What's the need?

"KJVO" stands for "King James Version Only". And a KJVO is a person who believes, or at least pushes the doctrine, that the KJV is the only valid English Bible translation out there, and that no other version is valid.

This is different from "King James Version PREFERRED", people who believe the KJV is the best version out there, but not the only valid one.

The KJVO doctrine, is, of course, false, & is only a man-made myth with NO Scriptural support.
How would you define "valid"?
 

imJRR

Well-known member
These guys are here because they are safe among themselves. They think that preaching a message about God without any authority from him gives us the impression that somehow their doctrine of paraphrase, dynamic equivalence, condensing and optimization does not need a scriptural authority. They do not think the warnings of the scriptures, like Re 22:17 And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely.
18 For I (Jesus in context) testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God (Jehovah) shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book:
19 And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God (Jehovah) shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.

applies to them. They do not think God will send them to hell for changing his testimony and they actually preach that it is in the ability of so called bible scholars who have populated scores of translation committees, producing scores of translations from many different translation and doctrinal perspectives and philosophies and with variants of as many as 65,000 words among the translations without compromising a single truth that God gave by inspiration while at the same time making sure we understand that none of their translations are inspired and God had nothing to do with their production. If that is not arrogance and a claim to godhood it will certainly do until the real thing comes along. The disciples of this philosophy tell us they are the smartest people in the room for believing such nonsense.

I will produce a KJV text that warns us of the hazards of living in this present evil age and will remind us of how important it is to be vigilant and circumspect as we walk through this maze called life.

2 Cor 11:1 Would to God ye could bear with me a little in my folly: and indeed bear with me.
2 For I am jealous over you with godly jealousy: for I have espoused you to one husband, that I may present you as a chaste virgin to Christ.
3 But I fear, lest by any means, as the serpent beguiled Eve through his subtilty, so your minds should be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ.
4 For if he that cometh preacheth another Jesus, whom we have not preached, or if ye receive another spirit, which ye have not received, or another gospel, which ye have not accepted, ye might well bear with him.
5 For I suppose I was not a whit behind the very chiefest apostles.
6 But though I be rude in speech, yet not in knowledge; but we have been throughly made manifest among you in all things.
7 Have I committed an offence in abasing myself that ye might be exalted, because I have preached to you the gospel of God freely? (NOTE: the gospel of God is the good news to all nations and people that Jehovah has provided through the death burial and resurrection of Jesus Christ a way for each and every one of us to be saved from our sins, which is the second death in the lake of fire, and has sent the apostle Paul to write his instructions for living for those of us who believe in 13 letters with this gospel of God theme)

Look at the enemy and how he circumvents the truth.

Remember, there were false apostles in the church at Corinth who were accusing Paul of not really being an apostle while claiming they were and leading disciples after them. He was forced to defend his calling to them.

13 For such are false apostles, deceitful workers, transforming themselves into the apostles of Christ.
14 And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light.
15 Therefore it is no great thing if his ministers also be transformed as the ministers of righteousness; whose end shall be according to their works.

The authority line is where Satan finds us most vulnerable. Before the writing of the NT scriptures (2 Cor was written in 54 AD, the sixth of the NT letters), Satan attacked the apostle Paul.

Acts 20:28 Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood.
29 For I know this, that after my departing shall grievous wolves enter in among you, not sparing the flock.
30 Also of your own selves shall men arise, speaking perverse things, to draw away disciples after them.
31 Therefore watch, and remember, that by the space of three years I ceased not to warn every one night and day with tears.

May the Lord be exalted in the person of his wonderful Son, the Lord Jesus Christ and his testimony of 8 eye witnesses who wrote the words of the NT scriptures.

JDS - I'm sure that the above was fun to type, but it is total imagination to believe that the above actually engages in any direct way the o.p. The only thing it does is falsely accuse people. Also, and as usual - NOTHING in any of the Scripture references you posted has any support whatsoever to KJVONLYism - It is total, total imagination to believe they do, and you cannot really and truly show otherwise - The posting history shows that your posts never have shown otherwise, and that is because you cannot produce what does not exist.
 

JDS

Well-known member
JDS - I'm sure that the above was fun to type, but it is total imagination to believe that the above actually engages in any direct way the o.p. The only thing it does is falsely accuse people. Also, and as usual - NOTHING in any of the Scripture references you posted has any support whatsoever to KJVONLYism - It is total, total imagination to believe they do, and you cannot really and truly show otherwise - The posting history shows that your posts never have shown otherwise, and that is because you cannot produce what does not exist.
Actually it was fun to type and I did not accuse anyone by name of anything and the conclusions I drew were from the scriptures that I actually quoted as my foundation for my thoughts. You would not disagree with those words even from a KJV, would you? The authority line remains the 8 apostles and the 70 prophets that we are introduced to as the authority for what any of us believes, isn't it?

I can see that Satanic principles work no matter the time period and that first the attack by other apostles was about what Paul said, and last, the attack is upon what he wrote. We have changed that in our day. At the first the false apostles of Corinth did not believe the words Paul spoke, and later wrote.. Today the new agers do not believe the apostle wrote the words he spoke. They have condensed them, optimized them, paraphrased them, and applied some dynamic equivalence, and in the process let us know how spiritual they are for having the ability to do such a thing. Sixty five thousand words difference is a big deal. Don't you think?
 

logos1560

Well-known member
These guys are here because they are safe among themselves. They think that preaching a message about God without any authority from him gives us the impression that somehow their doctrine of paraphrase, dynamic equivalence, condensing and optimization does not need a scriptural authority. They do not think the warnings of the scriptures, like Re 22:17 And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely.
18 For I (Jesus in context) testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God (Jehovah) shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book:
19 And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God (Jehovah) shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.

applies to them.

You continue your improper misrepresentation and distortion of the views of non-KJV-only believers. You read your own subjective KJV-only opinions into verses that do not teach what you suggest.

You also fail to apply Revelation 22:18-19 to the doctrinally-unsound Church of England makers of the KJV with their own inconsistent translation practices that included what you claim to be paraphrase, dynamic equivalence, condensing, and optimization to renderings that favored Church of England doctrinal views.
 

imJRR

Well-known member
Actually it was fun to type and I did not accuse anyone by name of anything and the conclusions I drew were from the scriptures that I actually quoted as my foundation for my thoughts. You would not disagree with those words even from a KJV, would you? The authority line remains the 8 apostles and the 70 prophets that we are introduced to as the authority for what any of us believes, isn't it?

I can see that Satanic principles work no matter the time period and that first the attack by other apostles was about what Paul said, and last, the attack is upon what he wrote. We have changed that in our day. At the first the false apostles of Corinth did not believe the words Paul spoke, and later wrote.. Today the new agers do not believe the apostle wrote the words he spoke. They have condensed them, optimized them, paraphrased them, and applied some dynamic equivalence, and in the process let us know how spiritual they are for having the ability to do such a thing. Sixty five thousand words difference is a big deal. Don't you think?

JDS - The Scriptures you quoted have no reference at all to the imaginary belief of KJVONLYism - That is fact, truth, and reality, and your posts have never shown otherwise because they cannot show what does not exist.

As for words being condensed, optimized and etc., and the difference in the number or words in versions - These have already been answered (more than once), and there is no post by you that proves that those answers are in any way wrong. Here again - You cannot produce proof that does not exist.

Let's make this easy: Directly address and respond to the first two sentences of the original post - Prove that those statements are wrong.
 

logos1560

Well-known member
Abbott had more than one chaplain over the years. Who was it and what did he actually say? If you don't know, then give whatever source you have.
He only had one chaplain that wrote a book relating to the KJV.

In his 1659 book, Robert Gell, who had been chaplain of KJV translator George Abbot, maintained that “dogmatic interests were in some cases allowed to bias the translation,” and one of those dogmatic interests he referred to as “the prelatic view” and the other was Calvinism (Essay Toward the Amendment of the Last Translation of the Bible).

John Lewis asserted that Robert Gell “reflected on this new translation as wrested and partial, and speaking the language of and giving authority to one sect” (Complete History, p. 333).
 

JDS

Well-known member
JDS - The Scriptures you quoted have no reference at all to the imaginary belief of KJVONLYism - That is fact, truth, and reality, and your posts have never shown otherwise because they cannot show what does not exist.

As for words being condensed, optimized and etc., and the difference in the number or words in versions - These have already been answered (more than once), and there is no post by you that proves that those answers are in any way wrong. Here again - You cannot produce proof that does not exist.

Let's make this easy: Directly address and respond to the first two sentences of the original post - Prove that those statements are wrong.
edit. You have not answered scripturally why we should accept the various translations that employ a variety of translation philosophies in the same language from the same source manuscripts. Philosophies that include optimizations, condensing, dynamic equivalences, and paraphrases, with an occasional word for word translation thrown in. The best you have done is offered an opinion developed by others who hold your views of the scriptures, opinions which amounts to nothing.

It is insulting for those who think for themselves to have you try to convince us that no doctrine is compromised by all these English equivalences and paraphrases and optimizations that you claim God had nothing to do with but say they are exactly what God inspired originally. Excuse me but I don't know how to reason like you.
 
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Theo1689

Well-known member
It is insulting for those who think for themselves to have you try to convince us that no doctrine is compromised by all these English equivalences and paraphrases and optimizations that you claim God had nothing to do with

Okay, this is what I would like to see.
Which doctrines are "compromised" by other translations?
- monotheism?
- deity of Christ?
- virgin birth?
- death on the cross?
- resurrection?
- what?

Modern translations teach the EXACT same doctrines as the KJV.

but say they are exactly what God inspired originally.

By definition, NO English translation represents "exactly" what the Greek text says.
Translation simply doesn't work that way.

That's why most good comprehensive commentaries require and provide about a paragraph of English for every verse/sentence in the Greek text, to adequately convey all the meaning in the text.

Excuse me but I don't know how to reason.

I agree.
 

imJRR

Well-known member
JDS, I have been 100% honest, and the posting history clearly shows that. For your post to say or even suggest otherwise is blatant falsehood, because it goes directly in opposition to the posting history. The whole "scriptural argument" for the KJV has already been answered numerous times - There isn't one. There is no post by you on any thread at any time that shows there is, because you cannot produce what never has and does not exist. Your belief in a scriptural argument for KJVONLYism is nothing more than mere and sheer imagination - THAT is the recorded posting history.

As for "thinking for yourself" - Please pay better attention - THAT is what I'm asking you to do: Produce the proof that a Christian doctrine is omitted or threatened by the modern versions that you yourself have listed. For all the blathering accusations of "inferiority" and "corruption" your posts do about non-KJV versions, you have yet to produce any solid evidence of this when it comes to Christian belief/teaching. Here again, the reason for that is because you cannot produce what does not exist.

And you are correct - Your posts do show that you don't reason as I do - The posting history is that your posts don't show what can be called true "reasoning", period - They only show gullible blind belief in an imagination that parallels first century gnosticism in both doctrine and behavior - KJVONLYism.
 
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JDS

Well-known member
You continue your improper misrepresentation and distortion of the views of non-KJV-only believers. You read your own subjective KJV-only opinions into verses that do not teach what you suggest.

You are falsely accusing and tell me what they do teach. What do you believe and why do you believe it?
You also fail to apply Revelation 22:18-19 to the doctrinally-unsound Church of England makers of the KJV with their own inconsistent translation practices that included what you claim to be paraphrase, dynamic equivalence, condensing, and optimization to renderings that favored Church of England doctrinal views.

I don't claim these things you mentioned, the author of this op made that claim on other threads and I am referencing him every time i say it. Besides, my opinion is as good as yours.
 

JDS

Well-known member
JDS, I have been 100% honest, and the posting history clearly shows that. For your post to say or even suggest otherwise is blatant falsehood, because it goes directly in opposition to the posting history. The whole "scriptural argument" for the KJV has already been answered numerous times - There isn't one. There is no post by you on any thread at any time that shows there is, because you cannot produce what never has and does not exist. Your belief in a scriptural argument for KJVONLYism is nothing more than mere and sheer imagination - THAT is the recorded posting history.

edit You have not shown the mind of God that supports your view and you have not quoted a single verse from any of the scores of translations that you say are the same as the inspired word of God he gave to the apostles and prophets. Youi have offered opinions and I contend that my opinions are as good as yours, but different.
As for "thinking for yourself" - Please pay better attention - THAT is what I'm asking you to do: Produce the proof that a Christian doctrine is omitted or threatened by the modern versions that you yourself have listed. For all the blathering accusations of "inferiority" and "corruption" your posts do about non-KJV versions, you have yet to produce any solid evidence of this when it comes to Christian belief/teaching. Here again, the reason for that is because you cannot produce what does not exist.

Are you kidding? The doctrines of God are in his words and the scriptures clearly state it. I have given you the statement several times over and you have ignored it and rambled off into your stock defensive posture. You are a man with an opinion and a high regard for yourself, if you ask me.

The proverb of the day:
Most men will proclaim their own goodness, but a faithful man who can find.
The posting history is that your posts don't show "reasoning", period -

This is an over the top insult. I have indeed shown reasoning. You may not agree with it but I have presented my reasoning.
 
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imJRR

Well-known member
It has not and it dishonest for you to say it. You have not shown the mind of God that supports your view and you have not quoted a single verse from any of the scores of translations that you say are the same as the inspired word of God he gave to the apostles and prophets. Youi have offered opinions and I contend that my opinions are as good as yours, but different.


Are you kidding? The doctrines of God are in his words and the scriptures clearly state it. I have given you the statement several times over and you have ignored it and rambled off into your stock defensive posture. You are a man with an opinion and a high regard for yourself, if you ask me.

The proverb of the day:
Most men will proclaim their own goodness, but a faithful man who can find.


This is an over the top insult. I have indeed shown reasoning. You may not agree with it but I have presented my reasoning.

The "verse" argument has already been answered - There is no verse or passage that supports KJVONLYLism. The only place that argument has acceptance is in the imaginations of KJVONLYists, and there has never been a post by you that shows otherwise, because you can't produce what doesn't exist. So no - Because there is not one shred of evidence anywhere that supports your opinions and refutes mine, your opinions are not as good as mine. Your posts have never produced anything "real" that supports KJVONLYism; and they never will. You can't produce what doesn't exist - All your posts can do is keep repeating your imaginary belief in one form or another.

And no - I am not kidding in the slightest way with what I write. If you were able to refute me with real, actual evidence for ONLY the KJV having (your words) "God's words" and "God's stamp of approval", you have had MANY opportunities to do that. None of your posts ever have (except purely and only in your imagination), and that is because you cannot produce evidence that does not exist.

And no - Your posts do not show genuine true "reasoning" - They only show a blind gullible belief in an imagination - KJVONLYism. That IS the recorded posting history of your posts.
 
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Theo1689

Well-known member
The "verse" argument has already been answered - There is no verse or passage that supports KJVONLYLism. The only place that argument has place is in the imaginations of KJVONLYists,

But here's the thing....

The KJVO methodology is to accept or reject manuscripts as a whole. Sinaiticus is "corrupt", the "minority manuscripts" are "corrupt". Yet there is NO single manuscript that EXACTLY matches the KJV in all its passages.

They reject many of these manuscripts, saying, "they all disagree with each other", yet EVERY Greek manuscript "disagrees with each other", and so under that "standard", we can't trust ANY Greek manuscripts. Further still, an allegedly "perfect" manuscript IS going to disagree with "imperfect" manuscripts, so that is not a valid standard for rejecting ALL the manuscripts they do.

There are ZERO Greek manuscripts which perfectly match the KJV. The KJV wasn't even translated from manuscripts, it was translated from published text collations, from Erasmus and (I believe) Beza. And these published Greek texts were created using the SAME methodology that we use today with the Critical Edition, the main difference being that they didn't have all the manuscripts we have available today. So while they CONDEMN the methodology of assembling a collated text by evaluating the variants at each verse, their KJV is BASED ON that same methodology they condemn!

If someone like JDS was locked in a room with with all the Greek manuscripts that were available to the KJV translators, even if he could read Greek, it would be impossible for him to come up with the EXACT same text as that KJV New Testament. It simply isn't possible.
 

JDS

Well-known member
The "verse" argument has already been answered - There is no verse or passage that supports KJVONLYLism. The only place that argument has acceptance is in the imaginations of KJVONLYists, and there has never been a post by you that shows otherwise, because you can't produce what doesn't exist. So no - Because there is not one shred of evidence anywhere that supports your opinions and refutes mine, your opinions are not as good as mine. Your posts have never produced anything "real" that supports KJVONLYism; and they never will. You can't produce what doesn't exist - All your posts can do is keep repeating your imaginary belief in one form or another.
There you go yet again. Stating an opinion. This is all you have done so far. If my teaching is incorrect it is because the scriptures say it is, not because you have an opinion that has nothing whatsoever to do with the scriptures or the Christian faith and an opinion you cannot prove. If my teaching on the word of God violates the true teaching of the scriptures, show from the scriptures how it does. You cannot do it because it does not exist. This is the only measurement that counts. Edit per mod.


And no - I am not kidding in the slightest way with what I write. If you were able to refute me with real, actual evidence for ONLY the KJV having (your words) "God's words" and "God's stamp of approval", you have had MANY opportunities to do that. None of your posts ever have (except purely and only in your imagination), and that is because you cannot produce evidence that does not exist.

Edit personal attack
And no - Your posts do not show genuine true "reasoning" - They only show a blind gullible belief in an imagination - KJVONLYism. That IS the recorded posting history of your posts.
Here is a man who has an opinion that men have produced English translations over and over, men who have optimized the words the prophets wrote in the original languages, and who have placed words and condensed the number of them by what he calls dynamic equivalence, and given us several paraphrases of already produced translations with modern day slang and gender modifications and then with the nerve to say all these and any of these are on a par with the inspired original language testimony of God himself and none of them compromises any doctrine of God. My head spins.

Psalm 119:130
The entrance of thy words giveth light; it giveth understanding unto the simple.

Light in the scriptures is a type for understanding.

12 Then spake Jesus again unto them, saying, I am the light of the world: he that followeth me shall not walk in darkness, but shall have the light of life.

Here is an example of how he gives understanding of the Father.

Jn 14:9 Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Show us the Father?

He demonstrates the attributes of the Father in human form. This is new. If you want to understand the Father, study the Son. The Son is the Word that sheds light on the Father.

There is nothing on earth more important to us mortals than the word of God.
 
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RiJoRi

Well-known member
It seems that the KJVO's have nothing to offer but ad hominem.
... ad nauseum. 😕

As I've said before, KJVONLYism is an emotional reaction — based on feelings of security (the KJV 1769 has been around for 400 years, after all 😲) — rather than a rational response. I fear that we have become The Enemy in their minds and rationality only shows proof for their beliefs, which are, in the end, irrational. 😔

--Rich
 

imJRR

Well-known member
From JDS: imJRR said: The "verse" argument has already been answered – There is no verse or passage that supports KJVONLYLism. The only place that argument has acceptance is in the imaginations of KJVONLYists, and there has never been a post by you that shows otherwise, because you can't produce what doesn't exist. So no - Because there is not one shred of evidence anywhere that supports your opinions and refutes mine, your opinions are not as good as mine. Your posts have never produced anything "real" that supports KJVONLYism; and they never will. You can't produce what doesn't exist - All your posts can do is keep repeating your imaginary belief in one form or another.

There you go yet again. Stating an opinion. This is all you have done so far.

# The above is wrong and worse than wrong and (unfortunately) no surprise. What I have typed is not opinion, is irrefutable fact: There is no verse or passage that supports KJVONLYism. The only place that idea has any acceptance is in the imagination of KJVONLYists. There is no post by you that shows otherwise. There never has been; there never will be. Posting that this is mere opinion is not only openly ignoring the posting history; it is not only falsehood; it is a departure from reality.

If my teaching is incorrect it is because the scriptures say it is, not because you have an opinion that has nothing whatsoever to do with the scriptures or the Christian faith and an opinion you cannot prove. If my teaching on the word of God violates the true teaching of the scriptures, show from the scriptures how it does. You cannot do it because it does not exist. This is the only measurement that counts. Stop and desist with this foolishness.

# Reality: Your belief is wrong - and worse - because of the irrefutable fact, truth, and reality that KJVONLYism is not based on the word of God in the slightest way at all. There is no scripture that points to or supports the imaginary and gnostic belief of KJVONLYism. You have had MANY opportunities to show otherwise, and your posts have totally and miserably failed every single time – That is the recorded posting history. To post otherwise engages in open, blatant falsehood.

imJRR said: And no - I am not kidding in the slightest way with what I write. If you were able to refute me with real, actual evidence for ONLY the KJV having (your words) "God's words" and "God's stamp of approval", you have had MANY opportunities to do that. None of your posts ever have (except purely and only in your imagination), and that is because you cannot produce evidence that does not exist.

I have and your mindset numbs you to reasonable thought and logical conclusions. You are living in darkness.

# LOL! The posting history show that you NEVER have refuted me – Not one time. Go ahead - Feel free to point to the post where you imagine you have done so – Give the post number so we can all go see for ourselves. You won't because you cannot – You cannot produce what has never and does not exist.

imJRR said: And no - Your posts do not show genuine true "reasoning" - They only show a blind gullible belief in an imagination - KJVONLYism. That IS the recorded posting history of your posts.

Here is a man who has an opinion that men have produced English translations over and over, men who have optimized the words the prophets wrote in the original languages, and who have placed words and condensed the number of them by what he calls dynamic equivalence, and given us several paraphrases of already produced translations with modern day slang and gender modifications and then with the nerve to say all these and any of these are on a par with the inspired original language testimony of God himself and none of them compromises any doctrine of God. My head spins.

# You have typed open, blatant falsehood with the above and here's why that's true: Whenever I have referred to other translations in my posts, I have pointed to the ones that YOU YOURSELF have listed. I have NEVER said that “any and all versions are on par with the inspired original language” - not one time. That means that your posting that I have is nothing less than a lie; and the proof of it being a lie is right here in the posting history. I have never once said what you accuse; I have only ever referred to YOUR OWN LISTING, not "any and all". Besides this, the KJV itself has already been shown to not be all that “on par with the inspired original languages” – there was condensing and optimizing and deleting and adding in the making of the KJV, and the only, and I mean ONLY thing your posts have ever done is run away from that truth.

The rest of your post is just the usual typing verses that have nothing at all to do with KJVONLYism.
 
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imJRR

Well-known member
Refute you? You have said nothing that needs refuting. Good grief! You have not stated a biblical position either pro or con about any subject. I am losing confidence in you as the smartest person in the room with every post you make.

Do better or I am putting you on ignore. My time posting time here is valuable and I am here on a supposedly Christian forum to speak about things biblical. So far you have shown nothing but disdain for the scriptures and have not attempted to prove from them that your position on the scriptures is more biblical than mine and you certainly have not tried to prove any opinion you have stated except by more opinions.

LOL! I have stated my position many times and very clearly for any and all to read right here on this thread and others - And because of that, it is open, blatant falsehood for you to post I have not. You also post blatant falsehood when you say I have disdain for the Scriptures and here's why: What I disdain is KJVONLYism. KJVONLYism isn't biblical any more than a cat is a moose. It is an imaginary belief that definitely leads to a form of gnosticism in both doctrine and behavior; and there is no scriptural basis for it at all, except in the imaginations of KJVONLYists. No post by you has ever shown otherwise, and the reason for that is that you cannot do so. You cannot produce evidence that does not exist.

You see, JDS, this is how this thread works: There is no post of yours anywhere, at any time that has ever actually refuted what I've said above. You may imagine this has happened, but that's all it is - an imagination and nothing more (like your KJVONLY belief). You cannot point to one post of yours where refutation really, truly, actually happens. If you imagine/believe you can, give the number of the post where you imagine/believe this happens.

By the way - Putting me on 'ignore' will prove and confirm that I am 100% right. It will be the very same thing that JWs do when they can't refute.
 
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