What's your eternity going to be like?

Aghast. Give me a break. You are truly dramatic. Anyone reading the interactions between thee and me will see I have neither reacted aghast nor retracted my comments and I have told you I have interacted with far more effective atheists than you, you are giving yourself far too much credit. You are way over your head.
If you can’t smell the exaggerated rhetoric involved in this discussion, then you are even a bigger disappointment than I first thought. I am ready to discuss everything from the history of your Bible, the apocalyptic nature of your religion, heaven and hell, and the original intention and failure of Jesus and the kingdom to come, and the Joseph Smith nature of the Christian hero - Paul.. So yeah... I get it, you haven’t seen anything at that level of effectiveness yet. I just like informing you how humanly offensive your religion is before I get there.... the depraved sinner scratching for the blood of a human sacrifice for a slice of eternity.
 
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I guess what you wrote makes sense in your own mind but I really don't see much beyond victimhood whining.
I don’t feel victimized. I see the opportunity your belief gives me and feel empowered. Wasn’t it you that said you stand up for yourself - your beliefs...? But the first thing you did when confronted was refuse to defend them... you punted to my Judgement Day. So when I actually meet you here in this it’s whining? You are getting comical here.
 
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I don’t feel victimized. I see the opportunity your belief gives me and feel empowered. Wasn’t it you that said you stand up for yourself - your beliefs...? But the first thing you did when confronted was refuse to defend them... you punted to my Judgement Day. So when I actually meet you here in this it’s whining? You are getting comical here.
I've never refused anything 5wize. You have spent an inordinate amount of time attempting to poison the well but that has been as effective as your skill at debate.
 
I never had objections to "Christianity", or any spirituality. I just didn't care, one way or another.
Ok. Our little exchange started with you saying ... "So, if God can save a wretch and brute like me, He can save you too".

I'm not so sure because you had no objections to Christianity, no standard of evidence that would need to be met before belief. The atheists here have and they view a supposed changing of heart by God as poor evidence that God exists.
 
I don’t feel victimized.
Seems you do. In fact much of your comments has leaned in that direction.
I see the opportunity your belief gives me and feel empowered.
How nice for you.
Wasn’t it you that said you stand up for yourself - your beliefs...?
I did.
But the first thing you did when confronted was refuse to defend them... you punted to my Judgement Day.
Why beat around the bush. You read my first comment, what else to say.
So when I actually meet you here in this it’s whining? You are getting comical here.
It's not comical. It's sad.
 
I've never refused anything 5wize. You have spent an inordinate amount of time attempting to poison the well but that has been as effective as your skill at debate.
What debate? You never entered the arena.... you punted to my judgement day and explained I was Jesus’s responsibility, not yours.

Again, visions of the Lion in the Wizard of Oz here.
 
Ok. Our little exchange started with you saying ... "So, if God can save a wretch and brute like me, He can save you too".
Yes. I believe that with my whole heart.
I'm not so sure because you had no objections to Christianity, no standard of evidence that would need to be met before belief.
It's not that I didn't have objections, I was anti-spiritual because I wasn't raised in a bubble. I just didn't care what they believed, or professed because at 18 years old I was a total hedonist. Any belief, rule, law, moral value, standard, societal expectation, that interfered with my own physical gratification was immaterial.
The atheists here have and they view a supposed changing of heart by God as poor evidence that God exists.
I understand.
 
... you punted to my judgement day and explained I was Jesus’s responsibility, not yours.
It wasn't a punt. It's the truth. And I cannot change your heart 5wize, I already wrote that to you. Only the direct intervention of God can change a man's heart.
 
It wasn't a punt. It's the truth. And I cannot change your heart 5wize, I already wrote that to you. Only the direct intervention of God can change a man's heart.
Then what exactly do you mean "I have interacted with far more effective atheists than you” if this is your M.O.? What is there to engage with with the escape clause you have given yourself? The only thing I’m focused on here is based on the vapid assertions you made about the non Cristian world’s character and getting you to understand the inherent human insult that festers in you based on those beliefs. You don’t present an apologetic’s argument for any “effective” atheist rebuttal. Do you want that? State how you know what you believe is actually true. All you’ve done so far is regurgitate biblical sentiments that we are all aware of that claim non Christians are degenerate, in love with their sin, and damned. It’s brainless Cristian boilerplate.... and I’m somehow the one who lacks effective arguments?
 
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Then what exactly do you mean "I have interacted with far more effective atheists than you” if this is your M.O.
The point was clear. I'm not sure why you are trying to portray it as muddied. Certainly you're smarter than this.
What is there to engage with with the escape clause you give yourself.
Escape clause. Making a statement is an escape clause...
The only thing I’m focused on here is getting you to understand the inherent human insult you carry with you as a result of your beliefs...
And we come back to the how do my beliefs demonstrably harm you, physically or emotionally? It seems ironic you. an atheist, who claims to not believe the Bible, not believe in God, not believe in Hell or damnation, not believe in sin, but are claiming to be insulted by statements I made that are delineated in the Bible, that you claim NOT to believe in. Very ironic. Methinks you're more about feigning victimhood because you believe it will stop me from expressing my beliefs. I would wish you luck with that endeavor but I don't believe in luck, so just keep tossing things at the wall to see what sticks.
You don’t present an apologetic’s argument for any “effective” apologetic rebuttal. Do you want that?
I think if you look at your replies to me you have little cause to be pointing a finger at me.
 
The point was clear. I'm not sure why you are trying to portray it as muddied. Certainly you're smarter than this.

Escape clause. Making a statement is an escape clause...

And we come back to the how do my beliefs demonstrably harm you, physically or emotionally? It seems ironic you. an atheist, who claims to not believe the Bible, not believe in God, not believe in Hell or damnation, not believe in sin, but are claiming to be insulted by statements I made that are delineated in the Bible, that you claim NOT to believe in. Very ironic. Methinks you're more about feigning victimhood because you believe it will stop me from expressing my beliefs. I would wish you luck with that endeavor but I don't believe in luck, so just keep tossing things at the wall to see what sticks.

I think if you look at your replies to me you have little cause to be pointing a finger at me.
The only thing I’m focused on here is based on the vapid and narrow assertions you made about the non Cristian world’s character and getting you to understand the inherent human insult that festers in you based on those beliefs. You have controlled the narrowness of this discussion by the narrowness of your own engagement. State how you know what you believe is actually true. All you’ve done so far is regurgitate biblical sentiments that we are all already aware of that claim non Christians are degenerate, in love with their sin, and damned.

It’s brainless, rote, Cristian boilerplate.... and I’m somehow the one who lacks effective arguments?
 
The only thing I’m focused on here is based on the vapid and narrow assertions you made about the non Cristian world’s character and getting you to understand the inherent human insult that festers in you based on those beliefs. You have controlled the narrowness of this discussion by the narrowness of your own engagement. State how you know what you believe is actually true. All you’ve done so far is regurgitate biblical sentiments that we are all already aware of that claim non Christians are degenerate, in love with their sin, and damned.

It’s brainless, rote, Cristian boilerplate.... and I’m somehow the one who lacks effective arguments?
The things I wrote about the lost are not my judgments or based on my righteousness but God's. As such I'm not talking about temporal consequences for what you choose to do in this life but eternal consequences for what you choose not to do in this life.
 
The things I wrote about the lost are not my judgments or based on my righteousness but God's. As such I'm not talking about temporal consequences for what you choose to do in this life but eternal consequences for what you choose not to do in this life.
You are getting ahead of yourself. You need to back up your claim that all humans are degenerate, love their sin and are damned. The trajectory of human experience and reality does not agree with you.

I’ll start by granting you that we are creatures of addiction and fear by biology and psychology, and it causes us to act in less that stellar ways towards each other when that fear and need are triggered. But over time we are learning to navigate this reality about us, and especially others, and are attempting to meet the needs of more and more over time to keep that anxiety in check thus allowing for more safety, peace, and civilization to evolve as we learn to navigate it. I see that as the positive side of us - not degenerate or damned at all, but fearful and needy, yet willing to salve it for all’s sake - and I see no god in that historical trajectory. If anything, if I were to believe in God, the creator of all, He would be responsible for the fear and need in our character and we fight that original evil in Him every generation to help lift us from that as much as possible.
 
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You are getting ahead of yourself. You need to back up your claim that all humans are degenerate, love their sin and are damned.
I never stated all humans are degenerate. And don't try to blow me off, I have not always been a follower of the Way. I know what it's like to love what is considered sin (what's that old saying...it's easier to be bad then good) by those who follow the Way. That and to be in denial that this sin, the wages of which is death, is wrong. So, yea...you're not making much headway here. Reality is much different than you are portraying here but I understand why. Justification is a human trait and characteristic.
I’ll start by granting you that we are creatures of addiction and fear by biology and psychology, and it causes us to act in less that stellar ways towards each other. But over time we are learning to navigate this reality about us and attempting to meet the needs of more and more over time to keep that anxiety in check thus allowing for more safety, peace, and civilization to evolve as we learn to navigate it.
We are far more then biological and "psychological" (Freud was a fraud). We are spiritual. Even in denial of this aspect of our nature, as many do, we know in our hearts this is true. Else, why bother arguing against what one doesn't supposedly belief in. Man's heart doesn't change. The hearts of men 2000 years ago are still the hearts of men today. Just look at the news. But it's like you are claiming we have made some evolutional leap to become "higher beings" now. Different from our ancestors who, I guess, were less...evolved. Yea...not thinking so. Technology is more refined, but we are innately the same.
I see that as the positive side of us - not degenerate or damned at all, but fearful yet willing to salve it - and I see no god in that historical trajectory.
All have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God 5wize. No one is without sin and if someone says they don't sin they are a liar. But the difference between thee and me is you see us as evolved primates. Accidents of the cosmos. No real purpose but just to be. As for me we are all specially made by our Creator. Each one of us stitched together in our mother's wombs by a loving, righteous and just Creator, Jesus Christ.
 
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I never stated all humans are degenerate. And don't try to blow me off, I have not always been a follower of the Way. I know what it's like to love what is considered sin (what's that old saying...it's easier to be bad then good) by those who follow the Way. That and to be in denial that this sin, the wages of which is death, is wrong. So, yea...you're not making much headway here. Reality is much different than you are portraying here but I understand why. Justification is a human trait and characteristic.

We are far more then biological and "psychological" (Freud was a fraud). We are spiritual. Even in denial of this aspect of our nature, as many do, we know in our hearts this is true. Else, why bother arguing against what one doesn't supposedly belief in. Man's heart doesn't change. The hearts of men 2000 years ago are still the hearts of men today. Just look at the news. It's like you are claiming we have made some evolutional leap to become "higher beings" now, different from our ancestors who were less...evolved. Yea...not thinking so. Technology is more refined but we are inately the same.

All have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God 5wize. No one is without sin and if someone says they don't sin they are a liar. But the difference between thee and me is you see us as evolved primates. As for me we are all specially made by our Creator. Each one of us stitched together in our mother's wombs by a loving, righteous and just Creator, Jesus Christ.
See. You got it wrong right off the bat. I never said we evolved away from the fear and need that constitutes us. We are all one Leningrad winter away from that reality at all times. What I claim is that we have come to realize that everybody’s safety and peace relies on not having that triggered in anybody. Again, there is no sign of God in that trajectory of man.

And on one hand you claim we are not all degenerate and by the time you get to the and have forgotten what you wrote we are all sinners again.

The spirit or soul is Hellenized concept (not a Christian one) that is just an anthropomorphism of our ability to reflect intellectually and emotionally. The awareness of our emotional states married itself to the capacity of man to anthropomorphize everything is what constitutes the entirety of that strong internal knowledge you feel in your heart that there is an eternal being under it all.
 
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Neither of these people exist.
Do you have proof of this?
Because historically factual documents say otherwise.

Since YHVH doesn't exist, the likelihood of me saying that he lied is equal to the likelihood that you will ever tell the truth about what I write.
I'm thinking that the problem you're having here is that the truth terrifies you, and you'll do whatever you think will work to make you appear right in the sight/perspectives of people.

Which is incredibly sad, because the only Person to who's perspective we should all be concerned about is YHVH's.

Since there's no factual or objective evidence either of your God's existence or of His having written or inspired a single word, this statement is worthless.
So, I'm supposed to believe that you actually know everything, and possess all possible knowledge of all eternity?
Wow! 😳🧐🙄
This is genuinely impressive!
Whence did you acquire this knowledge?
have you actually traveled the cosmos, and beyond?
because if not, just how would you know if YHVH exists or not?
especially when he says that he holds the entire cosmos in the span of his hand, and inhabits eternity?
we further read that he resists the proud, and gives grace to the humble.

So, by all means! Please explain to us how you acquired all the knowledge, across all eternity, beyond the realm of all the cosmos...



Evidence for this unlikely assertion?
YHVH himself.
He actually gave us highly pragmatic evidence of himself.
Israel, and the Jewish people.

I don't mock you. I pity you your wasted life.
That is mockery.
 
I noticed you didn’t highlight the claims of eternal conscious suffering.
You noticed.... apparently you're not actually reading.

I think you have become educated as a result of your own exercise.
Ah.
What a novel concept!

Something that you appear to refuse to engage in.

YHVH was, and is quite clear on this issue.

Whosoever shall call on his name shall be saved.

He further stated,

I will give you a heart to know me.

Jesus said that he will not turn away anyone who comes to him.

He further stated,

Joh 14:23 WEB Jesus answered him, “If a man loves me, he will keep my word. My Father will love him, and we will come to him and make our home with him.

So.... exercised myself to become educated?

Yes, actually! I did.

thankfully , YHVH has been doing exactly what he said he would!

he dwells with the humble and contrite.

you should come and see for yourself.
 
You noticed.... apparently you're not actually reading.


Ah.
What a novel concept!

Something that you appear to refuse to engage in.

YHVH was, and is quite clear on this issue.

Whosoever shall call on his name shall be saved.

He further stated,

I will give you a heart to know me.

Jesus said that he will not turn away anyone who comes to him.

He further stated,

Joh 14:23 WEB Jesus answered him, “If a man loves me, he will keep my word. My Father will love him, and we will come to him and make our home with him.

So.... exercised myself to become educated?

Yes, actually! I did.

thankfully , YHVH has been doing exactly what he said he would!

he dwells with the humble and contrite.

you should come and see for yourself.
Still missing the highlights in the verses where eternal conscious torment is established. I see by your usual biblical thrashing about you have conceded that fact.
 
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Have you not got it yet? No one reads your long-winded BS, Steve.
So, you actually are dedicated to your deliberate and willful ignorance?

Furthermore, if you're actually telling me the truth, why are you here?

Because telling me that is actually stating that you prefer stupidity.

Willful ignorance is the state and practice of ignoring any sensory input that appears to contradict one's inner model of reality. At heart, it is almost certainly driven by confirmation bias and/or avoidance of cognitive dissonance.

Willful ignorance differs from ordinary “ignorance“ — when someone is simply unaware of something — in that willfully ignorant people are fully aware of facts, resources, and sources, but refuse to acknowledge them. Indeed, calling someone "ignorant" shouldn’t really be a pejorative, but intentional and willful ignorance is an entirely different matter. In practice, though, the word "ignorance" has often come to mean "willful ignorance", and indeed, in many non-English languages, the word based on the same stem ("ignore") actually carries that meaning.[citation needed]

Willful ignorance is sometimes referred to as tactical stupidity.
 
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