What would you do if God revealed His plan for your life?

[shnarkle]

I know I said I wouldn't continue further but your comment to me "Evidently , you're not" requires a response. How can I answer a question that doesn't apply to me?

The only way it wouldn't apply to you would be if you already knew you were damned. In other words, you would have come to this conclusion without any revelation from God to begin with. That's the only scenario that makes any sense. Was that what you meant when you said, "those who are living as if they were actually a vessel of mercy."

I can see how that would throw a wrench into my post. I hadn't actually thought anyone would ever come from the standpoint of being a vessel fitted for destruction to begin with. Then again, it sort of answers itself in that one wouldn't change anything if they already knew they were a vessel fitted for destruction. The revelation is anticlimactic to begin with. If that's what you meant, then I see what you mean. I also find it alarming that anyone would be so cavalier about it. Although I haven't given it that much thought until now. Perhaps if could be a perspective one could get used to after a while. I don't know. Perhaps I could handle it if I knew that there was nothing after death. if there is no conscious torment for eternity then I could see how that might lessen the blow.

 

[e v e]

Even if you followed it perfectly, you are still going straight to hell.

So why follow it at all if you're still foreordained to eternal damnation?

God doesn't talk or act that way... as described in your OP.

 

[Our Lord's God]

God has already revealed His plan for your life - to be conformed to the image of His son, picking up your cross and walking just as he walked. You are to die to your life and live the life of Christ, that is, Christ is to live through you doing as he pleases. Your Bible tells you this several times. Here's just one:

I have been crucified with Christ; and it is no longer I who live, but Christ lives in me; and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by faith of the Son of God, who loved me and gave Himself up for me.

 

[shnarkle]

18 For the wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men who suppress the truth in unrighteousness

This is the only verse that applies to my question. It doesn't answer my question other than to suggest that one may be aware of their own damnation. My question goes a bit further than that.

 

[shnarkle]

God has already revealed His plan for your life

The topic isn't about God's plan for my life. The topic is about a hypothetical situation which you are ignoring. I specifically pointed out that I'm not interested in talking about other issues which are unrelated to this topic.

 

[Our Lord's God]

The topic isn't about God's plan for my life. The topic is about a hypothetical situation which you are ignoring. I specifically pointed out that I'm not interested in talking about other issues which are unrelated to this topic.

This thread is called "What would you do if God revealed His plan for your life?"

 

[shnarkle]

This thread is called "What would you do if God revealed His plan for your life?"

The question is within the thread itself. It is a hypothetical question. Here's the actual question:

"My question is what would you do if God, without repentance; revealed to you that you were one of these vessels fitted for destruction? Would you live your life any differently, or continue as if you were actually a vessel of mercy? Some examples of this happening in the bible are Jonah, and Jesus himself. The entire bible if full of draft dodgers who are not interested in God's plan for them.

I am not interested in discussing other scenarios, or any theology that assumes this couldn't or would never happen, or that God is somehow evil for doing something like this. Paul clearly points out that if this were the case, God is still just and righteous.

I'm just interested in finding out what anyone in general, and Christians in particular would do or how they would respond to this revelation from God."

 

[Our Lord's God]

The question is within the thread itself. It is a hypothetical question. Here's the actual question:

"My question is what would you do if God, without repentance; revealed to you that you were one of these vessels fitted for destruction?

He already revealed that to everyone who now knows Him. Everyone was a child of wrath.

Would you live your life any differently, or continue as if you were actually a vessel of mercy? Some examples of this happening in the bible are Jonah, and Jesus himself. The entire bible if full of draft dodgers who are not interested in God's plan for them.

I would respond to His call to repentance in order to be a vessel fitted for glory.

That was easy.

I am not interested in discussing other scenarios, or any theology that assumes this couldn't or would never happen, or that God is somehow evil for doing something like this. Paul clearly points out that if this were the case, God is still just and righteous.

I'm just interested in finding out what anyone in general, and Christians in particular would do or how they would respond to this revelation from God."

 

[shnarkle]

He already revealed that to everyone who now knows Him. Everyone was a child of wrath.

Correction: "IS a child of wrath"

I would respond to His call to repentance

No. You wouldn't. Again, simply look at what the actual post is stating to see your error.

in order to be a vessel fitted for glory.

Vessels of wrath are not fitted for glory.

That was easy.

Answering questions that weren't asked can be quite easy. Answering the question that was actually posted is quite impossible for most people. Ironically, I've discovered that atheists can answer the question not only quite easily, but accurately and correctly as well.

With God All things are possible.

 

[Our Lord's God]

Correction: "IS a child of wrath"

The saved children of God are no longer children of wrath.

No. You wouldn't. Again, simply look at what the actual post is stating to see your error.

Yes I would. I know that because I, in fact, DID.

Vessels of wrath are not fitted for glory.

That's right.

All were children of wrath. Now some of those children of wrath are no longer children of wrath but are children of glory, children of God.

Answering questions that weren't asked can be quite easy. Answering the question that was actually posted is quite impossible for most people. Ironically, I've discovered that atheists can answer the question not only quite easily, but accurately and correctly as well.

With God All things are possible.

 

[Kade Rystalmane]

While it may be true that goats, swine, and wolves can become lost, the Good Shepherd will not be returning any of them to the sheepfold. No amount of will or effort (Romans 9:16) can change wolves into sheep, or tares into wheat.

Mark 10:27 - "And Jesus looking upon them saith, With men it is impossible, but not with God: for with God all things are possible."

Paul asks a hypothetical question in Romans 9 that Christianity is hesitant to look at for any extended length of time. The issue is one of responsibility, and the justice of God. Are those who are fashioned as "vessels fitted for destruction" responsible for their own demise, or were they created that way? Paul poses the question of why would anyone who God damns be responsible for their behavior if God created them that way? The answer from mainstream Christianity seems to be because it's their free will choice to sin. Paul doesn't respond that way though. Instead he acknowledges that the potter has the power to make one lump of clay into a vessel fitted for destruction, and another into a vessel of mercy. He essentially says, "Shut up!" because it is a Given that God is just.

The hypothetical question posed is "What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction: " (vs. 22)

From an intellectual standpoint, this is a difficult issue to deal with. If one were to become acutely aware of this reality in their own life, it would be horrific, to say the least.

My question is what would you do if God, without repentance; revealed to you that you were one of these vessels fitted for destruction? Would you live your life any differently, or continue as if you were actually a vessel of mercy? Some examples of this happening in the bible are Jonah, and Jesus himself. The entire bible if full of draft dodgers who are not interested in God's plan for them.

Granting for the moment that the premise of your question is true, would it matter if God revealed which vessel I was since I can only act according to what God has determined I would act like? If I can choose how I would act, doesn't that preclude the idea that I am one kind or the other without the ability to change or accept God changing me?

I am not interested in discussing other scenarios, or any theology that assumes this couldn't or would never happen, or that God is somehow evil for doing something like this. Paul clearly points out that if this were the case, God is still just and righteous.

I'm just interested in finding out what anyone in general, and Christians in particular would do or how they would respond to this revelation from God.

Most Christians have no desire to address, much less answer this question. This is understandable, but it isn't an invitation to highjack the topic so I would really appreciate it if anyone who does decide to answer refrains from claiming this couldn't happen, or God would never do something like this, or bringing up any other topics in this thread.

I don't think anyone can logically answer the question you are asking based on the paradigm from which it is asked. In your paradigm, it is as impossible to act any different as it is to change from one kind of vessel to another.

In Truth and Love.

 

[Gary Mac]

The topic isn't about God's plan for my life. The topic is about a hypothetical situation which you are ignoring. I specifically pointed out that I'm not interested in talking about other issues which are unrelated to this topic.

The topic is about a hypothetical situation which is not a truth at all but hypothetical, guess work.

 

[shnarkle]

The saved children of God are no longer children of wrath.

True, but certainly beside the point of this OP.

Yes I would. I know that because I, in fact, DID.

Again completely irrelevant to the OP.

That's right.

So again, for the third time; hypothetically speaking, IF this were revealed to you, what would you do differently, if anything? If you don't feel comfortable answering this OP's question, this isn't unusual. Most people can't begin to address it for obvious reasons. However, I'm not interested in your agenda to highjack this OP.

All were children of wrath. Now some of those children of wrath are no longer children of wrath but are children of glory, children of God.

Quite true, but again completely beside the point of this OP.

 

[shnarkle]

Mark 10:27 - "And Jesus looking upon them saith, With men it is impossible, but not with God: for with God all things are possible."

While all things may be possible, it doesn't then follow that all things are within God's sovereign will. Therefore only what God has ordained will actually happen, and it is clearly not within God's will that wolves become sheep, or that tares become wheat. Vessels of mercy are not vessels of wrath. They are two completely different animals.

Granting for the moment that the premise of your question is true, would it matter if God revealed which vessel I was since I can only act according to what God has determined I would act like?

That's an interesting question. What do you think? Would it matter to you? What would you do if God did reveal you to be a vessel fitted for destruction?

If I can choose how I would act, doesn't that preclude the idea that I am one kind or the other without the ability to change or accept God changing me?

I don't know. I'm not quite following the question. Why do you think this is necessarily the case?

I don't think anyone can logically answer the question you are asking based on the paradigm from which it is asked.

Why not? I've literally had at least a dozen or more people logically answer the question within this paradigm that Paul himself presents in his argument.

In your paradigm, it is as impossible to act any different as it is to change from one kind of vessel to another.

I would disagree for the salient reason that prior to this revelation, you believe you are a vessel of mercy, and therefore may be acting according to that belief. So, you volunteer your time to feed the hungry, clothe the naked, offer alms, etc. After this revelation, you could still do those same things, or not. The revelation hasn't removed your free will, has it? If so, how or why would that be the case?

One isn't changing from one kind of vessel to another. One is discovering that they are a vessel of wrath rather than a vessel of mercy. Their perceptions have changed, not who they are. Hypnotists do something similar by suggesting that members of their audience are dogs, or from another planet, etc. They quite readily act very differently.

In Truth and Love.

 

[Kade Rystalmane]

While all things may be possible, it doesn't then follow that all things are within God's sovereign will. Therefore only what God has ordained will actually happen, and it is clearly not within God's will that wolves become sheep, or that tares become wheat. Vessels of mercy are not vessels of wrath. They are two completely different animals.

We have two completely different understandings of what the word "sovereign" means. However, I was just meaning to answer your question, not necessarily debate you on anything so I will leave it at that.

That's an interesting question. What do you think? Would it matter to you? What would you do if God did reveal you to be a vessel fitted for destruction?

I would think whatever God willed me to think. It would matter if God willed me to think it mattered. If God fitted me for destruction, I would do whatever God willed me to do. That's how it works, right?

I don't know. I'm not quite following the question. Why do you think this is necessarily the case?

If I am free to choose how to act in response to God choosing me to be a vessel of destruction, wouldn't that mean I have the ability to choose and thus can choose to respond to God in such a way that He changes me into a vessel of righteousness?

Why not? I've literally had at least a dozen or more people logically answer the question within this paradigm that Paul himself presents in his argument.

They were only giving the answer God willed them to give...if what you believe is true. That's the only answer anyone can logically give. We aren't free, under your paradigm, to respond in any other way, or in a way we so choose if what you are saying is true.

I would disagree for the salient reason that prior to this revelation, you believe you are a vessel of mercy, and therefore may be acting according to that belief. So, you volunteer your time to feed the hungry, clothe the naked, offer alms, etc. After this revelation, you could still do those same things, or not. The revelation hasn't removed your free will, has it? If so, how or why would that be the case?

I only believe that because decreed that I believe that and decreed that I would act accordingly. After God revealed to me that I was a vessel of destruction, I still can only do what God decreed me to do.

IF, however, I have actual free will, then the idea that I am chosen for destruction or mercy isn't a valid concept unless God is unjust. If it's actual free will, then I can choose to respond to God's gospel call and if He is just, He will change me into a vessel of mercy. If He doesn't, then He is unjust by definition.

One isn't changing from one kind of vessel to another. One is discovering that they are a vessel of wrath rather than a vessel of mercy. Their perceptions have changed, not who they are. Hypnotists do something similar by suggesting that members of their audience are dogs, or from another planet, etc. They quite readily act very differently.

If God has changed my perception of what I am according to His decree then I will only change how I think and act according to how He changes His decree about how I will think and act along with that change of perception. If He reveals to me that I am a vessel of destruction but does not decree that I think and act any differently, then I will continue to think and act the same.

My wife is a hypnotherapist.

 

[shnarkle]

We have two completely different understandings of what the word "sovereign" means.

And? Go on. This may be a valid point, but we'll never know until you clearly point out how you came to this conclusion, or how it is relevant to the discussion.

However, I was just meaning to answer your question,

Which you still haven't gotten around to yet.

not necessarily debate you on anything so I will leave it at that.

I would settle for simply answering the question posed in the OP.

I would think whatever God willed me to think.

In this case, it is God's revelation that one is a vessel fitted for destruction, and presumably this would come as a shock to those who are thinking about answering this question.

It would matter if God willed me to think it mattered. If God fitted me for destruction, I would do whatever God willed me to do. That's how it works, right?

Perhaps, but the main point here is what would you do with this information?

If I am free to choose how to act in response to God choosing me to be a vessel of destruction, wouldn't that mean I have the ability to choose

No. This is a tautology. You are saying that if you are free to choose, then you are free to choose...etc.

and thus can choose to respond to God in such a way that He changes me into a vessel of righteousness?

This makes your will and effort the deciding factor in your own salvation. This is anathema to Paul's argument. God does not choose anyone based upon their performance or abilities. Salvation is not by works.

They were only giving the answer God willed them to give...if what you believe is true.

This is Paul's argument which he builds up to chapter 9.

That's the only answer anyone can logically give. We aren't free, under your paradigm, to respond in any other way, or in a way we so choose if what you are saying is true.

Paul's argument is airtight, yet this doesn't negate one's ability to answer this simple question.

I only believe that because decreed that I believe that and decreed that I would act accordingly. After God revealed to me that I was a vessel of destruction, I still can only do what God decreed me to do.

And regardless of what you do, under this situation; the result is foreordained already. Again, this is beside the point. The point here is: What would you do???? Would you live your life any differently, or continue to live it exactly the same? This isn't a complicated question.

IF, however, I have actual free will, then the idea that I am chosen for destruction or mercy isn't a valid concept unless God is unjust.

Why? This isn't how Paul presents his argument. In fact, he begins with God's righteousness as a Given. Reread the chapters leading up to chapter 9, and you should notice that the carnal man can't please God. There is nothing anyone can do to gain salvation. The carnal man cannot repent, or make a decision to make Christ his lord and savior, and wouldn't even if he could. The clay has no say in the matter. The potter determines what he will make.

If it's actual free will, then I can choose to respond to God's gospel call and if He is just, He will change me into a vessel of mercy. If He doesn't, then He is unjust by definition.

This isn't an argument. The carnal mind cannot choose to respond to the gospel EVER because the carnal mind is spiritually DEAD. Only those who are given the ears to hear can hear the gospel.

Again, Paul is clear when he says, "NOT by will or effort" Romans 9:16 Free will is not what decides your destiny. Paul doesn't care if one has free will or not. It's not relevant to his argument. He simply dismisses it altogether because it doesn't matter. No one can will themselves to love God, or follow his commandments in their heart. Only God can do that. Only God can create a vessel of mercy, or a vessel fitted for destruction.

If God has changed my perception of what I am according to His decree then I will only change how I think and act according to how He changes His decree about how I will think and act along with that change of perception.

Another tautology.

If He reveals to me that I am a vessel of destruction but does not decree that I think and act any differently, then I will continue to think and act the same.

And if he decrees that you act differently then you will act differently. So what? That's not the point of the OP. The question remains unanswered.

Perhaps if I put it another way. Knowing that you're damned without repentance, is there still any point in continuing to live as if you had a chance at salvation? If so, why? If not, why not?

My wife is a hypnotherapist.

 

[Kade Rystalmane]

Perhaps if I put it another way. Knowing that you're damned without repentance, is there still any point in continuing to live as if you had a chance at salvation? If so, why? If not, why not?

I think I've made an erroneous assumption here, and if I have, forgive me. Do you, personally, hold to the Calvinist belief of sovereign determinism? If not (and I certainly don't), then I understand where your question is coming from, but don't think you'll get a meaningful response from those who do hold to it. If you do hold to Calvinism, then no one can answer your question in any meaningful fashion and your question contradicts the Calvinistic paradigm.

 

[shnarkle]

I think I've made an erroneous assumption here, and if I have, forgive me.

You've made a number of errors. The most notable one of assuming that this OP is asking for anything other than an answer to the question posed.

Do you, personally,

This isn't about me personally.

hold to the Calvinist belief of sovereign determinism?

This OP doesn't prevent anyone from believing whatever they please. One's beliefs do not prevent anyone from answering this simple question.

If not (and I certainly don't), then I understand where your question is coming from, but don't think you'll get a meaningful response from those who do hold to it.

Again, this is neither here nor there.

If you do hold to Calvinism, then no one can answer your question in any meaningful fashion

There is nothing preventing a Calvinist from answering the question anymore than anyone else.

and your question contradicts the Calvinistic paradigm.

Obviously, you have no intention of answering the question. Thanks anyways, but I'm not interested in going on any more wild goose chases.

 

[Rockson]

So reading the title for the thread I thought maybe interesting. Then I found it's really a Calvinistic approach to condition people to say If your Calvinistic way of thinking was true and you found out you were a vessel of destruction at no choice of your own......

Well your question of IF doesn't make sense because it's not true anyway. At least in my opinion. I think therefore it takes people down a road of needlessly saying not so nice things about the Creator over a hypothetical that's unjustified.

Or to put it this way. Why should people seek to answer a question like what would you do if you discovered your spouse was unfaithful? Why is it that I should even allow my imagination to go down that road? Love believes the best of another and won't give it a second thought. Allowing the mind to question your spouse or even God for no fair reason isn't honoring either of them.

 

[Rockson]

One's beliefs do not prevent anyone from answering this simple question.

It does if one of your beliefs is it's not honoring the one you love......again if you asked me what would I do if my spouse was unfaithful I'd tell you it's in poor taste for you to seek to direct my mind that way and give such meditation.