When He comes…

civic said:
We are or we are not it’s not I’m kind of saved , kind of have eternal life , kind of righteous , He kind of atoned for sin , kind of imputed some righteousness , kind of forgave me , etc….
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I would say we are a new Creation with an Old Man; both are true. So we are kind of a New Creature; and we're kind of not a new Creature. It's a duality thing. Would you agree we're a New and Old Creature? I expect you to agree with that...

Romans 1:17 NIV; For in the gospel the righteousness of God is revealed—a righteousness that is by faith from first to last, just as it is written: “The righteous will live by faith.”

We become the Righteousness of God 'from' Faith. Do you agree?
 
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We simply don't always manifest what we have by faith until heaven, if we cooperate and bear fruit, we manifest it more and more, but Jesus' work alone is our covering.

And judgment of works will occur on the basis of chastisement and reward instead of a foundational earning righteousness and erasing sin through good works.
 
So some have lowered the biblical standards of righteous living, holy living , not being like or of the world but are making excuses for their personal sin/ lifestyle.'

Jesus teaching

Matthew 7:21
Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

Luke 6:46
Why do you call Me 'Lord, Lord,' but not do what I say?

Luke 11:28
Blessed are those who hear the word of God and obey it

John 8:31
If you hold to My teaching you are truly My disciples

John 15:14
You are My friends if you do what I command you

John 13:17
If you know these things, you will be blessed if you do them.

John 14:15
If you love Me you will keep My commandments

John the disciple whom Jesus loved teaching:

1 John 2
And by this we know that we have come to know him, if we keep his commandments. 4 Whoever says “I know him” but does not keep his commandments is a liar, and the truth is not in him, 5 but whoever keeps his word, in him truly the love of God is perfected. By this we may know that we are in him: 6 whoever says he abides in him ought to walk in the same way in which he walked.

1 John 2
Whoever says he is in the light and hates his brother is still in darkness. 10 Whoever loves his brother abides in the light, and in him[b] there is no cause for stumbling. 11 But whoever hates his brother is in the darkness and walks in the darkness, and does not know where he is going, because the darkness has blinded his eyes.

1 John 2
If you know that he is righteous, you may be sure that everyone who practices righteousness has been born of him.

1 John 3
Everyone who makes a practice of sinning also practices lawlessness; sin is lawlessness. 5 You know that he appeared in order to take away sins, and in him there is no sin. 6 No one who abides in him keeps on sinning; no one who keeps on sinning has either seen him or known him. 7 Little children, let no one deceive you. Whoever practices righteousness is righteous, as he is righteous. 8 Whoever makes a practice of sinning is of the devil, for the devil has been sinning from the beginning. The reason the Son of God appeared was to destroy the works of the devil. 9 No one born of God makes a practice of sinning, for God's[b] seed abides in him; and he cannot keep on sinning, because he has been born of God. 10 By this it is evident who are the children of God, and who are the children of the devil: whoever does not practice righteousness is not of God, nor is the one who does not love his brother.

1 John 4
If anyone says, “I love God,” and hates his brother, he is a liar; for he who does not love his brother whom he has seen cannot[a] love God whom he has not seen. 21 And this commandment we have from him: whoever loves God must also love his brother.

1 John 5
Everyone who believes that Jesus is the Christ has been born of God, and everyone who loves the Father loves whoever has been born of him. 2 By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God and obey his commandments. 3 For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments. And his commandments are not burdensome. 4 For everyone who has been born of God overcomes the world. And this is the victory that has overcome the world—our faith

hope this helps !!!
 
Well I can say definitively that no one on this entire forum has ever met the standard of Christ's love towards me, so if that is the standard for heaven, no one here is making it. And I'm not saying that's impossible. But I do believe the commandments to live holy are not to fill ourselves with deluded feelings we are holier than we really are. nor to ever earn the foundational standing that Christ alone could earn for us and we cannot. Sin still has consequences. I use to think heaven was all gravy, but I now know the judgments for Christians who make it to heaven will be far more severe than most are reckoning on, and that's on top of loss of rewards. Although one's actions cannot achieve the righteousness needed for heaven, it is clear we can sin so highhandedly and grievously that we lose salvation—not because it wasn't paid for, but because Christ deems us outside his covenant. I think this view balances out the Bible's warnings and call for holiness as a truly serious thing, but still not make it a grounds for self-justification and self-righteousness, whereby we add the merit of our works to Christ's work.
 
ReverendRV said:
Why do you say that? 'in a way', we HAVE become the Righteousness of God...
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I believe we’re in agreement? We have received Christ’s righteousness. We are justified by faith. Because of what Christ has dine for us, God looks on use with grace and mercy.
Col 3:1 If then you have been raised with Christ, seek the things that are above, where Christ is, seated at the right hand of God.

And as you said we carry the old man with us throughout our life here on earth. The old man with a law of sin.
And this is why we wrestle against the flesh. Which I might add is a good thing, because if we were not raidsed with Christ unto new life, we wouldn’t struggle with sin.
I think God leaves everyone with a thorn in the flesh for humbling. Think about if He didn’t what kind of people we would be here on earth- proud for one.

God knows who we are, though we are covered with Christ’s blood.

Col 3,
Put to death therefore what is earthly in you: sexual immorality, impurity, passion, evil desire, and covetousness, which is idolatry. On account of these the wrath of God is coming. In these you too once walked, when you were living in them.

Through sanctification by the Spirit (which is monergistic) we are able to bear good fruit
 
Carbon said:
I believe we’re in agreement? We have received Christ’s righteousness. We are justified by faith. Because of what Christ has dine for us, God looks on use with grace and mercy.
Col 3:1 If then you have been raised with Christ, seek the things that are above, where Christ is, seated at the right hand of God.

And as you said we carry the old man with us throughout our life here on earth. The old man with a law of sin.
And this is why we wrestle against the flesh. Which I might add is a good thing, because if we were not raidsed with Christ unto new life, we wouldn’t struggle with sin.
I think God leaves everyone with a thorn in the flesh for humbling. Think about if He didn’t what kind of people we would be here on earth- proud for one.

God knows who we are, though we are covered with Christ’s blood.

Col 3,
Put to death therefore what is earthly in you: sexual immorality, impurity, passion, evil desire, and covetousness, which is idolatry. On account of these the wrath of God is coming. In these you too once walked, when you were living in them.

Through sanctification by the Spirit (which is monergistic) we are able to bear good fruit
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If sanctification was monergistic you would not sin. Its why Jesus commands us to deny yourself, take up your cross daily and follow Him. Self denial- we are to put away (our responsibility ) the deeds of the flesh. God doesn't do that for us. Obedience is our responsibility.

hope this helps !!!
 
Dizerner said:
Well I can say definitively that no one on this entire forum has ever met the standard of Christ's love towards me, so if that is the standard for heaven, no one here is making it. And I'm not saying that's impossible. But I do believe the commandments to live holy are not to fill ourselves with deluded feelings we are holier than we really are. nor to ever earn the foundational standing that Christ alone could earn for us and we cannot. Sin still has consequences. I use to think heaven was all gravy, but I now know the judgments for Christians who make it to heaven will be far more severe than most are reckoning on, and that's on top of loss of rewards. Although one's actions cannot achieve the righteousness needed for heaven, it is clear we can sin so highhandedly and grievously that we lose salvation—not because it wasn't paid for, but because Christ deems us outside his covenant. I think this view balances out the Bible's warnings and call for holiness as a truly serious thing, but still not make it a grounds for self-justification and self-righteousness, whereby we add the merit of our works to Christ's work.
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It was never in your hands to gain salvation, it’s never in your hands to loose it.
Your stance must believe God is not able to complete what He has started in you. Where does scripture teach it is up to you?

The Spirit does His sanctifying work in the believers life and eventually he will be sinless and perfect. It’s an imperishable seed.

If someone is living a life of sin, don’t you think that maybe he was never saved in the first place?
 
Carbon said:
I believe we’re in agreement? We have received Christ’s righteousness. We are justified by faith. Because of what Christ has dine for us, God looks on use with grace and mercy.
Col 3:1 If then you have been raised with Christ, seek the things that are above, where Christ is, seated at the right hand of God.

And as you said we carry the old man with us throughout our life here on earth. The old man with a law of sin.
And this is why we wrestle against the flesh. Which I might add is a good thing, because if we were not raidsed with Christ unto new life, we wouldn’t struggle with sin.
I think God leaves everyone with a thorn in the flesh for humbling. Think about if He didn’t what kind of people we would be here on earth- proud for one.

God knows who we are, though we are covered with Christ’s blood.

Col 3,
Put to death therefore what is earthly in you: sexual immorality, impurity, passion, evil desire, and covetousness, which is idolatry. On account of these the wrath of God is coming. In these you too once walked, when you were living in them.

Through sanctification by the Spirit (which is monergistic) we are able to bear good fruit
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Dorian Gray ~ by Reverend RV​

Ephesians 4:22 KJV; That ye put off concerning the former conversation the old man, which is corrupt according to the deceitful lusts;

Have you ever wondered why a Christian may not seem to behave very much different than you? The Bible says that the Christian should be Conformed into the image of Jesus, but often it appears that the believer is more conformed to the image of the World. The Apostle Paul was very concerned about this, even in his own person. Paul said that when he did the bad things he didn’t want to do, it was remaining Sin within him that did it. As we can see, Paul would go on to give this remaining Sin a proper name; the ‘Old Man’. The reason I decided to write this Gospel Tract is because I have just been diagnosed with Diabetes. The old Man within me has led me to this through Gluttony, but when I confessed this in Church I told them that my identity would not be Brother Miller the Diabetic; the Old Man inside me is the Diabetic. This brought to my Mind an image of what the Old Man must look like; a degenerate, diseased, cowering old man…

In the story called ‘The Picture of Dorian Gray’, we see a similar portrait of the Old Man. The Novel tells of a young man named Dorian Gray, the subject of a painting by artist Basil Hallward. Basil is very impressed by Dorian's beauty and becomes infatuated with him, thinking his beauty is responsible for a new mode in his art. Dorian meets Lord Henry Wotton, a friend of Basil, and becomes enthralled by Lord Henry's world view. Espousing a new Hedonism, Henry suggests the only things worth pursuing in life are beauty and fulfilment of the senses. Realizing that one day his beauty will fade, Dorian expresses a desire to sell his Soul to ensure the portrait Basil painted would age rather than he. Dorian's wish is fulfilled, and when he subsequently pursues a life of Debauchery, the portrait serves as a reminder of the effect each act had upon his Soul. Each Sin displayed as a disfigurement of his form, or through a sign of aging. ~ No wonder the Christian can seem no different than the world; but in saying this we find out the true condition of the World. Have you ever told a Lie? What does your portrait look like? Have you also lived the Life of Hedonism? Perhaps you clean up well but inside you are full of dead mans bones! The bad news is that in your heart, you are the Old Man; there is no New Man within to wrestle against the Old Man. If God judged you, would you be innocent? Or will you be guilty and Hellbound?

Dorian Gray grew to hate the Old Man inside the portrait. He had a good idea when he tried to clean up his act; but it was all in vain; his portrait still continued to age. Dorian stabbed the portrait with a knife; another good idea but he used the wrong weapon. Dorian aged and died in his Sins, and the portrait returned to its youthful appearance. ~ The only instrument which can save us from our Old Man is the nail of a Cross. Jesus is the GodMan who was born of a Virgin and lived a perfect life which pleased God his Father. There is no Remission of Sin without the shedding of blood. Jesus died on the Cross as the sacrifice for the Sin of the world; appeasing the wrath of God. Have Faith in Jesus Christ who arose from the grave and ascended to Heaven. Your old man will remain, but he will be nailed to the Cross of Christ. When God looks at your portrait, in its frame he will see Jesus Christ in you; the hope of eternal Life. Don’t wait until it’s too late and the only ‘poor trait’ God can see in your frame is the portrait of your Old Man…

Romans 6:6 KJV; Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.
 
civic said:
If sanctification was monergistic you would not sin.
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Really? Did I say sanctified? No! There will come a time when we won’t sin anymore, but not yet.

I know you believe sanctification is synergistic. God’s work of salvation in regeneration is monergistic, then he hands it back over to you?
Or God helps you along?
But sanctification is part of salvation and all of salvation is of the Lord. The only reason you desire to do good is because of the Spirit in you and He continues to work.
civic said:
Its why Jesus commands us to deny yourself, take up your cross daily and follow Him. Self denial- we are to put away (our responsibility ) the deeds of the flesh. God doesn't do that for us. Obedience is our responsibility.
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He tell us because now we believers are able to. Though we still wrestle against the flesh.
The Lord Jesus became incarnate, and died as much for the sanctification as for the pardon and justification of his church. Just as much for the deliverance from the indwelling power of sin as the condemning power of sin.
civic said:
hope this helps !!!
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No, I disagree.

hope this helps
 
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Carbon said:
Really? Did I say sanctified? No! There will come a time when we won’t sin anymore, but not yet.

I know you believe sanctification is synergistic. God’s work of salvation in regeneration is monergistic, then he hands it back over to you?
Or God helps you along?
But sanctification is part of salvation and all of salvation is of the Lord. The only reason you desire to do good is because of the Spirit in you and He continues to work.

He tell us because now we believers are able to. Though we still wrestle against the flesh.
The Lord Jesus became incarnate, and died as much for the sanctification as for the pardon and justification of his church. Just as much for the deliverance from the indwelling power of sin as the condemning power of sin.

No, I disagree.

hope this helps
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Who runs this race in the Christian life ? you or God

Who obeys God/Jesus/Apostles commands ? you or God

Who sins ? you or God

Who believes ? you or God

I provided plenty of Scriptures from Jesus and the Apostles with the PERSONAL PRONOUNS for the believers requiring obedience.

Do you deny your own personal responsibility to obey Christ ?

next.......
 
civic said:
Who runs this race in the Christian life ? you or God

Who obeys God/Jesus/Apostles commands ? you or God

Who sins ? you or God

Who believes ? you or God

I provided plenty of Scriptures from Jesus and the Apostles with the PERSONAL PRONOUNS for the believers requiring obedience.
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?
civic said:
Do you deny your own personal responsibility to obey Christ ?

next.......
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No civic I do not deny my personal responsibility.
My desire is for Christ and to live a holy life.
The Spirit works in believers building us up in Christ, it is His monergistic work which causes us to bear fruit of the spirit.

You desire to have some credit, just a little part of the glory in salvation.

Your questioner above is not scripture, it’s just your personal reasoning.
We can talk more on this later if you would like.
 
Carbon said:
?

No civic I do not deny my personal responsibility.
My desire is for Christ and to live a holy life.
The Spirit works in believers building us up in Christ, it is His monergistic work which causes us to bear fruit of the spirit.

You desire to have some credit, just a little part of the glory in salvation.

Your questioner above is not scripture, it’s just your personal reasoning.
We can talk more on this later if you would like.
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If you do not willingly submit to Christ there cannot be any fruit produced . That only comes after denying oneself and following Him.

What does pruning mean to you in the teaching of Jesus in John 15 and abiding in the vine ?
 
civic said:
If you do not willingly submit to Christ there cannot be any fruit produced . That only comes after denying oneself and following Him.
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I agree. ?
But we deny ourselves because we become more aware of ourselves (sin) and our dependence on Christ. Do you agree?
This is also the work of the Spirit.
civic said:
What does pruning mean to you in the teaching of Jesus in John 15 and abiding in the vine ?
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I see your point.
Where do you think we are failing to connect here exactly?
If there a particular point?
I don’t want to misunderstand you.
 
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