What would you do if God revealed His plan for your life?

SteveB

Well-known member
While it may be true that goats, swine, and wolves can become lost, the Good Shepherd will not be returning any of them to the sheepfold. No amount of will or effort (Romans 9:16) can change wolves into sheep, or tares into wheat.

Paul asks a hypothetical question in Romans 9 that Christianity is hesitant to look at for any extended length of time. The issue is one of responsibility, and the justice of God. Are those who are fashioned as "vessels fitted for destruction" responsible for their own demise, or were they created that way? Paul poses the question of why would anyone who God damns be responsible for their behavior if God created them that way? The answer from mainstream Christianity seems to be because it's their free will choice to sin. Paul doesn't respond that way though. Instead he acknowledges that the potter has the power to make one lump of clay into a vessel fitted for destruction, and another into a vessel of mercy. He essentially says, "Shut up!" because it is a Given that God is just.

The hypothetical question posed is "What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction: " (vs. 22)

From an intellectual standpoint, this is a difficult issue to deal with. If one were to become acutely aware of this reality in their own life, it would be horrific, to say the least.

My question is what would you do if God, without repentance; revealed to you that you were one of these vessels fitted for destruction? Would you live your life any differently, or continue as if you were actually a vessel of mercy? Some examples of this happening in the bible are Jonah, and Jesus himself. The entire bible if full of draft dodgers who are not interested in God's plan for them.

I am not interested in discussing other scenarios, or any theology that assumes this couldn't or would never happen, or that God is somehow evil for doing something like this. Paul clearly points out that if this were the case, God is still just and righteous.

I'm just interested in finding out what anyone in general, and Christians in particular would do or how they would respond to this revelation from God.

Most Christians have no desire to address, much less answer this question. This is understandable, but it isn't an invitation to highjack the topic so I would really appreciate it if anyone who does decide to answer refrains from claiming this couldn't happen, or God would never do something like this, or bringing up any other topics in this thread.
Curious....
From what I read in 2 Peter 3, God has in fact revealed his will to each of us.

9 The Lord is not slack concerning His promise, as some count slackness, but is longsuffering toward us, not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance.​

He clearly states--- He is not willing that we should perish, but that we should come to repentance.

Furthermore, as we are saved by Grace, through faith, and not of works, but the works we should perform were prepared for us since the foundation of the world..... and Grace teaches us----

11 For the grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to all men, 12 teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly in the present age, 13 looking for the blessed hope and glorious appearing of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ, 14 who gave Himself for us, that He might redeem us from every lawless deed and purify for Himself His own special people, zealous for good works.​

how could we be lost if we place our trust in Jesus?

Is God not capable of handling our weaknesses, and follies, when we struggle to learn, and engage him?

Especially when we read in Proverbs 3

5 Trust in the LORD with all your heart,​
And lean not on your own understanding;​
6 In all your ways acknowledge Him,​
And He shall direct your paths.​
7 Do not be wise in your own eyes;​
Fear the LORD and depart from evil.​

Is God not capable of ensuring we make it home, if we keep trusting him, acknowledging him, and fearing him.
 

shnarkle

Well-known member
Curious....
From what I read in 2 Peter 3, God has in fact revealed his will to each of us.

9 The Lord is not slack concerning His promise, as some count slackness, but is longsuffering toward us, not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance.​

He clearly states--- He is not willing that we should perish, but that we should come to repentance.
True, yet who is he talking to? Isn't he talking to those who, " according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness."? Or are we to assume that these are the same referred to earlier as "reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men."? Aren't these two different groups?
Furthermore, as we are saved by Grace, through faith, and not of works, but the works we should perform were prepared for us since the foundation of the world.....

Quite true, yet this is still beside the point of the OP.
and Grace teaches us----

11 For the grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to all men, 12 teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly in the present age, 13 looking for the blessed hope and glorious appearing of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ, 14 who gave Himself for us, that He might redeem us from every lawless deed and purify for Himself His own special people, zealous for good works.​

how could we be lost if we place our trust in Jesus?

By the simple fact that the carnal man places his trust in Jesus as a means of salvation; it becomes a work that can never please God. Paul points this out in Romans 8.
Is God not capable of handling our weaknesses, and follies, when we struggle to learn, and engage him?

The question is not about God's abilities, but his sovereign will.
Especially when we read in Proverbs 3

5 Trust in the LORD with all your heart,​
And lean not on your own understanding;​
6 In all your ways acknowledge Him,​
And He shall direct your paths.​
7 Do not be wise in your own eyes;​
Fear the LORD and depart from evil.​

Is God not capable of ensuring we make it home, if we keep trusting him, acknowledging him, and fearing him.
God is more than capable of warranting the salvation of those he has predestined for salvation regardless of their trust, knowledge, or fear of him. One's will and effort do not trump the sovereign will of God. As Paul points out does one's lack of belief nullify God's promises? Not a chance. Now that we have that out of the way, are you prepared to address the question asked in the OP?
 

SteveB

Well-known member
True, yet who is he talking to? Isn't he talking to those who, " according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness."? Or are we to assume that these are the same referred to earlier as "reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men."? Aren't these two different groups?


Quite true, yet this is still beside the point of the OP.


By the simple fact that the carnal man places his trust in Jesus as a means of salvation; it becomes a work that can never please God. Paul points this out in Romans 8.


The question is not about God's abilities, but his sovereign will.

God is more than capable of warranting the salvation of those he has predestined for salvation regardless of their trust, knowledge, or fear of him. One's will and effort do not trump the sovereign will of God. As Paul points out does one's lack of belief nullify God's promises? Not a chance. Now that we have that out of the way, are you prepared to address the question asked in the OP?
Ok.

So, what are you claiming, that only people who become incapable of choosing will be saved?
 

shnarkle

Well-known member
Ok.

So, what are you claiming, that only people who become incapable of choosing will be saved?
No.

No one is capable of choosing. Christ and Paul both point out that no one chooses Christ, Christ chooses them.

I am claiming the EXACT same thing Paul is in his hypothetical question from Romans. I am simply asking you "What would you do if God, without repentance; revealed to you that you were one of these vessels fitted for destruction? Would you live your life any differently, or continue as if you were actually a vessel of mercy? " It's not a trick question. I'm not really interested in debating the question as much as finding out how people would react if they were faced with this hypothetical scenario.
 

SteveB

Well-known member
No.

No one is capable of choosing. Christ and Paul both point out that no one chooses Christ, Christ chooses them.

I am claiming the EXACT same thing Paul is in his hypothetical question from Romans. I am simply asking you "What would you do if God, without repentance; revealed to you that you were one of these vessels fitted for destruction? Would you live your life any differently, or continue as if you were actually a vessel of mercy? " It's not a trick question. I'm not really interested in debating the question as much as finding out how people would react if they were faced with this hypothetical scenario.
So, when Jesus said,

Whosoever would believe....

When Paul tells us in Romans 10,

Whosoever shall call on his name....

They were lying?

Why would they lie to us about this?

Even John, and the Holy Spirit in Revelation 22 tell us

Rev 22:17 KJV And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely.

So, now we have 4 people saying

Whosoever.....

Are you going to say that they're all lying?

Do yourself a favor and do a word study on the topic of whosoever.

Anyone who chooses to follow Jesus will be saved.

Even Jesus said,

If anyone WANTS to be my disciple, let them pick up their cross, deny themselves and follow him.
Mat 16:24 WEB Then Jesus said to his disciples, “If anyone desires to come after me, let him deny himself, take up his cross, and follow me.​


He further stated that we must strive to enter the narrow path, because many will desire to but miss it.

Luk 13:24 WEB “Strive to enter in by the narrow door, for many, I tell you, will seek to enter in and will not be able.​

Do the word study.
 

e v e

Super Member
No.

No one is capable of choosing. Christ and Paul both point out that no one chooses Christ, Christ chooses them.

I am claiming the EXACT same thing Paul is in his hypothetical question from Romans. I am simply asking you "What would you do if God, without repentance; revealed to you that you were one of these vessels fitted for destruction? Would you live your life any differently, or continue as if you were actually a vessel of mercy? " It's not a trick question. I'm not really interested in debating the question as much as finding out how people would react if they were faced with this hypothetical scenario.


"Being saved" is at the Change. His souls who come to Him and listen will be rescued from this world and return to Eden..
as Paul said, to be transformed to our imperishable body.

what was lost at the fall.
 

shnarkle

Well-known member
So, when Jesus said,

So you're ignoring my question. Thanks anyways, but as I've pointed out already, I'm not interested in irrelevant topics that have nothing to do with the main question of this original post. Go with God. Be blessed.
 

Gary Mac

Well-known member
"Being saved" is at the Change. His souls who come to Him and listen will be rescued from this world and return to Eden..
as Paul said, to be transformed to our imperishable body.

what was lost at the fall.
What was lost at the fall was self and was to gain from God to become like Him to know this difference. returning to Eden would be a set back from His kingdom that is within man His temple. .
 

SteveB

Well-known member
So you're ignoring my question. Thanks anyways, but as I've pointed out already, I'm not interested in irrelevant topics that have nothing to do with the main question of this original post. Go with God. Be blessed.
Except that it's not irrelevant.

It's dealing specifically with the issues that you have raised.

This is not something that you can parse out, and ignore the items that don't fit your biases.

Paul explicitly stated that we're to rightly divide the word of truth, so that we may be complete, and thoroughly equipped to every good work.

Denying the freedom to choose the gospel is not a good work.
 

e v e

Super Member
What was lost at the fall was self and was to gain from God to become like Him to know this difference. returning to Eden would be a set back from His kingdom that is within man His temple. .
at the fall, adam acquired the Self, by entering the satanic realm. He left God and joined the enemy of God.
 

Gary Mac

Well-known member
at the fall, adam acquired the Self, by entering the satanic realm. He left God and joined the enemy of God.
No' at the fall Adam fell from self and became like God to know this difference. He gained a knowledge of God he had not known from self knowledge. You can read it eve, Gen 3:22. you have it all backwards. You act as if becoming like God to know this difference as He demands of us if we are to be of Him is and evil thing.
 

rstrats

Member
shnarkle,
re: "The hypothetical question posed is 'What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction: ' (vs. 22) My question is what would you do if God, without repentance; revealed to you that you were one of these vessels fitted for destruction? Would you live your life any differently, or continue as if you were actually a vessel of mercy?"

If that revealing caused me to believe in His existence and that "fitted to destruction" meant that I was slated to be tortured 24/7 for eternity in the lake of fire unless I changed, and I was convinced that that would actually be my fate, I would do everything possible to find out what changes I needed to make and then try my darnedest to make them.
 

shnarkle

Well-known member
shnarkle,
re: "The hypothetical question posed is 'What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction: ' (vs. 22) My question is what would you do if God, without repentance; revealed to you that you were one of these vessels fitted for destruction? Would you live your life any differently, or continue as if you were actually a vessel of mercy?"

If that revealing caused me to believe in His existence and that "fitted to destruction" meant that I was slated to be tortured 24/7 for eternity in the lake of fire unless I changed, and I was convinced that that would actually be my fate, I would do everything possible to find out what changes I needed to make and then try my darnedest to make them.
Thanks for replying to the post, but you didn't actually answer the question I posed. God's revelation is "without repentance". There is nothing you can do to change your fate. That's the scenario I'm presenting. That's the scenario Paul is presenting as well which is why I asked it. It's a hypothetical question, but your answer does reveal something about what you believe which is that you believe you can do something to save yourself.

It's not a pleasant question to ponder so I understand why you may have changed it. At least you made an effort. I appreciate that.
 

rstrats

Member
Thanks for replying to the post, but you didn't actually answer the question I posed. God's revelation is "without repentance". There is nothing you can do to change your fate. That's the scenario I'm presenting. That's the scenario Paul is presenting as well which is why I asked it. It's a hypothetical question, but your answer does reveal something about what you believe which is that you believe you can do something to save yourself.
Obviously I didn't understand the intent of your post or to whom it is meant, i.e., those who are living as if they were actually a vessel of mercy. Since this doesn't apply to me I'll butt out of making further comments.
 

shnarkle

Well-known member
Obviously I didn't understand the intent of your post or to whom it is meant, i.e., those who are living as if they were actually a vessel of mercy. Since this doesn't apply to me I'll butt out of making further comments.
Now you seem to be getting it. Yes, those who believe they are vessels of mercy and have been living that way when God reveals to them that they're not vessels of mercy, but vessels fitted for destruction. Jesus says the same thing, e.g. "I never knew you". They obviously find this revelation quite surprising, no?

Part of the reason I ask this question is that it reveals some false assumptions that one doesn't want to discover on Judgment Day. Better to discover them now rather than later when it's too late. The question is applicable to anyone who is willing to answer it.

Evidently, you're not. Fair enough. I'm not one to pressure anyone to answer a question they don't feel comfortable answering, and this one is one that most people never give a second thought to. Again, I appreciate your first attempt.
 

rstrats

Member
The question is applicable to anyone who is willing to answer it. Evidently, you're not. Fair enough. I'm not one to pressure anyone to answer a question they don't feel comfortable answering..."
I know I said I wouldn't continue further but your comment to me "Evidently , you're not" requires a response. How can I answer a question that doesn't apply to me?
 
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