What would you do if God revealed His plan for your life?

shnarkle

Well-known member
So reading the title for the thread I thought maybe interesting. Then I found it's really a Calvinistic approach to condition people
False. I'm not engaging in some conditioning program at all. I'm simply using Paul's own hypothetical question in Romans 9 to springboard a logical question to anyone who cares to answer it. Evidently, you would rather pick apart the OP than actually answer it. Again, this isn't surprising at all.
to say If your Calvinistic way of thinking was true and you found out you were a vessel of destruction at no choice of your own......
As Paul would point out, the potter is the one with the power to determine what to do with the clay.
Well your question of IF doesn't make sense

It makes perfect sense. It's Paul's IF, and his argument is flawless.
because it's not true anyway.
Fallacy of Begging the Question.
At least in my opinion.
Bingo.
I think therefore it takes people down a road of needlessly saying not so nice things about the Creator over a hypothetical that's unjustified.
Strawman argument. Again, this is NOT Paul's argument. Paul's argument assumes God's righteousness and the fact that he is justified in determining the purpose and eternal destiny of each lump of clay he creates.
Or to put it this way. Why should people seek to answer a question like what would you do if you discovered your spouse was unfaithful? Why is it that I should even allow my imagination to go down that road?

As I have pointed out repeatedly, it isn't a pleasant idea to entertain in the first place. Hence my request that people simply answer the question rather than pretending to answer the question, or thinking it appropriate to go on some wild goose chase.
Love believes the best of another and won't give it a second thought.
So that excludes your belief that I am in any way suggesting anything less than the best from God or His creation.
Allowing the mind to question your spouse or even God for no fair reason isn't honoring either of them.
Again, this is nothing less than a blatant Strawman argument. There is nothing in this OP that suggests you need to question God's judgements. In fact, I am presenting a hypothetical situation where God is justified in his condemnation. The fact is that this is also right in line with Paul's argument which points out that the whole world is lost, and deserving of damnation. It is only through God's grace, which has nothing to do with anything you may have ever done, or will ever do. You can't bribe God with good works to save you.

The OP is exclusively dealing with Paul's argument in his letter to the Romans which means you can banish any and all Calvinistic ideas from your mind.

Given these facts, you should have no problem answering the question, especially since I am not presenting anything of a Calvinistic nature to begin with.
 

shnarkle

Well-known member
It does if one of your beliefs is it's not honoring the one you love......again if you asked me what would I do if my spouse was unfaithful I'd tell you it's in poor taste for you to seek to direct my mind that way and give such meditation.
Well, I've got some really bad news for you. There is quite a bit of adultery and fornication going on in your bible. Do you also feel that God's word is in bad taste for broaching these subjects?

Jesus doesn't hide from unpleasant subjects either. He walks right up to adulterers, and engages them in conversation on the very subject of their adultery. Bad taste? I don't think so. Creeping away, hiding, or trying to sugar coat the realities of a fallen world is not just in bad taste, it's immoral.
 

Rockson

Active member
Well, I've got some really bad news for you. There is quite a bit of adultery and fornication going on in your bible.
God didn't do any of those things and neither has my wife. It's like you're wanting to create hypotheticals what if either one of the two of them did something wrong. I say we don't even have to entertain the notion.



Do you also feel that God's word is in bad taste for broaching these subjects?
Again they're NOTHING to do with what God has done. In fact they're reported as warnings to keep you away from them.
 

Rockson

Active member
False. I'm not engaging in some conditioning program at all. I'm simply using Paul's own hypothetical question in Romans 9 to springboard a logical question to anyone who cares to answer it. Evidently, you would rather pick apart the OP than actually answer it.

I think I did actually answer your question. I told you God wouldn't do something like that anyway so your question is invalid.
Again, this isn't surprising at all.

As Paul would point out, the potter is the one with the power to determine what to do with the clay.
And Jerimiah pointed out in 18:1-11 that the clay is given the choice. And the Jerimiah passage is the MOTHER text on this theme of the Potter not Romans 9!

The word which came to Jeremiah from the LORD, saying, Arise, and go down to the potter's house, and there I will cause thee to hear my words. Then I went down to the potter's house, and, behold, he wrought a work on the wheels. And the vessel that he made of clay was marred in the hand of the potter: so he made it again another vessel, as seemed good to the potter to make it. Then the word of the LORD came to me, saying, O house of Israel, cannot I do with you as this potter? saith the LORD. Behold, as the clay is in the potter's hand, so are ye in mine hand, O house of Israel. At what instant I shall speak concerning a nation, and concerning a kingdom, to pluck up, and to pull down, and to destroy it; If that nation, against whom I have pronounced, turn from their evil, I will repent of the evil that I thought to do unto them. And at what instant I shall speak concerning a nation, and concerning a kingdom, to build and to plant it; If it do evil in my sight, that it obey not my voice, then I will repent of the good, wherewith I said I would benefit them. Now therefore go to, speak to the men of Judah, and to the inhabitants of Jerusalem, saying, Thus saith the LORD; Behold, I frame evil against you, and devise a device against you: return ye now every one from his evil way, and make your ways and your doings good. Jer 18: 1,11

The clay had a choice. You're wanting to make it seem like it didn't.
 

shnarkle

Well-known member
God didn't do any of those things and neither has my wife.
More straw. This really isn't about God or your wife. It's simply asking what would you do if it was revealed to you by God that YOU were a vessel fitted for destruction.
It's like you're wanting to create hypotheticals
Not at all. In fact, I'm simply repeating Paul's hypothetical, which is:

"What IF God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:"

That's the only hypothetical case I'm referring to.

what if either one of the two of them did something wrong. I say we don't even have to entertain the notion.
I haven't forgotten what your position is, nor the fact that it has nothing to do with this OP.

Again, "For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.

14How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?"

Paul points out that there were plenty of false gospels going out which he cursed. That's NOT hypothetical at all. That's the reality, and therefore, those who cannot hear, cannot believe in the first place.
Again they're NOTHING to do with what God has done.
Again, this is about what YOU would do, not anyone else.
In fact they're reported as warnings to keep you away from them.
And warnings are useless to those who rely upon their own will or effort Romans 9:16. God can stretch out his loving arms for generations and be ignored, yet be discovered by those who never bothered to look at all. Romans 10:20,21

So, some might say, what difference does it make? Plenty if one understands Paul's argument which assumed the righteousness of God as a Given (Romans 9:14). This OP does as well so if it is at all possible, please try to entertain what is actually being presented rather than these pointless claims to the contrary.
 

shnarkle

Well-known member
I think I did actually answer your question.

Which was: " what would YOU do if God, without repentance; revealed to YOU that YOU were one of these vessels fitted for destruction?
I told you God wouldn't do...
See the problem yet? This doesn't begin to answer the question. In fact, this is blatantly ignoring the question altogether, and highjacking the OP. Now that's what I call bad taste.
something like that anyway so your question is invalid.

Yet Paul points out that it doesn't matter if he did do something like that. Here it is again: "What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:"

Go ahead and invalidate Paul's argument. I'm sure there are a lot of people who would like to see you try.
And Jerimiah pointed out in 18:1-11 that the clay is given the choice. And the Jerimiah passage is the MOTHER text on this theme of the Potter not Romans 9!
Regardless, the fact remains that the OP is drawing on what Paul actually states in HIS letter. Here's what Paul states:

"19Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?"

This alone refutes your claim as Paul is presenting a certain response which is clearly NOT one in which God would repent of the good he would do were Israel to repent. He further goes on to confirm this fact by telling them to shut up for being so insolent.

"20Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?"

His next question refutes your claim by pointing out that the potter certainly DOES have the power to make vessels of destruction.

21Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?

It's a rhetorical question. God certainly does have the power.
If that nation, against whom I have pronounced,

IF??? A blatant hypothetical which you have already stated you CAN'T begin to address, yet here you are addressing it as if it's the best hypothetical in the world. Double standard, much?
The clay had a choice. You're wanting to make it seem like it didn't.
The clay fitted for destruction cannot repent. Paul quite clearly points out that nothing the carnal man does will EVER please God.

"7Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.8So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God." Romans 8:7,8

Sorry to disappoint, but Paul isn't making a hypothetical claim here, and he uses this point to build his argument which leads inevitably to his claims in chapter 9; most notably that a just and righteous God is most definitely just in damning those vessels fitted for destruction. The only question which remains, and is as yet still unanswered is; what would you do IF you were one of those vessels?

Let me add that this is an incomprehensibly important question to address now rather than on Judgment Day. That wide highway to hell is packed full of people who just just plainly couldn't begin to deal with the possibility that they might not actually be saved at all.

I'm not in any way suggesting that you are damned. I'm simply suggesting Paul's hypothetical argument is pure genius, and we can get a much better glimpse of just what he's saying by answering the question posed in this OP which again, is right in line with Paul's argument, and his hypothetical question.

Faith is all one needs to answer the question. Anything less is sin. Romans 14:23
 

Gary Mac

Well-known member
My question is what would you do if God, without repentance; revealed to you that you were one of these vessels fitted for destruction? Would you live your life any differently, or continue as if you were actually a vessel of mercy? Some examples of this happening in the bible are Jonah, and Jesus himself. The entire bible if full of draft dodgers who are not interested in God's plan for them.
Interested in Gods plan? -- Without repentance God can do noting in you at all. Problem in Christendom is they are not thorough in repentance to become like Him and in His same image, perfect even as your Father in heaven is perfect, walk as He walk in His same light, have the mind of Christ, He in you and you in Him as one as Jesus was one in Him, John 17.

Repentance is from self and become as He is. Most do not even know what Gods SPirit is. Do you?
 

Rockson

Active member
Which was: " what would YOU do if God, without repentance; revealed to YOU that YOU were one of these vessels fitted for destruction?
Sorry but life doesn't work that way of answering and framing question to get answers on just how you demand them . They tried that with Jesus one time.....is it right to pay taxes to Ceaser or not.....they wanted a YES or NO, not him bringing up the image on a coin. So A or B Jesus. He gave them neither but he did answer their question whether they wanted to acknowledge it or not. I answered your question to. I told you God wouldn't ever do what you said anyway. (that is on this particular matter)

Yet Paul points out that it doesn't matter if he did do something like that. Here it is again: "What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:"

Go ahead and invalidate Paul's argument. I'm sure there are a lot of people who would like to see you try.
I think I can do so easily but it's not Paul's argument I need to challenge but your interpretation of what Paul meant.

"20Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?"

His next question refutes your claim by pointing out that the potter certainly DOES have the power to make vessels of destruction.
Does not. You're getting the cart before the horse. If a person by an act of their will or a nation chooses rebellion he has a right to form it into a vessel of destruction and that's even what Jerimiah said.
 

shnarkle

Well-known member
Sorry but life doesn't work that way
And yet Paul's argument works exactly that way. Again, Paul simply assumes it as a Given, and then proceeds to point out that one's "will and effort" are of no use whatsoever. Romans 9:16. Q.E.D.
is it right to pay taxes to Ceaser or not.....they wanted a YES or NO, not him bringing up the image on a coin.

Evidently, you didn't understand what Jesus was saying. The answer is clear. Give Caesar ALL of his money! Note that Jesus has to ask them to hand him a coin. Why? Because he has no money! Didn't you catch that? Elsewhere in Luke's gospel, he quite clearly points out that unless you get rid of all that worthless money from your god Mammon, "you cannot be one of my disciples" It really doesn't get much clearer than that. Lest anyone claim that he was using hyperbole, Luke follows up by showing us that the church took his words literally, e.g. Acts 2:44
he did answer their question whether they wanted to acknowledge it or not.

Yep, he said to give to Caesar what is rightfully his, and that would be ALL of Caesar's money. Ironically, his answer was treasonous, and could have been used against him.
I answered your question to.

No. You didn't. Again, the question is: What would YOU do if God revealed to you that you were a vessel fitted for destruction? Again, until one is called, chosen, and given the gift of repentance, they are automatically damned. No one is saved in their mother's womb. If that were the case then there would be no need for anyone to repent due to the fact that they're already saved, right?

Was there no point in your life when you made some profession of faith to document that you were saved? Were you ever baptized? The only argument you can have is to claim that you were never damned, and have always been in a state of undefiled salvation.
I told you God wouldn't ever do what you said anyway.
I haven't forgotten what you've posted. Repeating yourself doesn't advance the discussion in the slightest.
I think I can do so easily
I think you're in denial. If it's so easy, I dare you to try and answer the question posted in the OP.
but it's not Paul's argument I need to challenge
It's the exact same argument Paul is presenting.
but your interpretation of what Paul meant.
I'm using the exact same hypothetical argument Paul is using with HIS interpretation. Unless you're claiming that you were saved prior to being conceived, I have no idea what you're trying to prove. Is no one ever saved? That's the only way your argument makes any sense, and that's certainly not what Paul is arguing.

This isn't complicated. People are lost. Jesus comes to save the lost. I'm sure we can both agree on that simple statement, no??? If so, then it's a Given that there must come a point in one's life when they make that leap of faith from being damned to becoming a new creation, no???

If you agree to that, then you should have no problem answering the question because everyone begins this journey from a fallen position in sin. It's a Given!
If a person by an act of their will or a nation chooses rebellion he has a right to form it into a vessel of destruction and that's even what Jerimiah said.
By the same token, if a person or nation, by "will or effort" chooses obedience, God has the right to form them into vessels of mercy. Unfortunately, that's a works based salvation which Paul roundly condemns. So you really are going to have to come up with something better than that.

Again, look at what Paul says in Romans chapter 8. He's quite clear in pointing out that there is NOTHING you can do that will ever please God. It is only what Christ does that God is pleased with.

"It is by Grace, through faith, and that NOT OF YOURSELVES, NOT of works, lest anyone boast".

There is nothing anyone can do to save themselves. No one is justified by the works of the law. Until you get that fact straight, there is no common ground for this discussion.
 

Rockson

Active member
By the same token, if a person or nation, by "will or effort" chooses obedience, God has the right to form them into vessels of mercy. Unfortunately, that's a works based salvation which Paul roundly condemns. So you really are going to have to come up with something better than that.
Is not. The people asked what MUST WE DO to work the works of God? They asked him about what THEY needed to do. They were told,

"Do not work (their doing something) for food that spoils, but for food that endures to eternal life, which the Son of Man will give you. For on him God the Father has placed his seal of approval.” Then they asked him, “What must we do (their doing something) to do the works God requires?” Jesus answered, “The work of God is this: to believe in the one he has sent.” John 6:27

That's something THEY needed to do not something that God did for them! But you say a works based salvation? Nope. Context, context, context.....when Paul spoke about us not being saved by works he was referring to seeking to be saved by keeping the works of the law, nothing to do with just a simple declaration to believe God by faith. This is where Calvinism makes it's big mistake not understanding this.


 

TonyGee11

New Member
Thanks for taking us on this wild goose chase. I'm done.





Hello Snarkle.
Hope you`ve come back to check to see if any new posters have made statmentt to you question.
I call it the gospel in the old testament. I think it fits the bill.

Read Isaiah 1 to find the terrible condition in Israel at this time.

"Isaiah1:18 Come now, and let us reason together, saith the LORD:

These texts were meant for ISRAEL but He did not address it to them.

"Let us" God is speaking to anyone reading or hearing them, which is all of us today.

""for though your sins be as scarlet, they shall be as white as snow;
though they be red like crimson, they shall be as wool.
1:19 If ye be willing and obedient, ye shall eat the good of the
land:
Would you not count giving,' willing," a free will?

Willing to do what? Accepting this free gift of salvation!

Obedient to what? The conditions and laws of the covenant you are in.


"1:20 But if ye refuse and rebel, ye shall be devoured (eaten up or slain) with the
sword: for the mouth of the LORD hath spoken [it]."
We see here the wrath of God being meted out as justice.

Here, again we see man is given a free will to make a free choice.

Would you be willing to give up a life of sin for the free gift of eternal life?
I know some who would not ,then some who have.

Sorry I am late but just found your site. Good discussion

Will continue with more of the same from the NT
Does this answer your question?

Tony Gee11
 
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shnarkle

Well-known member
Hello Snarkle.


Here, again we see man is given a free will to make a free choice.

Which man was given the choice to be born? Which of us was given the choice to be male or female? I see quite a few people are are starting to actually make that decision long after they were born. Does that count in your theory?

Getting back to the fact that wolves are not able to become sheep, nor are tares able to will themselves into becoming wheat, it stands to reason that lumps of clay do not have free will either.
Would you be willing to give up a life of sin for the free gift of eternal life?
It doesn't matter what my will is. What matters is God's sovereign will. Do you think God unrighteous if he fits one vessel for mercy and the other for wrath? Paul clearly states that it is a Given that God is righteous, and yet it is God's decision to make one vessel for mercy and another fitted for destruction.

Either God's will is sovereign or it isn't.
Does this answer your question?
No. The question is: "what would you do if God, without repentance; revealed to you that you were one of these vessels fitted for destruction? Would you live your life any differently, or continue as if you were actually a vessel of mercy?"

This isn't a trick question. It isn't convoluted, or contradictory. Even if you believe God would never do something like this, it is still possible to answer the question I actually asked. If you don't want to, you are free to ignore it, but I will simply return the favor.
Tony Gee11
 

Gary Mac

Well-known member
Which man was given the choice to be born?
The choice in us all is to be born again of Gods Spirit that is not flesh as mortal man.
Which of us was given the choice to be male or female?
Doesnt matter in God terms we all are the same in His SPirit.
I see quite a few people are are starting to actually make that decision long after they were born. Does that count in your theory?

Getting back to the fact that wolves are not able to become sheep, nor are tares able to will themselves into becoming wheat, it stands to reason that lumps of clay do not have free will either.
But the disposition of, spirit of, is the real issue.
It doesn't matter what my will is. What matters is God's sovereign will. Do you think God unrighteous if he fits one vessel for mercy and the other for wrath? Paul clearly states that it is a Given that God is righteous, and yet it is God's decision to make one vessel for mercy and another fitted for destruction.
God doesnt fit anyone for destruction, that is Pauls opinion as a sinner not of God at all. And that is why I do not follow Paul but the way of Jesus for righteousness.
Either God's will is sovereign or it isn't.
And either He is in you to walk as He walks in His same light and perfect even as your Father in heaven is perfect or you are not.
No. The question is: "what would you do if God, without repentance; revealed to you that you were one of these vessels fitted for destruction? Would you live your life any differently, or continue as if you were actually a vessel of mercy?"
The problem in most is they are not thorough in repentance and has no intent to receieve from God to be as He is and perfect as He is as He demands of you if you are to be of Him in His same image. .
This isn't a trick question. It isn't convoluted, or contradictory. Even if you believe God would never do something like this, it is still possible to answer the question I actually asked. If you don't want to, you are free to ignore it, but I will simply return the favor.
Bottom line is, either He be in you and you be in Him as one as Jesus was one Him, John 17, and if you have seen Him as He is ye shall be like Him, 1 John 3. There is no in-between, either you are like Him or you are not and you know very well if you are like Him as Jesus was or not.
 

TonyGee11

New Member
Which man was given the choice to be born? Which of us was given the choice to be male or female? I see quite a few people are are starting to actually make that decision long after they were born. Does that count in your theory?

Getting back to the fact that wolves are not able to become sheep, nor are tares able to will themselves into becoming wheat, it stands to reason that lumps of clay do not have free will either.

It doesn't matter what my will is. What matters is God's sovereign will. Do you think God unrighteous if he fits one vessel for mercy and the other for wrath? Paul clearly states that it is a Given that God is righteous, and yet it is God's decision to make one vessel for mercy and another fitted for destruction.

Either God's will is sovereign or it isn't.

No. The question is: "what would you do if God, without repentance; revealed to you that you were one of these vessels fitted for destruction? Would you live your life any differently, or continue as if you were actually a vessel of mercy?"

This isn't a trick question. It isn't convoluted, or contradictory. Even if you believe God would never do something like this, it is still possible to answer the question I actually asked. If you don't want to, you are free to ignore it, but I will simply return the favor.
 

TonyGee11

New Member
Which man was given the choice to be born? Which of us was given the choice to be male or female? I see quite a few people are are starting to actually make that decision long after they were born. Does that count in your theory?

Getting back to the fact that wolves are not able to become sheep, nor are tares able to will themselves into becoming wheat, it stands to reason that lumps of clay do not have free will either.

It doesn't matter what my will is. What matters is God's sovereign will. Do you think God unrighteous if he fits one vessel for mercy and the other for wrath? Paul clearly states that it is a Given that God is righteous, and yet it is God's decision to make one vessel for mercy and another fitted for destruction.

Either God's will is sovereign or it isn't.

No. The question is: "what would you do if God, without repentance; revealed to you that you were one of these vessels fitted for destruction? Would you live your life any differently, or continue as if you were actually a vessel of mercy?"

This isn't a trick question. It isn't convoluted, or contradictory. Even if you believe God would never do something like this, it is still possible to answer the question I actually asked. If you don't want to, you are free to ignore it, but I will simply return the favor.
 

TonyGee11

New Member
Hello Shnarkle

I am not trying to hide from a question, coputer problem, just working on a solution you will accept that shows Gods will first.
As the texts in my post #94 show that God was talking to each individual when He said "Come now, Let US (just you & Him)
reason together, saith the Lord, though your sins be as scarlet, they shall be as white as snow; though they be red like crimson,
they shall be as wool."
He is telling you that He has forgiven you and cleansed you from all your sins. He would not do that if
it were not His will. You are now holy and without blame (sin) before Him. (Ephesians 1:4) He now askes, are you willing?
To what? To accept this free gift of salvation
Now God has let you know it is His will that He has given you salvation as a gift , but it is your choice to make.
If you want to accept it or not, or you can refuse and become one of those who are destined for destruction (Death)
Then He adds, obedient, To what? The conditions and laws of the covenant you are in. Didn`t know you were you were
under a covenant? Men have always been under covenants since Adam.
And last, but If you refuse and rebel, ye shall be devoured with the sword, for the mouth of the Lord hath spoken it.

Shnarkle, be a wise man and do as I did and accept the free gift of salvation and enter the heavenly Spiritual Kingdom of Gods Rest, which is eternal Life.
We can go to the NT and find things to verify what we found in the OT,

God only created one man. The genealogys show all men were in Adam by creation(women in men)

Try for tomorrow

Tony
 

Pipiripi

Active member
God already reveal His plan for my life. I must just keep His 10 Commandments and have the faith of Jesus.
 
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