WHEN does "today" in Hebrews 1:5 refer to?

Hebrews 1:5 NIV... For to which of the angels did God ever say, “You are my Son; today I have become your Father”? Or again, “I will be his Father, and he will be my Son”?

WHEN does "today" in Hebrews 1:5 refer to?

A) Jesus' birth
B) Jesus' baptism
C) Jesus' resurrection
D) Jesus' ascension
E) Jesus' second coming
F) other, please explain

I believe "today" in Hebrews 1:5 refers to the same moment as "when" in Hebrews 1:6...
F) the instant God created the supernatural and space-time of this universe

Here is an overview of what I believe...

For this creation, YHWH God (the only one who transcends all creations) determined to create a universe with a kingdom of redeemed humans (living souls) for his glory where he would reign as a living soul himself. The Scriptures describe how God would accomplish his plan. In an instant, transcendent God (called God the Father) created the supernatural and space-time of this universe and also became immanent as a spirit (called the Spirit of God) and in the form of a living soul (called the Word of God) with a glorious body. God the Father then created all things within the universe by the power of the Spirit of God commanded by the Word of God. But whereas God created a human spirit and soul for each of us, God himself as the Word became the human spirit and soul of Jesus. At his conception, Jesus' glorious body was changed to a mortal body to be made like us so he could make reconciliation for our sins. At his resurrection, Jesus' mortal body was changed back to a glorious body and he will also give each of his elect a glorious body when he returns to reign in his kingdom forever.
 
Hebrews 1:5 NIV... For to which of the angels did God ever say, “You are my Son; today I have become your Father”? Or again, “I will be his Father, and he will be my Son”?

WHEN does "today" in Hebrews 1:5 refer to?

A) Jesus' birth
B) Jesus' baptism
C) Jesus' resurrection
D) Jesus' ascension
E) Jesus' second coming
F) other, please explain

I believe "today" in Hebrews 1:5 refers to the same moment as "when" in Hebrews 1:6...
F) the instant God created the supernatural and space-time of this universe

Here is an overview of what I believe...

For this creation, YHWH God (the only one who transcends all creations) determined to create a universe with a kingdom of redeemed humans (living souls) for his glory where he would reign as a living soul himself. The Scriptures describe how God would accomplish his plan. In an instant, transcendent God (called God the Father) created the supernatural and space-time of this universe and also became immanent as a spirit (called the Spirit of God) and in the form of a living soul (called the Word of God) with a glorious body. God the Father then created all things within the universe by the power of the Spirit of God commanded by the Word of God. But whereas God created a human spirit and soul for each of us, God himself as the Word became the human spirit and soul of Jesus. At his conception, Jesus' glorious body was changed to a mortal body to be made like us so he could make reconciliation for our sins. At his resurrection, Jesus' mortal body was changed back to a glorious body and he will also give each of his elect a glorious body when he returns to reign in his kingdom forever.

The Bible explicitly tells us that it refers to Jesus' resurrection.
 
The Bible explicitly tells us that it refers to Jesus' resurrection.

So you believe...

Hebrews 1:5 refers to Jesus' resurrection, but Hebrews 1:6 refers to Jesus' ascension.


In other words...

"Today" in Hebrews 1:5 does NOT refer to the moment "when" in Hebrews 1:6.

Hebrews 1:5 NIV... For to which of the angels did God ever say, “You are my Son; today I have become your Father”? Or again, “I will be his Father, and he will be my Son”?

Hebrews 1:6 NIV... And again, when God brings his firstborn into the world, he says, “Let all God’s angels worship him.”

Correct?

The context demonstrates the answer is obviously D - when he sat down at the right hand of God.
 
So you believe...

Hebrews 1:5 refers to Jesus' resurrection, but Hebrews 1:6 refers to Jesus' ascension.


In other words...

"Today" in Hebrews 1:5 does NOT refer to the moment "when" in Hebrews 1:6.

Correct?

Incorrect. He was raised from the dead and ascended to the right hand of God.

The Scriptures tell us that Jesus was begotten out of the dead - his resurrection. That is what verse 5 is about.

Jesus Christ, the faithful witness, the firstborn out of the dead Revelation 1:5
He is the beginning, the firstborn out of the dead Colossians 1:18

30 But God raised Him from the dead; 31 and for many days He appeared to those who came up with Him from Galilee to Jerusalem, the very ones who are now His witnesses to the people. 32 And we preach to you the good news of the promise made to the fathers, 33 that God has fulfilled this promise to those of us who are the descendants by raising Jesus, just as it is also written in the second Psalm: ‘You are My son; today I have begotten You.’ 34 As for the fact that He raised Him from the dead, never again to return to decay, He has spoken in this way: ‘I will give you the holy and faithful mercies of David.’ 35 Therefore, He also says in another Psalm: ‘You will not allow Your Holy One to undergo decay.’ 36 For David, after he had served God’s purpose in his own generation, fell asleep, and was buried among his fathers and underwent decay; 37 but He whom God raised did not undergo decay. Acts 13:30-33

... having made purification of sins, He sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high, 4 having become so much better than the angels, to the extent that He has inherited a more excellent name than them. 5 For to which of the angels did He ever say, “You are My son,
today I have begotten you
”? And again, “I will be a Father to Him And He will be a Son to Me”?

Same thing.


Being the firstBORN out of the dead, he ascended to the right hand of God.

Verse 6
The Hebrews writer explicitly tells us that the "world" (oikoumene) he is talking about in verse 6 is "the world to come."
 
Incorrect. He was raised from the dead and ascended to the right hand of God.

The Scriptures tell us that Jesus was begotten out of the dead - his resurrection. That is what verse 5 is about.

You seem to be altering your answers.

So just to clarify your answers to my questions...

WHEN does "today" in Hebrews 1:5 refer to?
C) Jesus' resurrection (this was your initial answer)
D) Jesus' ascension

WHEN did God bring his firstborn into the world?
C) Jesus' resurrection
D) Jesus' ascension (this was your initial answer)

Hebrews 1:5 NIV... For to which of the angels did God ever say, “You are my Son; today I have become your Father”? Or again, “I will be his Father, and he will be my Son”?

Hebrews 1:6 NIV... And again, when God brings his firstborn into the world, he says, “Let all God’s angels worship him.”

Do you want to change either of your answers?
 
You seem to be altering your answers.

No, you are just confused again.

So just to clarify your answers to my questions...

WHEN does "today" in Hebrews 1:5 refer to?
C) Jesus' resurrection (this was your initial answer)
D) Jesus' ascension

"Today" refers to Jesus' resurrection from the dead.

WHEN did God bring his firstborn into the world?
C) Jesus' resurrection
D) Jesus' ascension (this was your initial answer)

Hebrews 1:5 NIV... For to which of the angels did God ever say, “You are my Son; today I have become your Father”? Or again, “I will be his Father, and he will be my Son”?

Hebrews 1:6 NIV... And again, when God brings his firstborn into the world, he says, “Let all God’s angels worship him.”

God brought His firstborn into the oikoumene when Jesus entered the presence of God in heaven and sat down at His right hand.

Do you want to change either of your answers?

NO.
 
No, you are just confused again.



"Today" refers to Jesus' resurrection from the dead.



God brought His firstborn into the oikoumene when Jesus entered the presence of God in heaven and sat down at His right hand.



NO.

Got it. You believe God brings his firstborn into the world at the moment when Jesus entered the presence of God in heaven.


Now I would like to know what the rest of you believe...

WHEN does "today" in Hebrews 1:5 refer to?

A) Jesus' birth
B) Jesus' baptism
C) Jesus' resurrection
D) Jesus' ascension
E) Jesus' second coming
F) other, please explain
 
Got it. You believe God brings his firstborn into the world at the moment when Jesus entered the presence of God in heaven.


Now I would like to know what the rest of you believe...

WHEN does "today" in Hebrews 1:5 refer to?

A) Jesus' birth
B) Jesus' baptism
C) Jesus' resurrection
D) Jesus' ascension
E) Jesus' second coming
F) other, please explain

Are there any TRINITARIANS who can answer the question...

WHEN does "today" in Hebrews 1:5 refer to?

A) Jesus' birth
B) Jesus' baptism
C) Jesus' resurrection
D) Jesus' ascension
E) Jesus' second coming
F) other, please explain

Hebrews 1:5 NIV... For to which of the angels did God ever say, “You are my Son; today I have become your Father”? Or again, “I will be his Father, and he will be my Son”?

Reply
 
Are there any TRINITARIANS who can answer the question...

WHEN does "today" in Hebrews 1:5 refer to?

A) Jesus' birth
B) Jesus' baptism
C) Jesus' resurrection
D) Jesus' ascension
E) Jesus' second coming
F) other, please explain

Hebrews 1:5 NIV... For to which of the angels did God ever say, “You are my Son; today I have become your Father”? Or again, “I will be his Father, and he will be my Son”?

Reply
I think I know what you are up to, I would recommend reading all of Heb 1 and not just parts.
His Father calls the Son “GOD” and is to be worshiped.

The WORD became flesh.
The WORD is God.
 

Cynthia

Member
Are there any TRINITARIANS who can answer the question...

WHEN does "today" in Hebrews 1:5 refer to?

A) Jesus' birth
B) Jesus' baptism
C) Jesus' resurrection
D) Jesus' ascension
E) Jesus' second coming
F) other, please explain

Hebrews 1:5 NIV... For to which of the angels did God ever say, “You are my Son; today I have become your Father”? Or again, “I will be his Father, and he will be my Son”?

Reply
presuming all trinitarians are in lockstep?
 

Cynthia

Member
Jesus was referred to as the Son very early. Out of Egypt I called my son. but the question was what does the term Today in Heb 1 mean.

And some meaning can be gleaned by the use of Today in Heb 3 and 4 where it is used in a moe abstract sense.
 

Kampioen

Member
Are there any TRINITARIANS who can answer the question...

WHEN does "today" in Hebrews 1:5 refer to?

A) Jesus' birth
B) Jesus' baptism
C) Jesus' resurrection
D) Jesus' ascension
E) Jesus' second coming
F) other, please explain

Hebrews 1:5 NIV... For to which of the angels did God ever say, “You are my Son; today I have become your Father”? Or again, “I will be his Father, and he will be my Son”?

Reply
I would say F, all of the above plus another.

I would say the Son was also declared to be the Son by analogy with wisdom in Prov 8:23 because of being set up/born precreation as I would say for the Word in Joh 1:1 even though God always had wisdom/the Word.

Prov 8:23 I [wisdom] was set up from everlasting, from the beginning, or ever the earth was.

The Son is distinct and equated with God's eternality:

Prov 30:4 Who hath ascended up into heaven, or descended? who hath gathered the wind in his fists? who hath bound the waters in a garment? who hath established all the ends of the earth? what is his name, and what is his son's name, if thou canst tell?
 
Hebrews 1:5 NIV... For to which of the angels did God ever say, “You are my Son; today I have become your Father”? Or again, “I will be his Father, and he will be my Son”?

WHEN does "today" in Hebrews 1:5 refer to?

A) Jesus' birth
B) Jesus' baptism
C) Jesus' resurrection
D) Jesus' ascension
E) Jesus' second coming
F) other, please explain

I believe "today" in Hebrews 1:5 refers to the same moment as "when" in Hebrews 1:6...
F) the instant God created the supernatural and space-time of this universe

Here is an overview of what I believe...

For this creation, YHWH God (the only one who transcends all creations) determined to create a universe with a kingdom of redeemed humans (living souls) for his glory where he would reign as a living soul himself. The Scriptures describe how God would accomplish his plan. In an instant, transcendent God (called God the Father) created the supernatural and space-time of this universe and also became immanent as a spirit (called the Spirit of God) and in the form of a living soul (called the Word of God) with a glorious body. God the Father then created all things within the universe by the power of the Spirit of God commanded by the Word of God. But whereas God created a human spirit and soul for each of us, God himself as the Word became the human spirit and soul of Jesus. At his conception, Jesus' glorious body was changed to a mortal body to be made like us so he could make reconciliation for our sins. At his resurrection, Jesus' mortal body was changed back to a glorious body and he will also give each of his elect a glorious body when he returns to reign in his kingdom forever.
The first day in created time that Jesus was begotten by God to be his Son was upon his birth and as per Hebrews 1:5-6 and then he was begotten again on another day in created time after he literally died as the Son of God and had to be begotten again as God's Son but this time from the dead and as per Paul in Acts 13:31-34.

I love these two passages of scripture because they prove that Jesus literally died and which also proves that he is not Almighty God like the apostate churches falsely believe.
 
I would say F, all of the above plus another.

I would say the Son was also declared to be the Son by analogy with wisdom in Prov 8:23 because of being set up/born precreation as I would say for the Word in Joh 1:1 even though God always had wisdom/the Word.

Prov 8:23 I [wisdom] was set up from everlasting, from the beginning, or ever the earth was.

The Son is distinct and equated with God's eternality:

Prov 30:4 Who hath ascended up into heaven, or descended? who hath gathered the wind in his fists? who hath bound the waters in a garment? who hath established all the ends of the earth? what is his name, and what is his son's name, if thou canst tell?

WHEN do you believe Proverbs 8:23 is referring to?

A) eternity past
B) "in the beginning" (Genesis 1:1)
C) other, please describe
 
Jesus was referred to as the Son very early. Out of Egypt I called my son. but the question was what does the term Today in Heb 1 mean.

And some meaning can be gleaned by the use of Today in Heb 3 and 4 where it is used in a moe abstract sense.

‘This is what the LORD says: “Israel is My son, My firstborn. So I said to you, ‘Let My son go so that he may serve Me
Exodus 4:22-23

When Israel was a youth I loved him, and out of Egypt I called My son.
Hosea 11:1
 
Incorrect. He was raised from the dead and ascended to the right hand of God.

The Scriptures tell us that Jesus was begotten out of the dead - his resurrection. That is what verse 5 is about.

Jesus Christ, the faithful witness, the firstborn out of the dead Revelation 1:5
He is the beginning, the firstborn out of the dead Colossians 1:18

30 But God raised Him from the dead; 31 and for many days He appeared to those who came up with Him from Galilee to Jerusalem, the very ones who are now His witnesses to the people. 32 And we preach to you the good news of the promise made to the fathers, 33 that God has fulfilled this promise to those of us who are the descendants by raising Jesus, just as it is also written in the second Psalm: ‘You are My son; today I have begotten You.’ 34 As for the fact that He raised Him from the dead, never again to return to decay, He has spoken in this way: ‘I will give you the holy and faithful mercies of David.’ 35 Therefore, He also says in another Psalm: ‘You will not allow Your Holy One to undergo decay.’ 36 For David, after he had served God’s purpose in his own generation, fell asleep, and was buried among his fathers and underwent decay; 37 but He whom God raised did not undergo decay. Acts 13:30-33

... having made purification of sins, He sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high, 4 having become so much better than the angels, to the extent that He has inherited a more excellent name than them. 5 For to which of the angels did He ever say, “You are My son,
today I have begotten you
”? And again, “I will be a Father to Him And He will be a Son to Me”?

Same thing.


Being the firstBORN out of the dead, he ascended to the right hand of God.

Verse 6
The Hebrews writer explicitly tells us that the "world" (oikoumene) he is talking about in verse 6 is "the world to come."
I would have to disagree with you on this, for what you are saying then is that when at Jesus' baptism and at his transfiguration when God very clearly called Jesus his Son in the hearing of his witnesses, he was calling him what he hadn't yet become and that doesn't even make sense.

Also in Hebrews 1:6 he says "again when he brings the firstborn into the world, he says "and let all of God's angels worship him".

Very clearly therefore Jesus was begotten on to different days of created time and the first was at his birth when God through the Holy Spirit and Mary brought the firstborn into this world and as per Hebrews 1:5-6 and then again after he had died as he Son of God and God begot him again from the dead as per Acts 13:30-34.

His being made so much better than the angels didn't have anything to do with his resurrection from the dead but rather with what God had determined for him to be instead and when Hebrews speaks of him being made lower than the angels, it has to do with his physical body being subject to death and not that he was lower than the angels concerning his position and rank with God.


Let me remind you also, that in Kingdoms where a son takes the place of his father upon the throne, the son doesn't only become the son when he takes the throne but rather when he is born as that Kings son.

Therefore, when he actually takes the throne of his father is not contingent upon who he was born to be and Jesus was born to be God's son and the King over all creation the moment he was born into the world but like all sons born to take the throne of their father, there had to be a time of maturing into that position even though they were destined for it at birth by being born the Kings son.

Son's don't earn their position as being sons but rather they are born sons and so was Jesus born to be God's human Son likewise.

From your arguments on this, I would say that you are foreverfortruth and Eusebius from the old forum, am I correct on that?
 
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Kampioen

Member
WHEN do you believe Proverbs 8:23 is referring to?

A) eternity past
B) "in the beginning" (Genesis 1:1)
C) other, please describe

I would say C, other, although it may encompass A & B.

I would say the setting up refers to wisdom (the Word/Jesus) being put to the task of creating the universe, symbolizing awakening to the creative scene ie birth. This I see is "when" God became His Father.

This is also what I see is Christ's post-birth precreation glory in Joh 17:5.

Joh 17:5 And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.

Prov 8:23 I was set up from everlasting, from the beginning, or ever the earth was.

Other than that, God always had wisdom, which I would say still parallels the Word/Christ and is why Christ in an ultimate sense was never created or came into existence.
 
I would say the setting up refers to wisdom (the Word/Jesus) being put to the task of creating the universe, symbolizing awakening to the creative scene ie birth. This I see is "when" God became His Father.

You seem to disagree with the doctrine of the Trinity that says God did NOT "become" His Father but has "always been" His Father since eternity past.

You and I seem to agree since I believe that "God became His Father" the instant God created the supernatural and space-time of this universe right before creating all things within the universe by the power of the Spirit of God commanded by the Word of God.

Here is an overview of what I believe...

For this creation, YHWH God (the only one who transcends all creations) determined to create a universe with a kingdom of redeemed humans (living souls) for his glory where he would reign as a living soul himself. The Scriptures describe how God would accomplish his plan. In an instant, transcendent God (called God the Father) created the supernatural and space-time of this universe and also became immanent as a spirit (called the Spirit of God) and in the form of a living soul (called the Word of God) with a glorious body. God the Father then created all things within the universe by the power of the Spirit of God commanded by the Word of God. But whereas God created a human spirit and soul for each of us, God himself as the Word became the human spirit and soul of Jesus. At his conception, Jesus' glorious body was changed to a mortal body to be made like us so he could make reconciliation for our sins. At his resurrection, Jesus' mortal body was changed back to a glorious body and he will also give each of his elect a glorious body when he returns to reign in his kingdom forever.
 
Got it. You believe God brings his firstborn into the world at the moment when Jesus entered the presence of God in heaven.


Now I would like to know what the rest of you believe...

WHEN does "today" in Hebrews 1:5 refer to?

A) Jesus' birth
B) Jesus' baptism
C) Jesus' resurrection
D) Jesus' ascension
E) Jesus' second coming
F) other, please explain
I can't for the life of me, see how anyone can believe that the word "world" in Hebrews 1:5-6 can refer to the "world to come" as in Hebrew 2:5.

For the author of Hebrews calls it "the world to come" and not the "world" as in Hebrews 1:5-6 and the very words "world to come" clearly reveal that it hasn't even arrived yet but is still to come in the future.


Oh for certain, the Kingdom of God which it represents, is already not yet and is overlapping the kingdoms of this world already but it is not already here in its fullness and like it will be when there will be no other world or Kingdoms but that of God alone.

Therefore "the world to come" is the restoration of God's original plan that man fell from by disobedience concerning this present world and in which Christ will be the ruler above all others except for God himself and as per Paul's words in 1 Corinthians 15:28-29.

Also, that word translated "to come" as in "the world to come" is the Greek word "mello" and which means "is presently on its way" and which means that it is not totally subjected to Jesus yet in the fullest sense of what it means.

I believe that the problem on this arose from people falsely assuming that Jesus was made so much better than the angels based on his being raised from the dead.

However, I believe that the reason he was raised from the dead was because he was made so much better than the angels by inheriting the title of "the Son of God" at his birth.

Therefore when the writer of Hebrews in 2:9 tells us that Jesus was made a little lower than the angels, he is not speaking of his position or rank with God but rather to the fact that Jesus had a body which could suffer in death and which the angels are exempt from.

For the writer even clearly reveals this as what he means right in the same verses 9 also.

So then, Jesus being begotten as God's son was not contingent upon his being resurrected first and as a matter of fact, at least two times God declared him to be his Son in whom he was well pleased before he was resurrected from the dead, once at his baptism and then again at his transfiguration.

This wouldn't make sense if he was only begotten to be the Son at his resurrection alone.
 
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Kampioen

Member
You seem to disagree with the doctrine of the Trinity that says God did NOT "become" His Father but has "always been" His Father since eternity past.

You and I seem to agree since I believe that "God became His Father" the instant God created the supernatural and space-time of this universe right before creating all things within the universe by the power of the Spirit of God commanded by the Word of God
Not correct. I did say it C (other) but also said that it encompassed A&B (eternity past and in the beginning).

I am saying the "birth" of the Word refers to being awakened to the task of creation, not that there wasn't eternally the Word. Like God was never without wisdom.

And the birth was logically previous to creation, so for us it is still eternally ago.

I am a Trinitarian but Trins don't all believe alike just like all Oneness don't believe alike.
 
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