Yodas_Prodigy
Well-known member
That’s not what the passage says…
When does Sin End ...
- Thread starter Yodas_Prodigy
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Carbon
Super Member
Hmm.
I’m amil.
Carbon
Super Member
Sin will end at the end of the age and believers are glorified.
Josheb
Well-known member
I think the discussion will benefit from a view of the larger narrative in which Daniel 9:24 is found. We want to avoid the practice of proof-texting, or treating one verse as if it is definitive at the expense of all else scripture as a whole has to say.
Daniel 9:20-27
Now while I was speaking and praying, and confessing my sin and the sin of my people Israel, and presenting my supplication before the LORD my God in behalf of the holy mountain of my God, while I was still speaking in prayer, then the man Gabriel, whom I had seen in the vision previously, came to me in my extreme weariness about the time of the evening offering. He gave me instruction and talked with me and said, "O Daniel, I have now come forth to give you insight with understanding. At the beginning of your supplications the command was issued, and I have come to tell you, for you are highly esteemed; so give heed to the message and gain understanding of the vision. Seventy weeks have been decreed for your people and your holy city, to finish the transgression, to make an end of sin, to make atonement for iniquity, to bring in everlasting righteousness, to seal up vision and prophecy and to anoint the most holy place. So you are to know and discern that from the issuing of a decree to restore and rebuild Jerusalem until Messiah the Prince there will be seven weeks and sixty-two weeks; it will be built again, with plaza and moat, even in times of distress. Then after the sixty-two weeks the Messiah will be cut off and have nothing, and the people of the prince who is to come will destroy the city and the sanctuary. And its end will come with a flood; even to the end there will be war; desolations are determined. And he will make a firm covenant with the many for one week, but in the middle of the week he will put a stop to sacrifice and grain offering; and on the wing of abominations will come one who makes desolate, even until a complete destruction, one that is decreed, is poured out on the one who makes desolate."
When we examine the larger portion we find there are several geographic and "temporal" markers (or "timestamps") provided by the text. The first is this vision specifically pertains to Jerusalem, or "the holy city." Chronologically, at this point in the history of scripture that term, "holy city," was understood specifically as a reference to Jerusalem, but as the New Testament occurs and illuminates the Old we learn that the "holy city," or Jerusalem, or the "city of peace (jeru = city; salem = peace) is a reference to the body of Christ, and that city is not limited geographically, temporally, nor ethnically. the next four markers (finishing transgression, ending sin, making atonement, and bringing everlasting righteousness are all four matters specifically tied to the Messiah. That's not stated in the Daniel text, but they are further revealed in the newer revelation. This is best understood from Paul's exposition in Romans 5. For the sake of space only the last half of that chapter is posted but the narrative covers about five chapters.
Romans 5:12-21
Therefore, just as through one man sin entered into the world, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men, because all sinned— for until the Law sin was in the world, but sin is not imputed when there is no law. Nevertheless death reigned from Adam until Moses, even over those who had not sinned in the likeness of the offense of Adam, who is a type of Him who was to come. But the free gift is not like the transgression. For if by the transgression of the one the many died, much more did the grace of God and the gift by the grace of the one Man, Jesus Christ, abound to the many. The gift is not like that which came through the one who sinned; for on the one hand the judgment arose from one transgression resulting in condemnation, but on the other hand the free gift arose from many transgressions resulting in justification. For if by the transgression of the one, death reigned through the one, much more those who receive the abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness will reign in life through the One, Jesus Christ. So then as through one transgression there resulted condemnation to all men, even so through one act of righteousness there resulted justification of life to all men. For as through the one man's disobedience the many were made sinners, even so through the obedience of the One the many will be made righteous. The Law came in so that the transgression would increase; but where sin increased, grace abounded all the more, so that, as sin reigned in death, even so grace would reign through righteousness to eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.
And a few chapters later he concluded,
Romans 8:1-2
Therefore there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus. For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has set you free from the law of sin and of death.
Additional insight is provided by the author of Hebrews. The author of Hebrews begins his epistle stating, "God, after He spoke long ago to the fathers in the prophets in many portions and in many ways, in these last days has spoken to us in His Son, whom He appointed heir of all things, through whom also He made the world...." (Heb. 1:1-2), and then turns to say,
Hebrews 2:1-4
For this reason we must pay much closer attention to what we have heard, so that we do not drift away from it. For if the word spoken through angels proved unalterable, and every transgression and disobedience received a just penalty, how will we escape if we neglect so great a salvation? After it was at the first spoken through the Lord, it was confirmed to us by those who heard, God also testifying with them, both by signs and wonders and by various miracles and by gifts of the Holy Spirit according to His own will.
Note the context is the clear statement the Hebrews epistle was written in the last days. In the past every transgression received a just penalty, but in these last days in which Christ had been revealed (1 Peter. 1:20), that no longer applies. The blood of Christ covers all sin. Or, as Paul put it, transgression resulted in condemnation, but as
Transgression is finished. The last days came in the first century.
For the sake of space I'll stop here, but similar revelation about the end of sin, atonement for iniquity, and "bringing everlasting righteousness are also found in the New Testament.
CrowCross
Super Member
Can a glorified person sin?
CrowCross
Super Member
Are believers glorified at the end of the age or resurrection?
Carbon
Super Member
Well my understanding is at the end of the age is judgement. Separating the sheep from the goats. Then the sheep are glorified and sin is gone.
CrowCross
Super Member
This is a good question for me as I never really looked into it.
It sounds as if during the 1000 year reign of Christ sin will still be possible as Satan gets released at the end and has the ability to temp people above their sin nature. I'm speaking of those who made it through the tribulation and their descendants.... and not those who had previous died, been raptured or killed during the tribulation.
Yodas_Prodigy
Well-known member
The real dividing line here is how one interprets Revelation and its application to Church history.
Is Revelation primarily a history of the early Church and the destruction of the Jewish system?
Is Revelation a representative of the entire history of the Church?
Is Revelation primarily a future history?
Whichever one you choose will come with assumptions made by you... Another question is which assumptions are best?
CrowCross
Super Member
I agree.
I doubt it. There may be some parallels.
Some say the letters to the church's represent the church history. I haven't really gone down that path yet.
Yes.
I don't see it as an assumption, that is Revelation as being a past history as what has been spoken of hasn't happened yet.
Yodas_Prodigy
Well-known member
Well, to assume Revelation is mostly future history from our POV is an assumption. We must take some things in consideration. the first is the language that is used. Most will agree that revelation is apocalyptic in nature as well as symbolic.
CrowCross
Super Member
Some parts are symbolic....I don't disagree.
The accounts presented in Rev are most definately future....or do you see New Jerusalem?
Carbon
Super Member
Interesting.
But personally I do not believe scripture teaches a pre-trib rapture. In Matthew 24:
Then two men will be in the field; one will be taken and one left. Two women will be grinding at the mill; one will be taken and one left. Therefore, stay awake, for you do not know on what day your Lord is coming.
Is speaking (I believe) of when Christ returns and is setting up judgement as believers are raptured to meet the Lord in the air as he comes.
CrowCross
Super Member
i respect your opinion as I see Christ returning twice. Once in the sky and then at the end of the trib riding a white horse.
The preceeding verse speaks of...For in the days before the flood, people were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage....which doesn't sound like the "fun" times of the end of the trib.
I see the trib as.. three reasons... as God deals with Satan and his demons, the nations, and God dealing with Israel.
Carbon
Super Member
I respect yours as well.
But I do not see more than one second coming.
I believe the previous verses are teaching as in Noah’s day, the end will come as a surprise.
I believe we are in the tribulation period.
CrowCross
Super Member
I see it like this....in Acts they are told Jesus will return the way He left....this fits the rapture of 1 thes 4.
In Revelations we see Jesus returning on a white horse. This is not how he left in Acts.
But, that's just my opinion.
I think it's more than that.
I believe we are in the birth pangs of Matt 24.
Carbon
Super Member
Thanks for sharing. 🙂
CrowCross
Super Member
Maybe one day there will be a thread on this.
i know ones belief doesn't dictate their salvation.
Carbon
Super Member
Start one if your interested
Arkycharlie
Super Member
I'll jump in here late. I agree, this is a very good question. I'm premil and that most certainly informs my answer to the question. And this is my best guess. When Christ returns and establishes the one thousand year millennial kingdom, every Jew who enters that kingdom will be subject to Jeremiah 33:
They will not sin. However, they will have offspring, and their children will not inherit the spirit that God put in their parents. For the rest of the MK, sin will return in those offspring. The book of Joel describes Israel at the end of the MK. Joel also provides a different view of the Gog-Magog invasion described in Ezekiel 38-39 and Revelation 20. When Satan and his horde are destroyed, Joel tells us this will occur:
This describes the evolution into the eternal state described in the closing passages of Revelation when sin will finally be eradicated for all eternity. That’s my best guess. And I also do not care to debate the issue.