When does Sin End ...

[Bob Carabbio]

What view am I allowed to have without getting dragged into an argument?

Chuckle!!! No view at all probably wouldn't even do it!!! Argument is what CARM is here for, after all.

 

[Josheb]

What view am I allowed to have without getting dragged into an argument?

I ask that because this sounds like an interesting question. I simply don't want to get drug into an argument. Discuss, fine, debate... no!

Sorry!

Curious response. It implies ill intent on the part of others, and does so presumptively, AND in spite of acknowledging the question is interesting. Ironic since you're one of the most dismissive posters I've engaged in CARM. Even when I agree with you! Evidence to that effect can be found


Rule 12.3

Do not discuss a forum poster on the discussion boards/messages/chat, and do not attempt to moderate a forum poster’s correct behaviors. Stick to the topic of discussion.

Links removed.

Comment removed

It takes two to argue. It takes two to discuss.

Seems like everyone else is trying to drag people into arguments.

Comment removed

Wouldn't have been better to simply address the op?

I'm not interested in playing games or arguing about it.

Looks just the opposite. The question, "What view am I allowed to have without getting dragged into an argument?" Edit



It's the eschatology board. The matters discussed here are some of the most diverse, divided, and divisive held in modern Christendom.

 

[SteveB]

Curious response.

i agree.

edit

After what i went through with a number of people in the C&A forum, I simply wasn't interested in an argument or debate.
as nobody ever responded, and it's been 4-1/2 months now, I'd forgotten all about it.

Edit

my apologies. 10 years in the atheist forum makes it an easy thing to do.
it's simply the result of being weary of arguing.

Edit

believe me I have.
That said, I didn't start, nor continue my time on the internet forums with the intent of conversing with people who are going to heaven.
i started, and continued my time on internet forums to talk with people who are going to perish. Jesus did say- I came to call sinners to repentance, not the righteous.

It takes two to argue. It takes two to discuss.

indeed.

Edit

and?
Did you come to berate me 4-1/2 months after the fact, or did you have a point pertaining to the op itself?

Wouldn't have been better to simply address the op?

i thought i had.
what view am I allowed to have without it being turned into an argument?
it was a simple enough question.
i was weary of arguing with people.
and in light of the various discussions with others who believe in Jesus around that time, i really didn't want a long drug out beating.

Edit

you are indeed entitled to your opinion.

It's the eschatology board. The matters discussed here are some of the most diverse, divided, and divisive held in modern Christendom.

Indeed.
Which was exactly why I framed the question the way I did.
I'm not new to internet discussions. I've been talking with strangers of a large variety for at least 22, to 24 years now.

After a while..... in this case, the fall of last year, I'd grown weary, and apparently made a mistake thinking i could come into a Christian subforum, and rejuvenate, and seek restoration, refreshing.

It was made clear to me that doesn't happen, nor would it, unless the people I'm conversing with agree with me. It became apparent to me that it's not enough to trust in Jesus, I must have a specific, and select collection of ideas, and failure to do so is heresy to the nth degree.



So, you'll probably note that I haven't been in the Christian side of these forums for a while.

I think the point was made rather clear that Christians here think I'm something of a monster. Some made it quite clear that it's not possible that I even know Jesus.

So....
What, exactly, is your goal here?
Not to instigate an argument. Just to ascertain your reason for commenting on a several month old post.

In Christ.

 

[SteveB]

and how does your millennial view fit in to this passage?

24 “Seventy weeks have been determined
concerning your people and your holy city
to put an end to rebellion,
to bring sin to completion,
to atone for iniquity,
to bring in perpetual righteousness,
to seal up the prophetic vision,
and to anoint a Most Holy Place.

Well, since two people have commented on my post this morning, and I'd completely forgotten about this op, I'll state that I think sin ends at Revelation 20:14:15.


Rev 20:14-15 WEB 14 Death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire. 15 If anyone was not found written in the book of life, he was cast into the lake of fire.

21:1 says a new heaven and a new earth will be the start of a new civilization, without any sin in the human race who are accounted worthy to be included.

 

[SteveB]

That is part of the problem to be solved because I just got done telling you what is the goal: polite and respectful topical discourse! I even recommended some options besides replying to my post in an overt effort NOT to take this thread further off-topic and give you the oppportunity to do better in the future.

You're being dismissive again. Can you see it?

More importantly, can you stop it?

I empathize. Having spent a lot of time in non-discussions with what are more accurately described as antitheists I have born the effects, learned from the experience, and set better goals, boundaries, and expectations in an effrot not to let those influences sabotage my correspndence outside secular boards.

I think that is a smoke screen. I would normally respond with something to the effect of you know your heart better than anyone else but the truth of scripture is the heart is deceitful above all else and the truth of the threads - which is why I provided evidence - is that perhaps time in the sec boards has left you "gun shy". If so then shake it off and get back to being the bold, courageous adopted son of The Most High God you were created to be in Christ.

John 3:18-21
18Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because they have not believed in the name of God’s one and only Son. 19This is the verdict: Light has come into the world, but people loved darkness instead of light because their deeds were evil. 20Everyone who does evil hates the light, and will not come into the light for fear that their deeds will be exposed. 21But whoever lives by the truth comes into the light, so that it may be seen plainly that what they have done has been done in the sight of God.

Walking in the light when the propensity to do the opposite appeals to the flesh is challenging.

Proverbs 27:17
As iron sharpens iron, so one person sharpens another.

That does not happen without friction! Implicit within that proverb is the reality of friction. Expecting an absence of friction always and everywhere is not scriptural. The same holds true of,

2 Timothy 3:16-17
16All Scripture is https://biblehub.com/nasb_/2_timothy/3.htm#fninspired by God and beneficial for teaching, for rebuke, for correction, for training in righteousness; 17so that the man or woman of God may be [k]fully capable, equipped for every good work.

Rebuke, correction don't happen without friction. Sometimes teaching and training are tough.

Yep



I like (some of) your ops. Have yet to be able to discuss any of them because of the consistent dismissal and hiding behind the false dichotomy of "I want to discuss, not debate or argue," and equally dismissive and ironically baiting rhetoric of "I wonder what response wouldn't get me dragged into an argument." especially since complete liberty to freely answer and address the op was present but ignored.

Do better so the next time I post an op-reply to a thread you start so a discussion happens. That is, after all, what you claim you want.


Act like it.

Do better next time?
You clearly did not understand what I said.
Have a great day.

 

[Josheb]

Well, since two people have commented on my post this morning, and I'd completely forgotten about this op, I'll state that I think sin ends at Revelation 20:14:15.


Rev 20:14-15 WEB 14 Death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire. 15 If anyone was not found written in the book of life, he was cast into the lake of fire.

21:1 says a new heaven and a new earth will be the start of a new civilization, without any sin in the human race who are accounted worthy to be included.

The book of Revelation opens and closes with statements saying the events described in its revelation were going to happen quickly because the time was then at hand.

Do you read those words literally, as written, with the ordinary meaning of those words in normal usage? Or do you make them say something else by adding to or subtracting from them in the book that explicitly tells us not to do so?

The new heaven and earth are tied to the new Jerusalem. This implies there is an old Jerusalem being replaced by the new one. Is that the way you see it?

The text in question says, "end of sin," NOT "endo of sinfulness". Is there a difference between sin and sinfulness? If so, is difference germane to the op's inquiry?

 

[SteveB]

Yes. Do better.

Right. Blame the other guy. Do it oblivious to what it says about you (Mt. 7).

You're being dismissive again, hiding behind the "I want to discuss, not debate," self-contradictorily.


I have replied to your op-relevant post and done so op-relevantly. This is the opportunity to do your part achieving your goal: discussion.

Your response made it clear that you expect me to be obedient to your command, and utterly dismissed everything I'd explained about my background, and reason for my post.
So, you get what you want. I give you what I actually owe.

There's only one thing I "owe" you.

And it's not obedience.

Rom 13:8 WEB Owe no one anything, except to love one another; for he who loves his neighbor has fulfilled the law.

And as love is always the goal, and the point foe those who are learning to follow Jesus,

Pro 27:5-6 WEB 5 Better is open rebuke than hidden love. 6 The wounds of a friend are faithful, although the kisses of an enemy are profuse.

And love is defined as

1Co 13:6-7 WEB 6 doesn’t rejoice in unrighteousness, but rejoices with the truth; 7 bears all things, believes all things, hopes all things, and endures all things.


I realize at this point that you have an exceedingly high opinion of yourself.
I'm fine if that's what you actually want.

I was of the impression that being honest about our state, with others who are also following Jesus actually matters.
Which is exactly what I did... I was quite clear why I didn't want to get dragged into arguments, and even apologized for it, stating why.

Apparently, you don't hold that view, and expect others to bow to your greatness.

So, as Paul tells us in Romans 12,

Rom 12:3 WEB For I say through the grace that was given me, to everyone who is among you, not to think of yourself more highly than you ought to think; but to think reasonably, as God has apportioned to each person a measure of faith.

Rom 12:9 WEB Let love be without hypocrisy. Abhor that which is evil. Cling to that which is good.

Rom 12:16 WEB Be of the same mind one toward another. Don’t set your mind on high things, but associate with the humble. Don’t be wise in your own conceits.


Don't worry though. I think that you have made your point, and opinions crystal clear.

 

[SteveB]

I'll jump in here late. I agree, this is a very good question. I'm premil and that most certainly informs my answer to the question. And this is my best guess. When Christ returns and establishes the one thousand year millennial kingdom, every Jew who enters that kingdom will be subject to Jeremiah 33:



They will not sin. However, they will have offspring, and their children will not inherit the spirit that God put in their parents. For the rest of the MK, sin will return in those offspring. The book of Joel describes Israel at the end of the MK. Joel also provides a different view of the Gog-Magog invasion described in Ezekiel 38-39 and Revelation 20. When Satan and his horde are destroyed, Joel tells us this will occur:



This describes the evolution into the eternal state described in the closing passages of Revelation when sin will finally be eradicated for all eternity. That’s my best guess. And I also do not care to debate the issue.

Hi.

Here's one for you.

According to Isaiah 65:20, it seems to be saying that in the millennium, the people who entered the kingdom in Matthew 25, will live out natural lives. I'm guessing they'll have children (I haven't seen anything or heard anything that would say they won't have children), and they will grow up and apparently if they reject Jesus, they'll die at 100 years of age and they'll be considered children of young age.

Isa 65:20 WEB “No more will there be an infant who only lives a few days, nor an old man who has not filled his days; for the child will die one hundred years old, and the sinner being one hundred years old will be accursed.

Moreover, there will apparently be kingdoms who refuse to acknowledge God, and come to Jerusalem to worship, and they will experience drought as a result.

Zec 14:16-19 WEB 16 It will happen that everyone who is left of all the nations that came against Jerusalem will go up from year to year to worship the King, Yahweh of Armies, and to keep the feast of booths. 17 It will be that whoever of all the families of the earth doesn’t go up to Jerusalem to worship the King, Yahweh of Armies, on them there will be no rain. 18 If the family of Egypt doesn’t go up and doesn’t come, neither will it rain on them. This will be the plague with which Yahweh will strike the nations that don’t go up to keep the feast of booths. 19 This will be the punishment of Egypt and the punishment of all the nations that don’t go up to keep the feast of booths.

Furthermore, at the end of the millennium, the devil is released, gathers a massive number of people who rebel against God, and he puts it down. Revelation 20:7-9.

as such (yes, I'm premil too), sin will exist in the millennium.

Which is why I say it'll stop at Revelation 20:14-15-
After the millennium.

 

[Arkycharlie]

Hi.

Here's one for you.

According to Isaiah 65:20, it seems to be saying that in the millennium, the people who entered the kingdom in Matthew 25, will live out natural lives. I'm guessing they'll have children (I haven't seen anything or heard anything that would say they won't have children), and they will grow up and apparently if they reject Jesus, they'll die at 100 years of age and they'll be considered children of young age.

Isa 65:20 WEB “No more will there be an infant who only lives a few days, nor an old man who has not filled his days; for the child will die one hundred years old, and the sinner being one hundred years old will be accursed.

Moreover, there will apparently be kingdoms who refuse to acknowledge God, and come to Jerusalem to worship, and they will experience drought as a result.

Zec 14:16-19 WEB 16 It will happen that everyone who is left of all the nations that came against Jerusalem will go up from year to year to worship the King, Yahweh of Armies, and to keep the feast of booths. 17 It will be that whoever of all the families of the earth doesn’t go up to Jerusalem to worship the King, Yahweh of Armies, on them there will be no rain. 18 If the family of Egypt doesn’t go up and doesn’t come, neither will it rain on them. This will be the plague with which Yahweh will strike the nations that don’t go up to keep the feast of booths. 19 This will be the punishment of Egypt and the punishment of all the nations that don’t go up to keep the feast of booths.

Furthermore, at the end of the millennium, the devil is released, gathers a massive number of people who rebel against God, and he puts it down. Revelation 20:7-9.

as such (yes, I'm premil too), sin will exist in the millennium.

Which is why I say it'll stop at Revelation 20:14-15-
After the millennium.

It sounds to me like we're pretty much in agreement here! I don't have a problem with anything that you've said. I am curious if you disagree with my use of the passages from Joel? I consider Joel one of the most misunderstood books in the "minor" prophets.

 

[SteveB]

It sounds to me like we're pretty much in agreement here! I don't have a problem with anything that you've said. I am curious if you disagree with my use of the passages from Joel? I consider Joel one of the most misunderstood books in the "minor" prophets.

I think your timing with Joel is off.

I've always been taught, and have viewed that passage of God pouring out his Spirit on all flesh as a pre-millennium occurrence.

I.e., the day of Pentecost until the day Jesus sets foot on the mount of olives.

Since Jesus will be ruling from Jerusalem during the millennium, there's plenty of evidence that he is real, resurrected, and knowable.

Now..... something that I hadn't specifically considered before....

During the Millennium, the Holy Spirit may indeed take on other "duties" that we're not yet aware of.

 

[Josheb]

Furthermore, at the end of the millennium, the devil is released, gathers a massive number of people who rebel against God, and he puts it down. Revelation 20:7-9.

as such (yes, I'm premil too), sin will exist in the millennium.

Which is why I say it'll stop at Revelation 20:14-15-
After the millennium.

It sounds to me like we're pretty much in agreement here! I don't have a problem with anything that you've said. I am curious if you disagree with my use of the passages from Joel? I consider Joel one of the most misunderstood books in the "minor" prophets.

I have a few questions for you both.

1) Can you point me to a specific verse in the book of Revelation where it explicitly states Jesus is physically living on earth?

I see this matter of sin's end has come up in posts from all three of us. Hebrews 9:26 seems to indicate an end has already been put to sin.

Hebrews 9:26
Otherwise, He would have needed to suffer often since the foundation of the world; but now once at the consummation of the ages He has been manifested to put away sin by the sacrifice of Himself.

Jesus was manifested to put away sin, and put away sin by the sacrifice of himself. Jesus did sacrifice himself. That sacrifice "put away sin. the very next verses states Jesus will return for a salvation "apart from sin," a salvation that has nothing to do with sin.

2) Has the end of sin occurred or not?

Hebrews 9:26 is a curious verse because in the very next chapter the exact same author states,

Hebrews 10:19-27
Therefore, brethren, since we have confidence to enter the holy place by the blood of Jesus, by a new and living way which He inaugurated for us through the veil, that is, His flesh, and since we have a great priest over the house of God, let us draw near with a sincere heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled clean from an evil conscience and our bodies washed with pure water. Let us hold fast the confession of our hope without wavering, for He who promised is faithful; and let us consider how to stimulate one another to love and good deeds, not forsaking our own assembling together, as is the habit of some, but encouraging one another; and all the more as you see the day drawing near. For if we go on sinning willfully after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, but a terrifying expectation of judgment and the fury of a fire which will consume the adversaries.


3) is that "fire which will consume the adversaries," the fiery lake of Revelation 20?

If Hebrews 9:26 is read as written, then sin has been put away, and if Hebrews 10:26 is correct then sinfulness continued even after sin had been put away.

4) Does that not inform our understanding of Daniel 9:24's "end of sin"?

I mean no offense by this last comment but you are both premillennialists. I am, therefore, going to ask you to look at the text of the scriptures cited and read them as written, and not through the lens of your already-existing premillennialism.

1. Can you show me where in Revelation Jesus is explicitly stated to physically live on earth?
2. Has sin been "put away"?
3. Is the consuming fire of Hebrews 10:27 the same as Revelation 20's fiery lake?
4. Don't these answers inform our reading and understanding of Daniel 9:24?

.

 

[Josheb]

and how does your millennial view fit in to this passage?

24 “Seventy weeks have been determined
concerning your people and your holy city
to put an end to rebellion,
to bring sin to completion,
to atone for iniquity,
to bring in perpetual righteousness,
to seal up the prophetic vision,
and to anoint a Most Holy Place.

What is it, specifically, that would lead you to think Daniel 9:24 has anything to do with the "1000 years" of Revelation 20? Is there something specific in Daniel 9:24 that leads you directly to Revelation 20? If not specifically verse 24, then is there something specific in the verses surrounding Daniel 9:24 that leads you to Revelation 20? How about the reverses? What in Revelation 20:1-7 leads yo to conclude Daniel 9:24 is specifically about the premillennial view of the millennium?

What does scripture say elsewhwere about the specific stipulations of Daniel 9:24? What else does scripture say about...

• your people and the holy city?
• ending the rebellion?
• bringing sin to completion?
• atoning for inquity?
• bringing perpetual righteousness?
• unsealing the vision?
• anointing the holy place?

I've got to head off to work so take your time, examine the scriptures, see what they say about each of those events or conditions and let me know what you find.

 

[SteveB]

You're being rude, disrespectful, dismissive, and off-topic again.

And unloving.

You opened the door. Nobody was looking for your opinion.
That you think your opinion matters, just shows that you're not paying attention to your initial post to me. You should go back and read it. Apparently forum mgmt said that you violated an important rule.

As such, i think we're done until you change your tact.

I would ask you to show me which of those words above is loving but that would be off-topic.

I completely agree. So how about you discuss the op and show some love? Be true to your word and don't debate or argue.

Have a great day.

 

[Josheb]

What does scripture say elsewhere about the specific stipulations of Daniel 9:24? What else does scripture say about...

• your people and the holy city?
• ending the rebellion?
• bringing sin to completion?
• atoning for inquity?
• bringing perpetual righteousness?
• unsealing the vision?
• anointing the holy place?

Let's examine the verse in detail. The beginning of the verse states, "Seventy weeks have been decreed for your people and your holy city..."

This "seventy weeks," is not something specified for the entire world, according to the verse. The verse doesn't mention anyone else and no other location beside the "your people," and the "holy city." On first read it might seem that the "your people" is a reference to "God's people," but it is God who is speaking to Daniel in this vision. The "your" is Daniel. Therefore, the "your people" in that verse is Daniel's people. God could have said "My people," and been consistent with Daniel's prayer but that is not what he said. Who are Daniel's people. It can be confusing because earlier in the chapter, the first 4/5's of the chapter is all about God's people. There are four uses of "your people" in the chapter and the first three are all about God's people. That changes at verse 22. At verse 22 God is the one speaking. The first three uses of "your people" were Daniel speaking to God about God's people. The last mention is God speaking to Daniel about Daniel's people.

And what is this "holy city"? I'll skip the exegesis defining this city because I assume we all know the holy city is physically Jerusalem Christologically Christ and his body. At the time this vision was given to Daniel the physical city of Jerusalem had been laid to waste. Verse 24 implies there is a future for the city and the next verse confirms that conclusion.

Daniel 9:25
So you are to know and understand that from the issuing of a decree to restore and rebuild Jerusalem, until Messiah the Prince, there will be seven weeks and sixty-two weeks; it will be built again, with streets and moat, even in times of distress.

There would be 69 "weeks" from the time the decree to restore and rebuild Jerusalem until the Messiah comes. This prophesy is promissory. The city will be rebuilt "even in times of distress." The end of that 69 weeks would be the coming of the Messiah. So when was the decree issued to rebuild the city and when did the Messiah come?

According to Ezra 5:13 the decree to rebuild the temple was issued during the reign of Cyrus, and the decree to rebuild the rest of the city was issued during the reign of Artaxerxes.

Ezra 5:13
However, in the first year of Cyrus king of Babylon, King Cyrus issued a decree to rebuild this house of God.

Nehemiah 2:5-8
5Then I said to the king, “If it pleases the king, and if your servant has found favor before you, I request that you send me to Judah, to the city of my fathers’ tombs, that I may rebuild it.” 6Then the king said to me, with the queen sitting beside him, “How long will your journey be, and when will you return?” So it pleased the king to send me, and I gave him a definite time. 7And I said to the king, “If it pleases the king, let letters be given me for the governors of the provinces beyond the River, so that they will allow me to pass through until I come to Judah, 8and a letter to Asaph the keeper of the king’s forest, so that he will give me timber to make beams for the gates of the citadel which is by the temple, for the wall of the city, and for the house to which I will go.” And the king granted them to me because the good hand of my God was on me.

So the fulfillment of the vision began shortly after the vision was given to Daniel. The conclusion of the 69 weeks was stipulated as "the coming of the Messiah." When did that happen? There are several possible answers to that. Some might say the birth of Jesus is when the Messiah came. Others would say it was when he began his earthly ministry (his baptism, or the changing of the water into wine). However a person wishes to parse the Messiah's coming we know that event had occurred by John 7 because Jesus himself references the prophesied coming of the Messiah and declares himself to be that Messiah.

John 7:27-29
27However, we know where this man is from; but when the Messiah comes, no one knows where he is from.” 28Then Jesus cried out in the temple, teaching and saying, “You both know me and you know where I am from; and I have not come of myself, but He who sent me is true, whom you do not know. 29I do know Him, because I am from Him, and He sent me.”

The first 69 weeks of Daniel 9:24's seventy weeks had begun and been completed by John 7:29 and it specifically had to do with Daniel's people, not God's people, and the holy city, Jerusalem.

Yes?

 

[Josheb]

Daniel 9:24
Seventy weeks have been decreed for your people and your holy city, to finish the wrongdoing, to make an end of sin, to make atonement for guilt, to bring in everlasting righteousness, to seal up vision and prophecy, and to anoint the Most Holy Place.

What does scripture say elsewhwere about the specific stipulations of Daniel 9:24? What else does scripture say about...

• your people and the holy city?
• ending the rebellion?
• bringing sin to completion?
• atoning for inquity?
• bringing perpetual righteousness?
• unsealing the vision?
• anointing the holy place?

Post #55 addresses the people and place of the prophecy contained in Daniel's vision. It's not God's people, but Daniel's people, and verse 25 informs us the holy city is Jerusalem. Among Daniel's people in the rebuilt Jerusalem seventy weeks have been decreed for "ending the rebellion" as the NET and some translations word it, or "finish the transgression," as the KJV, NAS, and ESV word it. Other translations use words like, "wrongdoing,"

This is a curious element of the verse because rebellion and transgression are sin, or more accurately, rebellion and transgression are sinful. The Hebrew word used here in verse 24 is "pesha." (H6588). The Hebrew word for sin is "chata" (H2398). Chata is the term used in the next clause, the clause stating, "bringing sin to completion." So, either the text is being redundant to emphasize the sin, or the text is describing two different conditions being addressed, both rebellion and sin. Since two different words are being used and the redundancy is unnecessary, I am inclined to read the verse to say two related, but distinct conditions are being addressed, rebellion and sin.

So what else does scripture say about the end of rebellion? Well, there's a pile of verses spread throughout the OT prophets (Is. 30:9; Jer. 28:16, and plenty of other places) but perhaps Ezekiel 2:3 is most salient to the question of Daniel's people being rebellious.

Ezekiel 2:3
Then He said to me, “Son of man, I am sending you to the sons of Israel, to a rebellious people who have rebelled against Me; they and their fathers have transgressed against Me to this very day.

The Son of Man, Jesus' own term for himself, the Messiah was sent specifically to a rebellious people who rebelled and transgressed against God. Some Christians, especially premillennialists, will appeal to 2 Thessalonians 2:3 to say the "rebellion" had not yet occurred during the New Testament era so the ending of the rebellion was something still in their future and therefore still in our future, future to the 21st century. However, the Greek word translated in some English transalations as rebellion is more accurately translated as apostacy, not rebellion. The Greek word for rebellion is "parapikrasmos," and that is the term the author of Hebrews uses when he wrote,

Hebrews 3:14-16
14For we have come to share in Christ, if indeed we hold our original confidence firm to the end. 15As it is said, “Today, if you hear his voice,
do not harden your hearts as in the rebellion.” 16For who were those who heard and yet rebelled? Was it not all those who left Egypt led by Moses?

The implication being the rebellion had ended. Now this is the rebellion that had occurred in the wilderness between Egypt and the promised land, not the rebellion for which the Israelites had been exiled to Babylon, the specific rebellion for which Daniel was in exile. I will, however, argue all the various individual rebellions are simply aspects of one large rebellion against God of which all the prophets spoke.

According to Paul,

1 Timothy 1:8-9
8But we know that the Law is good, if one uses it lawfully, 9realizing the fact that law is not made for a righteous person but for those who are lawless and rebellious, for the ungodly and sinners....

So, there is a direct correlation between the giving of the Law and rebellion. The Greek term here is "anypotaktois," or disobedience. Paul generalizes from the giving of the Law to the Hebrews to sin in general and the specific sins in the rest of that text, but he ties rebellion directly to the giving of the Law. This is another reference specifically to the rebellion occuring under Moses, and not that of the Babylonian exile, but Israel (Daniel's people) had been rebellious all along.



The point of all this being if the "end of rebellion" "finishing of transgression" specified in Daniel 9:24 is something different than "the end of sin," then it was accomplished in the New Testament era. It was accomplished either within that 69-week period of time between the decree to rebuild Jerusalem occurring under Artaxerxes and the appearance of the Messiah and his sacrifice of himself, or during the one-week period that followed those 69 weeks.

Yes?

 

[Josheb]

Daniel 9:24
Seventy weeks have been decreed for your people and your holy city, to finish the wrongdoing, to make an end of sin, to make atonement for guilt, to bring in everlasting righteousness, to seal up vision and prophecy, and to anoint the Most Holy Place.

What does scripture say elsewhwere about the specific stipulations of Daniel 9:24? What else does scripture say about...

• your people and the holy city?
• ending the rebellion?
• bringing sin to completion?
• atoning for inquity?
• bringing perpetual righteousness?
• unsealing the vision?
• anointing the holy place?

Here I would like to take a completely different approach to the inquiry of this op, that of examining only the Hebrew in this verse alone. The transliteration of the Hebrew reads as follows....

Hebrews 9:24 (Hebrew transliteration)
Weeks seventy are determined for your people for city your holy to finish the transgression to make an end of sins and to make reconciliation for iniquity and to bring in righteousness everlasting and to seal up vision and prophecy and to anoint the holy most.


As everyone can see that is substantively different than the translation quoted in the opening post. Absent any punctuation added to the text, the first clause reads, "Seventy weeks are determined for your people city your holy to finish the transgression." There is no comma between "your people," and "the holy city." What the Hebrew says is the people are the holy city.

That would comport with several things taught in the New Testament but most salient is Hebrews 11.

Hebrews 11:9-10, 13-16, 39-40
9By faith he lived as an alien in the land of promise, as in a foreign land, dwelling in tents with Isaac and Jacob, fellow heirs of the same promise; 10for he was looking for the city which has foundations, whose architect and builder is God.... 13All these died in faith, without receiving the promises, but having seen them and having welcomed them from a distance, and having confessed that they were strangers and exiles on the earth. 14For those who say such things make it clear that they are seeking a country of their own. 15And indeed if they had been thinking of that country from which they went out, they would have had opportunity to return. 16But as it is, they desire a better country, that is, a heavenly one. Therefore God is not ashamed to be called their God; for He has prepared a city for them..... 39And all these, having gained approval through their faith, did not receive what was promised, 40because God had provided something better for us, so that apart from us they would not be made perfect.

.....and, of course, the new city, the new Jerusalem, is adorned like a bride and it comes down from heaven.

Revelation 21:1-4
1Then I saw a new heaven and a new earth; for the first heaven and the first earth passed away, and there is no longer any sea. 2And I saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, made ready as a bride adorned for her husband. 3And I heard a loud voice from the throne, saying, “Behold, the tabernacle of God is among men, and He will dwell among them, and they shall be His people, and God Himself will be among them, 4and He will wipe away every tear from their eyes; and there will no longer be any death; there will no longer be any mourning, or crying, or pain; the first things have passed away.”

So, I again ask you both,

1. Can you show me where in Revelation Jesus is explicitly stated to physically live on earth?
2. Has sin been "put away"?
3. Is the consuming fire of Hebrews 10:27 the same as Revelation 20's fiery lake?

Because if so, then all the scriptures I have quoted help us to answer the question of this opening post: "When does sin end?"


And I will suggest sin has been put to an end, but sinfulness persists, and it will continue to persist on this side of the grave because it is only in resurrection that we are raised incorruptible and immortal.

 

[Arkycharlie]

I think your timing with Joel is off.

I've always been taught, and have viewed that passage of God pouring out his Spirit on all flesh as a pre-millennium occurrence.

In my post, I asserted that the invasion of Israel described in Joel is the same Gog-Magog invasion described in Ezekiel 38-39 and Revelation 20. And that is absolutely crucial to my answer to the OP If you disagree, then when do you assert that this invasion has or will occur?

 

[SteveB]

In my post, I asserted that the invasion of Israel described in Joel is the same Gog-Magog invasion described in Ezekiel 38-39 and Revelation 20. And that is absolutely crucial to my answer to the OP If you disagree, then when do you assert that this invasion has or will occur?

It's possible...
I'd always thought that particular invasion was the Babylonian invasion of Nebuchadnezzar.

But, there is that possibility.

We read in numerous studies of prophecy that they have a multiple stage of fulfillment.

Kind of like a near future and a distant future fulfillment. I think that's why doubters get caught up in doubting prophecy.

 

[Arkycharlie]

It's possible...
I'd always thought that particular invasion was the Babylonian invasion of Nebuchadnezzar.

But, there is that possibility.

We read in numerous studies of prophecy that they have a multiple stage of fulfillment.

Kind of like a near future and a distant future fulfillment. I think that's why doubters get caught up in doubting prophecy.

Ezekiel 36:33-36
33 ‘Thus says the Lord God, “On the day that I cleanse you from all your iniquities, I will cause the cities to be inhabited, and the waste places will be rebuilt.
34 The desolate land will be cultivated instead of being a desolation in the sight of everyone who passes by.
35 They will say, ‘This desolate land has become like the garden of Eden; and the waste, desolate and ruined cities are fortified and inhabited.’
36 Then the nations that are left round about you will know that I, the Lord, have rebuilt the ruined places and planted that which was desolate; I, the Lord, have spoken and will do it.”

This prepares the land for the Millennial Kingdom. Only God has the power to create a land comparable to the Garden of Eden, also referred to as the Garden of God.

Joel 1:
12 The vine dries up and the fig tree fails; The pomegranate, the palm also, and the apple tree. All the trees of the field dry up. Indeed, rejoicing dries up from the sons of men.
13 Gird yourselves with sackcloth and lament, O priests; Wail, O ministers of the altar! Come, spend the night in sackcloth ministers of my God. For the grain offering and the drink offering are withheld from the house of your God.
14 Consecrate a fast, Proclaim a solemn assembly; Gather he elders tand all the inhabitants of the land to the house of the Lord your God, and cry out to the Lord.

There is a functioning temple and priesthood recognized by the LORD when this invasion occurs .

Joel 2:1-3
1 Blow a trumpet in Zion, And sound an alarm on My holy mountain!
Let all the inhabitants of the land tremble, For the day of the Lord is coming; Surely it is near,
2 A day of darkness and gloom, A day of clouds and thick darkness. As the dawn is spread over the mountains,
So there is a great and mighty people; There has never been anything like it, Nor will there be again after it
To the years of many generations.
3 A fire consumes before them And behind them a flame burns.
The land is like the Garden of Eden before them But a desolate wilderness behind them,
And nothing at all escapes them.

Clearly, the only timeframe that fits these parameters is the following:

Revelation 20:
7 When the thousand years are completed, Satan will be released from his prison,
8 and will come out to deceive the nations which are in the four corners of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together for the war; the number of them is like the sand of the seashore.
9 And they came up on the broad plain of the earth and surrounded the camp of the saints and the beloved city, and fire came down from heaven and devoured them.

When Jesus returns to rule and reign for a thousand years, that is the Day of Christ. When Satan is released, that sets in motion the Day of the LORD, Gog and Magog.

Gog-Magog in Ezekiel 38-39 and in Revelation 20 is the Day of the LORD!

 

[TribulationSigns]

Let review Daniel 9:24:

Dan 9:24
(24) Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.

God said that the 70 weeks were to make an end of (seal up) sins and make reconciliation for iniquity.

The Hebrew word translated "make a end" is [chatham], which means to 'close up' something so that it is inaccessible. It's the exact same word used at the end of that verse saying, "to seal up the vision." It is illustrating that something is no longer an option, it is secured or locked that it cannot be used, read, practiced, experienced, or whatever is in view. Just as a seal that is set on a book is there so that it cannot be opened. Likewise, sin being closed up or sealed up is illustrating that sinning will no longer be an option. In these 70 weeks, it is determined that sins will be closed or sealed off, because reconciliation is made for those sins so that access has been sealed shut. In Christ they are as far as east is to west (psalms 103:12). That's how far sins have been removed from us by the work of Christ. Israel will have no sin because they are put away by the reconciliation that Christ has made at the cross. So that is WHEN! So that is the prophecy that in these 70 weeks of daniel 9, sin would be brought to an end.

Hebrews 9:26

• "...but now once in the end of the world hath He appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of Himself.

2nd Corinthians 5:18

• "And all things are of God, who hath reconciled us to Himself by Jesus Christ, and hath given to us the ministry of reconciliation.
• To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto Himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation."

"THIS" is what Daniel means by making an end of sins and that reconciliation is made for iniquity. This verse 24 of Daniel chapter 9 is clearly speaking of the Messiah's atonement for the sins of Israel, by the work of the cross. Not Second Coming. Not 1,000 years reign.

Luke 1:68-70

• "Blessed be the Lord God of Israel; for he hath visited and redeemed his people,
• And hath raised up an horn of salvation for us in the house of his servant David;
• As he spake by the mouth of his holy prophets, which have been since the world began:"

Here the prophecy is fulfilled as Daniel's people Israel has their Messiah come, that their sins would be closed up (or come to an end), and that reconciliation would be made. And that is exactly what Christ, who was Israel's Messiah, did.

Hebrews 2:17

• "Wherefore in all things it behooved Him to be made like unto His brethren, that He might be a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make reconciliation for the sins of The People."

The same as the Prophesy we read in Daniel, that Messiah would come for the reconciliation of the sins of His people. And this was fulfilled in Christ's atonement.

Look at verse 24 of Daniel chapter 9 also says the 70 weeks were determined, "to bring in everlasting righteousness." This is the effect of the work of Christ. When the sins are sealed up, and the reconciliation is made for iniquity, then everlasting righteousness is the result. For example, there is no chance those sins are going to be un-sealed or are going to return, for they were sealed in Christ who became sin for us, that we might be righteous in Him. He died with Israel's sins laid upon Him, and when He was risen, it was without them. Thus His people Israel were raised with Him, in righteousness. And that righteousness that Christ brought to them is eternal, because in Him they sin no more. This prophesied Messiah has made an end of it, making them righteous.

2nd Corinthians 5:20-21

• "..we pray you in Christ's stead, be ye reconciled in Christ.
• For He hath made Him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the Righteousness of God in Him."

The Messiah of Israel brought in everlasting righteousness and made reconciliation for iniquity, just as prophesied. And Because He has paid for ALL of their sins, His righteousness becomes their Righteousness. They are effectively clothed in the righteousness of Christ, and that righteousness brings everlasting Life (2nd cor. 9:9-10).

John 6:40

• "..that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on Him, may have everlasting life:.."

This is the everlasting righteousness that was prophesied to be brought in during these 70 weeks of daniel 9, when an end is made of sin, and reconciliation occurred. No one has any righteousness of their own (there is none righteous, no not one -Romans 3:10), but they are made the righteousness of Christ by the power of His work. Christ ushered in the everlasting righteousness daniel refers to, and Israel attains that righteousness by their faith in Him as Messiah.

Philippians 3:9

• "And be found in Him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith."

The prophecy of daniel was that Messiah the Prince would bring in everlasting righteousness for the people (congregation) of Israel, and it was unquestionably fulfilled at the cross. This already took place. Our sins were already nailed to the Cross in 33AD and we have been made righteous and reconciled IN CHRIST - the moment we were born again! Selah! Not something to wait for sin to end in the future. Selah!