hell".


I'm not following where you get that idea from in these texts.

I've read the rest of chapter 9. I've also read the chapter's of the passages that Paul is quoting from.

In context, Paul is explaining that God has moved away from the Jews to the Gentiles (Romans 9, 10, 11). The question he raises as a hypothetical that you are asking about is an early part of a larger question. That being: What happens to the Jews now? The answer is that they are broken for a very long time, and then restored.
 

Gary Mac

Well-known member
While it may be true that goats, swine, and wolves can become lost, the Good Shepherd will not be returning any of them to the sheepfold. No amount of will or effort (Romans 9:16) can change wolves into sheep, or tares into wheat.

Paul asks a hypothetical question in Romans 9 that Christianity is hesitant to look at for any extended length of time. The issue is one of responsibility, and the justice of God. Are those who are fashioned as "vessels fitted for destruction" responsible for their own demise, or were they created that way? Paul poses the question of why would anyone who God damns be responsible for their behavior if God created them that way? The answer from mainstream Christianity seems to be because it's their free will choice to sin. Paul doesn't respond that way though. Instead he acknowledges that the potter has the power to make one lump of clay into a vessel fitted for destruction, and another into a vessel of mercy. He essentially says, "Shut up!" because it is a Given that God is just.

The hypothetical question posed is "What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction: " (vs. 22)

From an intellectual standpoint, this is a difficult issue to deal with. If one were to become acutely aware of this reality in their own life, it would be horrific, to say the least.

My question is what would you do if God, without repentance; revealed to you that you were one of these vessels fitted for destruction? Would you live your life any differently, or continue as if you were actually a vessel of mercy? Some examples of this happening in the bible are Jonah, and Jesus himself. The entire bible if full of draft dodgers who are not interested in God's plan for them.

I am not interested in discussing other scenarios, or any theology that assumes this couldn't or would never happen, or that God is somehow evil for doing something like this. Paul clearly points out that if this were the case, God is still just and righteous.

I'm just interested in finding out what anyone in general, and Christians in particular would do or how they would respond to this revelation from God.

Most Christians have no desire to address, much less answer this question. This is understandable, but it isn't an invitation to highjack the topic so I would really appreciate it if anyone who does decide to answer refrains from claiming this couldn't happen, or God would never do something like this, or bringing up any other topics in this thread.
One thing that Paul didnt consider in your post of him is God can turn the sinner into the saint and without sin. Paul had a difficult time with this.

The revelation from God Himself is He in you and you in Him as one, same mind, same Spirit same walk as He walks in His same light, perfect even as He is perfect. There is no other revelation to be had from God, either you are like Him or you are not.
 

shnarkle

Active member
Paul isn't writing in a vacuum. The potter and the clay allegory is a commonly held teaching among the audience. He's drawing from Jeremiah and Isaiah and even specifically quotes Isaiah to set up his question.

Granted, yet a potter decides what he is going to create, not the clay he's molding.
The particular instance Paul is writing about is aimed at your rephrased question. Israel believed they had God's favor. They did not. God gave them many warnings and many signs to change their path. They did not listen. They saw what they wanted to see so they could continue to do what they wanted to do.

I think you're on the right track, but you seem to be missing out on a few pertinent points such as the fact that Paul clearly says, "not all", and then points out why, i.e. " but the children of the promise are counted for the seed." Again, he's reinforcing the fact that it is by promise, not any superficial labels, genealogies, etc., but most especially one's own choice.
When Vespasian walked away from Judea with his army in AD68 it was a sign for Christians to get out of Jerusalem (Luke 20:21). In contrast the Jews took it as a sign that they won. In AD70 Titus was God's instrument to bring the full measure of the covenant curses upon the Jews in Judea.



If God took the time and trouble to specifically say to me that he was sending me to the grave without previous warnings, it was because I was blind to the warnings. Not because I didn't receive any.

The case you are wanting to discuss very likely doesn't exist.

It exists in Paul's letter to the Romans in chapter 9.
Paul's question comes from a context. Paul is drawing from Jeremiah 18 and 19. God will make you something useful if you are willing to be made into it, or into something to be destroyed if that is what you want (Jer 18:6-10).

Paul accepts the position that God does create vessels created to be destroyed. When asked why are they to blame, he doesn't then reply with anything that indicates it is their choice, but especially rejects their own free will as a factor. "not by will or effort" Romans 9:16 He doesn't waffle at all, but instead points out that you have no say in the matter at all. He says, "who are you to reply to God?"
Connecting the dots, the vessels fitted for destruction in the potter's house of Jeremiah 18 were tossed into the Potter's field in the Valley of the son of Hinnom. The very place that was purchased with the 30 pieces of silver. This place is known as Gehenna, sometimes translated "hell".

Beside the point.
I've read the rest of chapter 9. I've also read the chapter's of the passages that Paul is quoting from.

In context, Paul is explaining that God has moved away from the Jews to the Gentiles (Romans 9, 10, 11).

No. he hasn't. He specifically points out that their physical line of descent isn't the deciding factor. He explicitly says, "Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:" (vs. 6) Not all, means some are.
The question he raises as a hypothetical that you are asking about is an early part of a larger question.

But not the main point of my OP, and regardless, the point of this OP is not diminished by that fact.
That being: What happens to the Jews now? The answer is that they are broken for a very long time, and then restored.
So you're essentially saying that vessels fitted for destruction are saved, no?

Ultimately, you're not addressing my main question. This isn't surprising. Most people don't like the idea in the first place. No one wants to contemplate something as horrific as this.
 

Stephen

Active member
Granted, yet a potter decides what he is going to create, not the clay he's molding.

In Jeremiah, the clay chooses its fate.

Paul accepts the position that God does create vessels created to be destroyed. When asked why are they to blame, he doesn't then reply with anything that indicates it is their choice, but especially rejects their own free will as a factor. "not by will or effort" Romans 9:16 He doesn't waffle at all, but instead points out that you have no say in the matter at all. He says, "who are you to reply to God?"

The example proved in the next verse is Pharaoh, who through the longsuffering of God had many chances to not be a vessel for destruction. He chose many times to harden his heart before God hardened it for him and made him a vessel for destruction. The example provided by Paul as directly contradicts your understanding of the question.

No. he hasn't. He specifically points out that their physical line of descent isn't the deciding factor. He explicitly says, "Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:" (vs. 6) Not all, means some are.

The physical lines of descent made the decisions (v 30-33). The physical lines of descent weren't the basis for God's decision.

But not the main point of my OP, and regardless, the point of this OP is not diminished by that fact.

If the OP doesn't consider the context, of the passage he is using as his basis, then most certainly it is.

So you're essentially saying that vessels fitted for destruction are saved, no?

The particular vessel in question is. It has promises made to it based on genealogy. As for vessels in general. That is a different question.

Ultimately, you're not addressing my main question. This isn't surprising. Most people don't like the idea in the first place. No one wants to contemplate something as horrific as this.

Your main question is a contrivance fabricated on not understanding how the audience the letter was written to would understand the allegory.
 

e v e

Well-known member
While it may be true that goats, swine, and wolves can become lost, the Good Shepherd will not be returning any of them to the sheepfold. No amount of will or effort (Romans 9:16) can change wolves into sheep, or tares into wheat.

Paul asks a hypothetical question in Romans 9 that Christianity is hesitant to look at for any extended length of time. The issue is one of responsibility, and the justice of God. Are those who are fashioned as "vessels fitted for destruction" responsible for their own demise, or were they created that way? Paul poses the question of why would anyone who God damns be responsible for their behavior if God created them that way? The answer from mainstream Christianity seems to be because it's their free will choice to sin. Paul doesn't respond that way though. Instead he acknowledges that the potter has the power to make one lump of clay into a vessel fitted for destruction, and another into a vessel of mercy. He essentially says, "Shut up!" because it is a Given that God is just.

The hypothetical question posed is "What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction: " (vs. 22)

From an intellectual standpoint, this is a difficult issue to deal with. If one were to become acutely aware of this reality in their own life, it would be horrific, to say the least.

My question is what would you do if God, without repentance; revealed to you that you were one of these vessels fitted for destruction? Would you live your life any differently, or continue as if you were actually a vessel of mercy? Some examples of this happening in the bible are Jonah, and Jesus himself. The entire bible if full of draft dodgers who are not interested in God's plan for them.

I am not interested in discussing other scenarios, or any theology that assumes this couldn't or would never happen, or that God is somehow evil for doing something like this. Paul clearly points out that if this were the case, God is still just and righteous.

I'm just interested in finding out what anyone in general, and Christians in particular would do or how they would respond to this revelation from God.

Most Christians have no desire to address, much less answer this question. This is understandable, but it isn't an invitation to highjack the topic so I would really appreciate it if anyone who does decide to answer refrains from claiming this couldn't happen, or God would never do something like this, or bringing up any other topics in this thread.
i don’t read this in Paul. Are you using a specific translation?

I don’t agree with your interpretation.
 

shnarkle

Active member
In Jeremiah, the clay chooses its fate.
Paul's clay has no say in the matter. e.g. "who are you to reply to God"?
The example proved in the next verse is Pharaoh, who through the longsuffering of God had many chances to not be a vessel for destruction. He chose many times to harden his heart before God hardened it for him and made him a vessel for destruction. The example provided by Paul as directly contradicts your understanding of the question.

The text explicitly BEGINS with God telling Moses that God will harden Pharaoh's heart. Before Paul gets to Pharaoh, he points out: "For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to ELECTION might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth;"

Not according to anything they may do or decide, but of God who calls them to be vessels of mercy.
The physical lines of descent made the decisions (v 30-33).

There are no decisions being made except by God. That's what "election" means. It has nothing to do with any decisions they may have made, but explicitly "Because they sought it not by faith, but as it were by the works of the law. " Paul's doctrine of election doesn't allow for your "will or effort" to play a role at all. Furthermore, no one exercises faith except Christ. Paul clearly makes this point repeatedly. He will say it is "the faith OF Christ" i.e. it is Christ's faith operating in the vessel of mercy. Who can forget the fact that it is "by grace through faith, and that NOT OF YOURSELVES"?

Christ himself points out that "you did not choose me, but I chose you", and "no one can come to me unless the father draw him".
The physical lines of descent weren't the basis for God's decision.
I never said they were. I pointed out that your claim that physical Israel was abandoned is blatantly false. Paul himself even affirms that God has not abandoned them.
If the OP doesn't consider the context, of the passage he is using as his basis, then most certainly it is.
The OP does consider the context which is why the question was asked.
The particular vessel in question is. It has promises made to it based on genealogy.

False. The promises are based upon God having mercy on whoever he chooses to have mercy on.
As for vessels in general. That is a different question.



Your main question is a contrivance fabricated on not understanding how the audience the letter was written to would understand the allegory.
Fallacy of Begging the Question. I have refuted your claims. Paul's doctrine of election has nothing to do with what one chooses to do. Again, "NOT by works, lest anyone boast" Paul's gospel is overwhelmingly a gospel of God's grace which conforms vessels of mercy which he foreknew and foreordained to conform to the image of his son, and conformed everyone else to vessels fitted for destruction. A just God lovingly, and mercifully damns them to hell. Again, with Paul that is a Given. Paul doesn't need to point that out if he were presenting a doctrine of God's vessels making the decision for themselves. The question of why I am to blame if God created me this way makes no sense any other way. Again, Paul admits that they are created that way, and responds by saying, "Shut up, who are you (a lump of clay) to have any say over how God forms you?"
 

Yakuda

Active member
While it may be true that goats, swine, and wolves can become lost, the Good Shepherd will not be returning any of them to the sheepfold. No amount of will or effort (Romans 9:16) can change wolves into sheep, or tares into wheat.

Paul asks a hypothetical question in Romans 9 that Christianity is hesitant to look at for any extended length of time. The issue is one of responsibility, and the justice of God. Are those who are fashioned as "vessels fitted for destruction" responsible for their own demise, or were they created that way? Paul poses the question of why would anyone who God damns be responsible for their behavior if God created them that way? The answer from mainstream Christianity seems to be because it's their free will choice to sin. Paul doesn't respond that way though. Instead he acknowledges that the potter has the power to make one lump of clay into a vessel fitted for destruction, and another into a vessel of mercy. He essentially says, "Shut up!" because it is a Given that God is just.

The hypothetical question posed is "What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction: " (vs. 22)

From an intellectual standpoint, this is a difficult issue to deal with. If one were to become acutely aware of this reality in their own life, it would be horrific, to say the least.

My question is what would you do if God, without repentance; revealed to you that you were one of these vessels fitted for destruction? Would you live your life any differently, or continue as if you were actually a vessel of mercy? Some examples of this happening in the bible are Jonah, and Jesus himself. The entire bible if full of draft dodgers who are not interested in God's plan for them.

I am not interested in discussing other scenarios, or any theology that assumes this couldn't or would never happen, or that God is somehow evil for doing something like this. Paul clearly points out that if this were the case, God is still just and righteous.

I'm just interested in finding out what anyone in general, and Christians in particular would do or how they would respond to this revelation from God.

Most Christians have no desire to address, much less answer this question. This is understandable, but it isn't an invitation to highjack the topic so I would really appreciate it if anyone who does decide to answer refrains from claiming this couldn't happen, or God would never do something like this, or bringing up any other topics in this thread.
Love is the missing competent in your argument I think.
 
Top