What's reality?

jonathan_hili

Well-known member
So you think that believing, thinking and experiencing the truth and reality in the first person is flawed? And if you think that believing and experiencing the truth and reality for yourself in the first person is flawed, then in what way do you think is best to believe and experience the truth and reality?
As a metaphysical hunch, I'd just grant the independent existence of external realities. I mean, if your position is correct, what's to say that everything's not just in your head and nothing else is real? That's the problem Descartes had and I'm not sure he got out of it successfully.
 

Tercon

Well-known member
As a metaphysical hunch, I'd just grant the independent existence of external realities. I mean, if your position is correct, what's to say that everything's not just in your head and nothing else is real? That's the problem Descartes had and I'm not sure he got out of it successfully.
What do you mean when you say "nothing else is real"?
To the extent that God is a different Being or a different mind than we are I would agree. But nothing that is known and can be known to exist in reality can be known or experienced without or "independent" of a believing mind. So, reality must be a believing mind, because it cannot be known to be anything else but a believing mind.
 

Nouveau

Well-known member
What do you mean when you say "nothing else is real"?
To the extent that God is a different Being or a different mind than we are I would agree. But nothing that is known and can be known to exist in reality can be known or experienced without or "independent" of a believing mind. So, reality must be a believing mind, because it cannot be known to be anything else but a believing mind.
So you can't know that God exists independently of your mind? Then you can't know that God exists. Maybe the only existing mind is your own.
 

Tercon

Well-known member
So you can't know that God exists independently of your mind? Then you can't know that God exists. Maybe the only existing mind is your own.
Strawman, actually we can't know anything about the truth and reality period; independent or without a believing mind.
 

Nouveau

Well-known member
Strawman, actually we can't know anything about the truth and reality period; independent or without a believing mind.
Do you know that God exists as anything more than an idea in your mind?

If so, then you are wrong to say that we can't know of the existence of anything beyond our own minds.

If not, then you are wrong to say that you know God exists.
 

jonathan_hili

Well-known member
What do you mean when you say "nothing else is real"?
To the extent that God is a different Being or a different mind than we are I would agree. But nothing that is known and can be known to exist in reality can be known or experienced without or "independent" of a believing mind. So, reality must be a believing mind, because it cannot be known to be anything else but a believing mind.
If reality (and not just knowledge of reality) depends on a conscious mind, and you are a conscious mind, and this is indubitable, how do you escape solipsism (basically thinking that everything is just part of your mind)? Even God could just be an aspect of your mind, or you could be God.
 

jonathan_hili

Well-known member
So you can't know that God exists independently of your mind? Then you can't know that God exists. Maybe the only existing mind is your own.
Descartes tried to argue this based on his mental awareness of finitude and the concept of God. I'm not sure that fully works but I think if you have such an epistemology, it's certainly a problem to be dealt with.
 

Nouveau

Well-known member
Descartes tried to argue this based on his mental awareness of finitude and the concept of God. I'm not sure that fully works but I think if you have such an epistemology, it's certainly a problem to be dealt with.
Yes, Descartes tried to prove God from the certain foundation of his own existence as a thinking being, but got caught up in the Cartesian Circle of using his clear and distinct ideas/perceptions to prove God while using God to guarantee the veracity of his clear and distinct ideas/perceptions. As a result, most consider his skeptical arguments to be more cogent than his positive philosophy.
 

Tercon

Well-known member
If reality (and not just knowledge of reality) depends on a conscious mind, and you are a conscious mind, and this is indubitable,

Firstly, how do you KNOW “knowledge of reality” and “reality” are two different things, when both require a believing mind (“conscious mind”) in order to be known to exist to begin with?
And if reality “depends on a conscious mind” to be known and a conscious mind is made up of knowledge, then reality must be made up of knowledge too.

how do you escape solipsism (basically thinking that everything is just part of your mind)? Even God could just be an aspect of your mind, or you could be God.

Strawman. I don't think “that everything is just part of” my “mind”. Rather I believe that God is reality and reality exists in God's believing mind and we are just along for the ride when we like Him believe in His truth and reality.
 

Nouveau

Well-known member
Firstly, how do you KNOW “knowledge of reality” and “reality” are two different things...
He probably took the time to learn what words mean. Have you tried a dictionary?

And if reality “depends on a conscious mind” to be known and a conscious mind is made up of knowledge, then reality must be made up of knowledge too.
Non sequitur. Depending upon X to be known doesn't mean you must be made up out of the same stuff as X.

Strawman. I don't think “that everything is just part of” my “mind”. Rather I believe that God is reality and reality exists in God's believing mind and we are just along for the ride when we like Him believe in His truth and reality.
How are you able to know that God's mind exists outside of your mind?
 

Tercon

Well-known member
He probably took the time to learn what words mean. Have you tried a dictionary?

Then he like you alike know nothing about the truth and reality. As you cannot have “knowledge of reality” and know “reality” as "two different things".

Non sequitur. Depending upon X to be known doesn't mean you must be made up out of the same stuff as X.
Nonsense, as if all knowledge of the truth and reality is belief based knowledge, because belief is necessary in order to make the truth and reality known to us, then we depend upon God's and our believing mind to make His reality known to us. That's why we depend upon God's believing mind to know we exist and not our own, because it isn't our mind that reality exist, but God's and we are just along for the ride.

How are you able to know that God's mind exists outside of your mind?
Strawman, actually I "know that God's mind exists" because I believe what God believes in and with my mind and His mind is reality. Understand?
 

Tercon

Well-known member
reality is based upon the consciousness that created it...
Yes, and the only consciousness I know of is created in and by a believing mind.
so for example, this current reality since eden was conquered, has a consciousness of not caring...its nature
is utterly depraved..but Eden, God's reality, loves.

Actually in reality God never stopped caring, rather His creation just stopped believing and trusting in Him as their provider.
 

Nouveau

Well-known member
Then he like you alike know nothing about the truth and reality. As you cannot have “knowledge of reality” and know “reality” as "two different things".
Anyone who speaks competent English understand that reality and knowledge of reality are not the same thing.

Nonsense, as if all knowledge of the truth and reality is belief based knowledge, because belief is necessary in order to make the truth and reality known to us, then we depend upon God's and our believing mind to make His reality known to us. That's why we depend upon God's believing mind to know we exist and not our own, because it isn't our mind that reality exist, but God's and we are just along for the ride.
None of this addresses my point.

Strawman, actually I "know that God's mind exists" because I believe what God believes in and with my mind and His mind is reality. Understand?
I understand that you can't honestly answer the question. Again: How are you able to know that God's mind exists as anything more than an idea within your own mind?
 

Tercon

Well-known member
Anyone who speaks competent English understand that reality and knowledge of reality are not the same thing.

Please describe what you know is "reality and knowledge of reality"?

And when you get done doing that, then deal with what was said to you instead of evading it, again; 'As you cannot have “knowledge of reality” and know “reality” as "two different things"', then what are you referring to?

None of this addresses my point.
Yes it does. and if you had any integrity you'd deal with what's being said to you instead of running away.
I understand that you can't honestly answer the question.
You "understand" no such thing and you never deal with what's being said to you. Why do you hate the truth so much?
Again: How are you able to know that God's mind exists as anything more than an idea within your own mind?

Strawman. Actually everything we know "is no more than an idea in" our minds silly, as that is what it is to believe and know the truth, as we reduce everything we experience to a belief in order to make it known to us in reality. That's why belief is necessary in order to make known the truth and reality to begin with. Now, deal with what's being said to you instead of running away from the truth. Aren't you tired of running away from the truth and reality of God?
 

Tercon

Well-known member
Reality is MIPUST. Knowledge of reality is the justified true beliefs people have about MIPUST.


Right, so God exists as nothing more than an idea in your mind.
Strawman, as if God's mind is reality, then I can know God's mind and reality by just believing the same thing God believes in reality.

And just what is it that you "know" outside of a believing mind silly?
 

Nouveau

Well-known member
Strawman, as if God's mind is reality, then I can know God's mind and reality by just believing the same thing God believes in reality.
Not a strawman. It is a direct logical implication of your own claims. You said you know God, and you said that everything we know is no more than an idea in our minds. So it follows that God must be no more than an idea in your mind.

And just what is it that you "know" outside of a believing mind silly?
MIPUST, silly. The knowledge of MIPUST is in my mind, but MIPUST itself is not.
 

Tercon

Well-known member
Not a strawman. It is a direct logical implication of your own claims.

What you are saying is a strawman and a projection, because it is a misrepresentation of the logical implication that is supposed to be from my POV and not yours POV silly. What you are describing is the result of your unbelief and your POV rather than mine. I keep telling you what it means from a belief POV and BTW the ONLY way the truth and reality is known to us. But your insidious unbelief and blind hate for the truth and reality prevents from seeing the truth and reality of God.

You said you know God, and you said that everything we know is no more than an idea in our minds.

Yes, I know the truth and reality of God. And everything we know without exception comes from our minds silly. And everything we know about the truth and reality comes via a belief, and whereas it's only a believing mind that can believe, then it is only a believing mind that can know how and where the truth and reality exists. So you are pretending that if “everything we know is no more than an idea in our minds” is something unusual or false, when it the only way and means we know of and experience the truth and reality to begin with silly. You're all about the self-deception, why do you hate the truth so much?

So it follows that God must be no more than an idea in your mind.

Strawman and you are projecting, because that's all it means to you that “God must be no more than an idea in your mind”. But that's not what I said means to me, here it is again so you don't miss it this time:
My argument is that the truth and reality exist. And because a believing mind is the only way and place that the truth and reality can be known to exist, then reality must exist in someone's believing mind and that believing mind is God's.
Now, if you see something that isn't true in what I said point it out and say how and why it isn't true and anything less than that is a strawman or projection.

MIPUST, silly. The knowledge of MIPUST is in my mind, but MIPUST itself is not.

Ahhh.... So your “MIPUST” depends on a mind for its existence too? But you keep telling me that it's “mind-independent”? So, how can it be “mind-independent” when the only way it's known to you is in YOUR mind silly?
 

Nouveau

Well-known member
What you are saying is a strawman and a projection, because it is a misrepresentation of the logical implication that is supposed to be from my POV and not yours POV silly. What you are describing is the result of your unbelief and your POV rather than mine. I keep telling you what it means from a belief POV and BTW the ONLY way the truth and reality is known to us. But your insidious unbelief and blind hate for the truth and reality prevents from seeing the truth and reality of God.
It is not a strawman or projection, and logical implication is not a matter of perspective. What I am describing is the direct logical implication of your own claims. You've confirmed again in this post that (i) you know God, and (ii) everything you know is an idea in your mind. It very obviously follows from this that God is no more than an idea in your mind. If you disagree with this conclusion then you need to change one of your premises.

Ahhh.... So your “MIPUST” depends on a mind for its existence too? But you keep telling me that it's “mind-independent”? So, how can it be “mind-independent” when the only way it's known to you is in YOUR mind silly?
No, MIPUST does not depend upon any mind for its existence. Yes, it is mind-independent. As I've explained to you dozens of times before, mind-independence concerns existence, not knowledge.
 

Tercon

Well-known member
It is not a strawman or projection, and logical implication is not a matter of perspective. What I am describing is the direct logical implication of your own claims.
And according to YOUR unbelief of my belief silly. You are projecting.
You've confirmed again in this post that (i) you know God, and (ii) everything you know is an idea in your mind. It very obviously follows from this that God is no more than an idea in your mind. If you disagree with this conclusion then you need to change one of your premises.

Strawman and projection. But I don't believe that God is just "an idea in" my "mind".
Rather I believe that God is reality and reality exists. And if the only way and place that the truth and reality can be known to exist is in and by a believing mind, then reality must exist in God's believing mind or reality = God's mind.

No, MIPUST does not depend upon any mind for its existence. Yes, it is mind-independent. As I've explained to you dozens of times before, mind-independence concerns existence, not knowledge.
If YOUR "MIPUST" is mind-independent "and concerns existence, not existence", then how do YOU KNOW "MIPUST" exists in reality silly?
 
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