When They Tell You What Underwear to Use - You Know You're in a Cult:

Good, read the Bible folks, because that is how the true Jesus Christ "gets" you, for eternal life in heaven. He saves us, not on account of works which we have done in righteousness, but on account of His MERCY. Jesus loves us so much, He went to the cross for us, suffering all the pangs of hell, so we would never have to!

So, by all means, readers, reject the BoM--and let our great and loving God and Savior, Jesus Christ "get you" through the reading of the Bible. For it alone has the truth!
Seems Bonnie is not interested in what is in the BOM, but more interested in finding fault without reading the whole Book, very interesting concept. Find all the supposed faults others sources point to and just believe them versus actually reading it and finding your own faults or maybe even find the truths of the BoM... hmm!
 
Seems Bonnie is not interested in what is in the BOM, but more interested in finding fault without reading the whole Book, very interesting concept. Find all the supposed faults others sources point to and just believe them versus actually reading it and finding your own faults or maybe even find the truths of the BoM... hmm!

If I'm reading a scientific paper, and in the first paragraph I find 8 factual errors, I will probably not waste my time reading any further, having concluded that the paper is worthless.

With the BoM it's even worse, since the presence of errors demonstrates that the BoM is NOT from God.
 
If I'm reading a scientific paper, and in the first paragraph I find 8 factual errors, I will probably not waste my time reading any further, having concluded that the paper is worthless.

With the BoM it's even worse, since the presence of errors demonstrates that the BoM is NOT from God.
Hmm, yea right! So to know your enemy is to do what? Oh, that's right, go to the source that is not a member of the Church, or someone who read the BOM and gave their opinion and you guys without and research just cry and complain about how bad the BOM is, and can do this by reading the first paragraph... oh my!
 
Good, read the Bible folks, because that is how the true Jesus Christ "gets" you, for eternal life in heaven. He saves us, not on account of works which we have done in righteousness, but on account of His MERCY. Jesus loves us so much, He went to the cross for us, suffering all the pangs of hell, so we would never have to!

So, by all means, readers, reject the BoM--and let our great and loving God and Savior, Jesus Christ "get you" through the reading of the Bible. For it alone has the truth!
I was unable to read it from cover to cover. It has an animosity towards Christianity which made me cringe. And the D&C likewise did not seem to come from God (because it isn't). Yet I gave Mormonism and God years to convince me of truth..
 
Seems Bonnie is not interested in what is in the BOM, but more interested in finding fault without reading the whole Book, very interesting concept. Find all the supposed faults others sources point to and just believe them versus actually reading it and finding your own faults or maybe even find the truths of the BoM... hmm!
I have read parts of the BoM and find it loaded with errors--unlike the Bible.

No one needs the BoM to find salvation. It is nothing but a very long, rather boring piece of pious fiction. If anyone wants to find the truth about God, Jesus Christ, and eternal life, he or she need look no farther than the Holy Bible.
 
Hmm, yea right! So to know your enemy is to do what? Oh, that's right, go to the source that is not a member of the Church, or someone who read the BOM and gave their opinion and you guys without and research just cry and complain about how bad the BOM is, and can do this by reading the first paragraph... oh my!
I have read a lot more than the first paragraph...We have researched the BoM for YEARS, and have had plenty of threads about it in the 11 years I have been on here. LOTS of discussion about it! And I did plenty of research on it, as did others on here.

So, you are once again incorrect.
 
I was unable to read it from cover to cover. It has an animosity towards Christianity which made me cringe. And the D&C likewise did not seem to come from God (because it isn't). Yet I gave Mormonism and God years to convince me of truth..
Years to "convince" you? That's not a very impressive resume. Why should I think you're convinced about your current endeavor? I mean, if you gave it years. Is truth really that difficult?

I don't want to belabor the obvious here, but knowing something isn't true shouldn't take much convincing and it certainly shouldn't take years. The pot of boiling water is hot is a truth that shouldn't take that long to be convinced.

You might not like it, but the scriptures are very very clear on this one point. If you don't keep the commandments, you won't be saved. It doesn't matter what religion you belong to. It isn't the religion that saves you. It's what you do. Jesus expressed it in these terms, if you would have eternal life, keep the commandments. Do that and join whatever church you want and you'll be fine.

I don't need to believe what you believe. I just need to keep the commandments.
 
I understand just fine. But the bottom line is, Mormons must EARN eternal life by obedience to your church's laws and regulations--such as doing temple works, keeping the WoW, etc. Where are these taught in the NT church in Acts?
Interesting when I give direct evidence, and you simply declare of your own accord that Mormons must believe what you say we do
And btw--quoting the BoM is useless and means nothing to me. It is not from God. If you want me to believe something, quote the Bible, and in context. Gotta go.
What the Book of Mormon means to you is irrelevant. I stated the fact, the Book of Mormon, part of our Standard Works is the evidence. Your claims on "Mormons must EARN eternal life" is wrong.
I am back. Oooff! I called NO ONE a fool on here. So, please do not make unfounded accusations.
So who exactly is "foolish" then. And who believes "foolish" beliefs? Hmmm???
 
Interesting when I give direct evidence, and you simply declare of your own accord that Mormons must believe what you say we do

What the Book of Mormon means to you is irrelevant. I stated the fact, the Book of Mormon, part of our Standard Works is the evidence. Your claims on "Mormons must EARN eternal life" is wrong.
You are deceived. Not only was it taught by several Mormon leaders, the fact that your religion still teaches it, proves that Bonnie is NOT wrong!

Some Mormons (many in fact) have not earned temple recommends.

Mormonism:
We believe that through the Atonement of Christ, all mankind may be saved, by obedience to the laws and ordinances of the Gospel.

When a person is hired to do a job, he only receives a paycheck if he earns it by doing the work expected of him. Some jobs require more training than others. It is the same in Mormonism.

"Here on earth we are often judged as to our worthiness to receive opportunities within the kingdom of God. When we are baptized we are judged worthy to receive this ordinance. When we are called to serve in the Church or interviewed for a priesthood advancement or a temple recommend, we are judged."
- Gospel Principles, Chapter 46, p.

"In Doctrine and Covenants 76, the Lord described the ways we can choose to live our mortal lives. He explained that our choices will determine which kingdom we are prepared for. We learn from the revelation that even members of the Church will inherit different kingdoms because they will not be equally faithful and valiant in their obedience to Christ."
-Gospel Principles, p. 271

President Spencer W. Kimball said, “For observing the Word of Wisdom the reward is life, not only prolonged mortal life but life eternal” (The Miracle of Forgiveness [1969], 211).


. . . in 1919, the First Presidency under President Heber J. Grant made observing the Word of Wisdom a requirement for receiving a temple recommend. That year, the First Presidency sent a letter to mission presidents saying that “letters of recommendation should be given only to those who have been members of the Church at least a year, and in good standing for one year prior to giving the recommend. It must be known that they keep the Word of Wisdom, pay their tithing and otherwise are good members. Each letter of recommendation should specify what particular blessing the person is recommended to receive.”

Marion G. Romney taught:

Paul’s statement, “By grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast” (Eph. 2:8–9), has been misunderstood. Some have interpreted it to mean that works are not necessary. This is an erroneous conclusion.

The truth is that we are saved by grace only after all we ourselves can do. (See 2 Ne. 25:23.) There will be no government dole which can get us through the pearly gates. Nor will anybody go into the celestial kingdom who wants to go there on the works of someone else. Every man must go through on his own merits. We might just as well learn this here and now.
 
Last edited:
Years to "convince" you? That's not a very impressive resume. Why should I think you're convinced about your current endeavor? I mean, if you gave it years. Is truth really that difficult?

I don't want to belabor the obvious here, but knowing something isn't true shouldn't take much convincing and it certainly shouldn't take years. The pot of boiling water is hot is a truth that shouldn't take that long to be convinced.

You might not like it, but the scriptures are very very clear on this one point. If you don't keep the commandments, you won't be saved. It doesn't matter what religion you belong to. It isn't the religion that saves you. It's what you do. Jesus expressed it in these terms, if you would have eternal life, keep the commandments. Do that and join whatever church you want and you'll be fine.

I don't need to believe what you believe. I just need to keep the commandments.
I am grateful that the Lord eventually convinced me that obedience to Mormonism was a dreadful hoax! I'm not saved by joining ANY church. JESUS saves. Mormonism isn't true and millions of members live to their seventies, eighties, and possibly nineties and never find out. The same with atheists and other sinners. I'm sorry you don't know Jesus.

For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many.
Matthew 24:5
 
Last edited:
You are deceived. Not only was it taught by several Mormon leaders, the fact that your religion still teaches it, proves that Bonnie is NOT wrong!

Some Mormons (many in fact) have not earned temple recommends.

Mormonism:
We believe that through the Atonement of Christ, all mankind may be saved, by obedience to the laws and ordinances of the Gospel.

When a person is hired to do a job, he only receives a paycheck if he earns it by doing the work expected of him. Some jobs require more training than others. It is the same in Mormonism.

"Here on earth we are often judged as to our worthiness to receive opportunities within the kingdom of God. When we are baptized we are judged worthy to receive this ordinance. When we are called to serve in the Church or interviewed for a priesthood advancement or a temple recommend, we are judged."
- Gospel Principles, Chapter 46, p.

"In Doctrine and Covenants 76, the Lord described the ways we can choose to live our mortal lives. He explained that our choices will determine which kingdom we are prepared for. We learn from the revelation that even members of the Church will inherit different kingdoms because they will not be equally faithful and valiant in their obedience to Christ."
-Gospel Principles, p. 271

President Spencer W. Kimball said, “For observing the Word of Wisdom the reward is life, not only prolonged mortal life but life eternal” (The Miracle of Forgiveness [1969], 211).


. . . in 1919, the First Presidency under President Heber J. Grant made observing the Word of Wisdom a requirement for receiving a temple recommend. That year, the First Presidency sent a letter to mission presidents saying that “letters of recommendation should be given only to those who have been members of the Church at least a year, and in good standing for one year prior to giving the recommend. It must be known that they keep the Word of Wisdom, pay their tithing and otherwise are good members. Each letter of recommendation should specify what particular blessing the person is recommended to receive.”

Marion G. Romney taught:

Paul’s statement, “By grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast” (Eph. 2:8–9), has been misunderstood. Some have interpreted it to mean that works are not necessary. This is an erroneous conclusion.

The truth is that we are saved by grace only after all we ourselves can do. (See 2 Ne. 25:23.) There will be no government dole which can get us through the pearly gates. Nor will anybody go into the celestial kingdom who wants to go there on the works of someone else. Every man must go through on his own merits. We might just as well learn this here and now.
You are deceived. Not only was it taught by several Mormon leaders, the fact that your religion still teaches it, proves that Bonnie is NOT wrong!

Some Mormons (many in fact) have not earned temple recommends.

Mormonism:
We believe that through the Atonement of Christ, all mankind may be saved, by obedience to the laws and ordinances of the Gospel.

When a person is hired to do a job, he only receives a paycheck if he earns it by doing the work expected of him. Some jobs require more training than others. It is the same in Mormonism.

"Here on earth we are often judged as to our worthiness to receive opportunities within the kingdom of God. When we are baptized we are judged worthy to receive this ordinance. When we are called to serve in the Church or interviewed for a priesthood advancement or a temple recommend, we are judged."
- Gospel Principles, Chapter 46, p.

"In Doctrine and Covenants 76, the Lord described the ways we can choose to live our mortal lives. He explained that our choices will determine which kingdom we are prepared for. We learn from the revelation that even members of the Church will inherit different kingdoms because they will not be equally faithful and valiant in their obedience to Christ."
-Gospel Principles, p. 271

President Spencer W. Kimball said, “For observing the Word of Wisdom the reward is life, not only prolonged mortal life but life eternal” (The Miracle of Forgiveness [1969], 211).


. . . in 1919, the First Presidency under President Heber J. Grant made observing the Word of Wisdom a requirement for receiving a temple recommend. That year, the First Presidency sent a letter to mission presidents saying that “letters of recommendation should be given only to those who have been members of the Church at least a year, and in good standing for one year prior to giving the recommend. It must be known that they keep the Word of Wisdom, pay their tithing and otherwise are good members. Each letter of recommendation should specify what particular blessing the person is recommended to receive.”

Marion G. Romney taught:

Paul’s statement, “By grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast” (Eph. 2:8–9), has been misunderstood. Some have interpreted it to mean that works are not necessary. This is an erroneous conclusion.

The truth is that we are saved by grace only after all we ourselves can do. (See 2 Ne. 25:23.) There will be no government dole which can get us through the pearly gates. Nor will anybody go into the celestial kingdom who wants to go there on the works of someone else. Every man must go through on his own merits. We might just as well learn this here and now.
I've already ran the numbers. You're view, and argument is biased. https://forums.carm.org/threads/by-the-numbers-earning-in-conference-addresses.12892/
 
Interesting when I give direct evidence, and you simply declare of your own accord that Mormons must believe what you say we do
But it is true--Mormons must earn eternal life by obedience to Mormon laws/rules, etc. Such as tithing so they can be worthy to get into your temples, and perform the ordinances done therein--and keep all of the covenants they make therein, like obeying the WoW, wearing their temple undergarments the rest of their lives, fulfilling their callings, etc. And keeping a temple recommend for the rest of one's life. That is not eternal life by grace through faith in Christ Jesus our Lord.
What the Book of Mormon means to you is irrelevant. I stated the fact, the Book of Mormon, part of our Standard Works is the evidence. Your claims on "Mormons must EARN eternal life" is wrong.

No, it is not. IF the BoM and Bible were the LDS church's only Standard Works, you might have a leg to stand on. But alas, your church also has the D and C and the Pearl books.

The following contrasts the true God of the Bible with what your church leaders have taught about their god/gods. It has quotes from Mormon leaders in it, and also from JS himself, and BYoung on this:


Christ. However, to inherit eternal life requires our “obedience to the laws and ordinances of the Gospel” (Articles of Faith 1:3).
So who exactly is "foolish" then. And who believes "foolish" beliefs? Hmmm???
Mormons. They believe that their god was first a man on "an earth" who had to learn how to become a god, and that we all must learn how to become gods, ourselves, as all other gods before us had done. They believe that Jesus and Satan are actual brothers in the supposed pre-mortal existence. They believe that their god lives near a star named "Kolob". Their god is a limited being, of the same "species" as we are, just more "advanced." The Mormon god does not fill the heavens and the earth, as the true God of the Bible does.

They also believe that Father, Son, and HG are three separate gods, thus making themselves polytheists. Smith himself taught this, in direct contradiction to what he wrote in the BoM, which is strictly monotheistic.


This link shows how different is the Mormon god from the true God of the Bible. The article concludes:

There is probably no greater sin than to place your trust in a God whose attributes do not match those of the God of the Bible. The biblical term for such a sin is idolatry. The fact that Joseph Smith failed to represent the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob proves that he was not a true prophet. God warned the children of Israel that if any arose and attempted to entice Israel to “go after other gods” he was to be put to death (Deuteronomy 13:1-3, 5). Do you think He takes this any less serious today? To insist on following the God of the Mormon Church will result in spiritual death, a painful separation from the Creator for all eternity. The stakes are too high to trust in any other. Our prayer for all Latter-day Saints is that they see how they have been deceived by Joseph Smith and the “prophets and apostles” who followed him and ultimately place their trust in the God who has been changing lives for centuries, the God of the Bible.
 
I am grateful that the Lord eventually convinced me that obedience to Mormonism was a dreadful hoax!
The hoax has been perpetrated on the masses ever since the apostles died and no more were called in their place. It started the dark ages and within that darkness a light appeared and the darkness could not comprehend it. That light is the restored Gospel.

Just because you believe it to be a hoax, doesn't make it so. The evidence, from my perspective, tells me that the hoax is finally been exposed. The true Gospel of Jesus Christ is again found on the earth. If you believe the Bible then it's not hard to find it. God is not a being who creates things out of nothing. He creates things from existing materials just like everyone else. He did not live in a place that did not exist until he created it. He lived in space and time just like we all have. In space and time, there is no beginning and there is no ending. It goes on forever. That means that there are places that God hasn't been (shocker, I know - one of those places was this one that we now live in. When he found it, according to the scriptures it was void and without form and the first thing He did was bring His light (Let there be light). IOW, God didn't create space and time. He has always existed in it because it has always existed.

All things created must eventually deteriorate. Created things have a beginning and an ending but the materials used to create them do not have a beginning or an ending. They simply change form. Our bodies will eventually end in dust, but what becomes of the dust? Water evaporates and we can't see it, but it didn't disappear. It changed form and will reconstitute in the form of, get this, water. We even know how to make that happen. (We must be gods, having such knowledge.) We can draw water from the air, but; of course, we have to have water before we can do that. It's called science and for all the knowledge we have, no one has ever figured out how to really make something that exists, no longer exist.

If God could do that, why hasn't he? Why burn people forever? Why not just make things he created be uncreated? The level of make-believe that false religions foster is endemic.

God didn't create us. He formed us/organized us. That work will go on in other worlds exactly as it has been going on here. It is a perfect plan. It is God's plan. It will go on forever.

If you don't want to accept it that it's not going to change it. If you're willing to settle for less, God has a plan where you'll be happy. It won't be hell even if you believe that it will be, it won't. That's another thing that makes no sense. God's justice system has only two outcomes. ? One would think that his system would be better than ours, not worse.
 
But it is true--Mormons must earn eternal life by obedience to Mormon laws/rules, etc. Such as tithing so they can be worthy to get into your temples, and perform the ordinances done therein--and keep all of the covenants they make therein, like obeying the WoW, wearing their temple undergarments the rest of their lives, fulfilling their callings, etc. And keeping a temple recommend for the rest of one's life. That is not eternal life by grace through faith in Christ Jesus our Lord.
No, Eternal Life is the greatest gift of God, and it is received through the grace of Jesus Christ.
"It is...through the grace of the Lord that individuals, through faith in the Atonement of Jesus Christ and repentance of their sins, receive strength and assistance to do good works that they otherwise would not be able to maintain if left to their own means." (LDS Bible Dictionary:Grace)
Moreover, Abraham was commanded to walk perfectly before God. (Gen. 17:1) Are you claiming Christians can do nothing and still obtain eternal life? Do you begrudge tithing, church callings, and/or treating your body as a temple? What do you love more than God that would prevent you from receiving Eternal Life?

No, it is not. IF the BoM and Bible were the LDS church's only Standard Works, you might have a leg to stand on. But alas, your church also has the D and C and the Pearl books.
And what verse in the D&C or Pearl of Great Price states Eternal Life is earned?

The following contrasts the true God of the Bible with what your church leaders have taught about their god/gods. It has quotes from Mormon leaders in it, and also from JS himself, and BYoung on this:

Yes, in that article it says: "Like immortality, this gift is made possible through the Atonement of Jesus Christ." It also says eternal life is inherited. Why is the atonement needed if we can simply earn it?
Is it because obedience is necessary that you disagree with it? Do you believe a willful disobedient person can inherit eternal life?

Ah, so Mormons are foolish but not fools? How does that make sense?
They believe that their god was first a man on "an earth" who had to learn how to become a god, and that we all must learn how to become gods, ourselves, as all other gods before us had done. They believe that Jesus and Satan are actual brothers in the supposed pre-mortal existence. They believe that their god lives near a star named "Kolob". Their god is a limited being, of the same "species" as we are, just more "advanced." The Mormon god does not fill the heavens and the earth, as the true God of the Bible does.

They also believe that Father, Son, and HG are three separate gods, thus making themselves polytheists. Smith himself taught this, in direct contradiction to what he wrote in the BoM, which is strictly monotheistic.
Like clockwork. Deferring to the same tired arguments, over and over. Can you just post this in your signature, or create a post and link to it so we can some getting to this redundant attack?

This link shows how different is the Mormon god from the true God of the Bible. The article concludes:
The article is a strawmen argument, just as most anti-mormon arguments are.
 
You are deceived. Not only was it taught by several Mormon leaders, the fact that your religion still teaches it, proves that Bonnie is NOT wrong!
Your view of what we believe is wrong. No one can earn eternal life. At the same time, not one can be saved except they follow Christ. It is through His grace that we may obtain eternal.life, but in order to obtain His grace, we must follow him. That is all we can do. If that earns eternal life, then so be it. But it appears that your view of our beliefs is that we will not need Christ.

I believe you know that we don't believe that we can obtain eternal life through our own merit. Such an idea is absurd. But the deception in the propaganda our critics push, without saying it directly alludes to the idea. It is false and devious.

We believe that we must keep the commandments. Anyone who teaches that salvation can be obtained in any other way teaches heresies. In the early days, the path to salvation was called the way. Those that followed it would be saved, those that didn't couldn't be saved. The way is to follow the teachings of Jesus Christ. It is what we do, not what we believe that matters. Ask Cornelius. He followed the way and was saved and he was not so much as even taught the way before he followed it.
 
No, Eternal Life is the greatest gift of God, and it is received through the grace of Jesus Christ.
"It is...through the grace of the Lord that individuals, through faith in the Atonement of Jesus Christ and repentance of their sins, receive strength and assistance to do good works that they otherwise would not be able to maintain if left to their own means." (LDS Bible Dictionary:Grace)

Why didn't you quote the REST of this definition, Aaron? This is one definition of grace, but in the Bible, "grace" mostly means "God's UNdeserved love/favor." NOT just the ability to do something. So, this definition is wrong. Here is the entire thing, in context:

A word that occurs frequently in the New Testament, especially in the writings of Paul. The main idea of the word is divine means of help or strength, given through the bounteous mercy and love of Jesus Christ.

It is through the grace of the Lord Jesus, made possible by His atoning sacrifice, that mankind will be raised in immortality, every person receiving his body from the grave in a condition of everlasting life. It is likewise through the grace of the Lord that individuals, through faith in the Atonement of Jesus Christ and repentance of their sins, receive strength and assistance to do good works that they otherwise would not be able to maintain if left to their own means. This grace is an enabling power that allows men and women to lay hold on eternal life and exaltation after they have expended their own best efforts.

Divine grace is needed by every soul in consequence of the Fall of Adam and also because of man’s weaknesses and shortcomings. However, grace cannot suffice without total effort on the part of the recipient. Hence the explanation, “It is by grace that we are saved, after all we can do” (2 Ne. 25:23). It is truly the grace of Jesus Christ that makes salvation possible. This principle is expressed in Jesus’ parable of the vine and the branches (John 15:1–11). See also John 1:12–17; Eph. 2:8–9; Philip. 4:13; D&C 93:11–14.




See the bolded stuff? This makes grace a payment for our efforts.


Moreover, Abraham was commanded to walk perfectly before God. (Gen. 17:1)

He was able to do so because he had faith in God and his promises. But we know that Abraham was far from perfect. But because of his great faith, God declared him righteous. His faith was counted as righteousness. Read Genesis 15.
Are you claiming Christians can do nothing and still obtain eternal life? Do you begrudge tithing, church callings, and/or treating your body as a temple? What do you love more than God that would prevent you from receiving Eternal Life?

We can do nothing to MERIT eternal life. We are utterly helpless to do so. We are, by nature, children of wrath, as Eph. 2 says--NOT "children of God."

Your church piles on things its members must "do" to earn eternal life in the CK and godhood, like temple works. Mormons do the things you list in order to GET eternal life. But true Christians born again by the Spirit gladly support their churches, treat their bodies with respect, love their fellow man, etc. BECAUSE they are ALREADY SAVED. In other words, they do what is pleasing to God BECAUSE they are saved, not to GET saved. Doing it for the latter reason is selfish and there is no love in selfishness--is there?
And what verse in the D&C or Pearl of Great Price states Eternal Life is earned?

I don't know, but eternal life is discussed here on your church's website:


"However, to inherit eternal life requires our “obedience to the laws and ordinances of the Gospel” (Articles of Faith 1:3)."

In order to have eternal life in the CK and godhood, Mormons must OBEY all of the rules and regulations and laws your church makes them do. That is earning exaltation, no matter how you slice and dice it, Aaron. One can't even get into your temples unless one pays a full tithe, thus PAYING to get into your temples. Your members PAY for what Jesus suffered, bled, and died to give us as a gift: "For the wages of sin is death, but the FREE GIFT OF GOD is life eternal in Christ Jesus our Lord." (Romans. 6:23)
Yes, in that article it says: "Like immortality, this gift is made possible through the Atonement of Jesus Christ." It also says eternal life is inherited. Why is the atonement needed if we can simply earn it?

Your Jesus' atonement makes it possible for Mormons to earn eternal life by obedience to all of the laws and ordinances your church lays on its members.
Is it because obedience is necessary that you disagree with it? Do you believe a willful disobedient person can inherit eternal life?

Obedience is earning eternal life. Mormons must obey all sorts of laws in their church in order to "inherit" it. T
Ah, so Mormons are foolish but not fools? How does that make sense?

I was asked who believed foolish arguments and I answered. I never called anyone a "fool."
Like clockwork. Deferring to the same tired arguments, over and over. Can you just post this in your signature, or create a post and link to it so we can some getting to this redundant attack?

Huh?
The article is a strawmen argument, just as most anti-mormon arguments are.
No straw man about it. But the article that contrasts the Mormon god with the true God of the Bible is far from being some "straw" man, Aaron. And most "anti-Mormon" arguments we post on here are NOT.
 
Last edited:
Here is some more about this:


Twelfth President Spencer W. Kimball explained, “One may be saved in any one of three kingdoms of glory—the telestial, the terrestrial, or the celestial—but one can reach exaltation only in the highest of the three heavens or degrees in the celestial glory” (The Miracle of Forgiveness, p. 8). To enter this top kingdom of glory, a person must fully obey the commandments. As tenth President Joseph Fielding Smith said, “To enter the celestial and obtain exaltation it is necessary that the whole law be kept. The word of the Lord is that they of the celestial world are those sanctified from all unrighteousness” (The Way to Perfection, p. 206).

(This article quotes from Mormon writings, so no need to fear going to the link and reading what it says.)

But--obey which commandments? God's? OR the Mormon church's? If God's, then who on earth has ever obeyed them completely without fail, 24/7, 365? ONLY Jesus Christ in all of human history ever did that! IF it were possible to obey the 10 commandments perfectly, then Jesus would not have needed to come and die on Calvary's cross, to be the atoning sacrifice for all our sins.

Paul makes it clear in his epistles that neither works of the law or works done in righteousness save us, but ONLY God's mercy through Christ Jesus our Lord.

A church manual reported, “As we are obedient to the commandments of God, we EARN the right to live with him forever in the celestial kingdom” (Uniform System for Teaching Families, 1973, p. D-1). And another manual states, “Eternal life is living with Heavenly Father and Jesus Christ in the celestial kingdom. This blessing—which is also called exaltation— comes only to those who keep the commandments and make the necessary covenants” (Preparing for Exaltation Teacher’s Manual, 1998, p. 4).

See here? Mormons EARN the right to live forever in the Celestial kingdom. As the Young Woman Manual, vol. 2, p. 29 says "Exaltation is worth ALL OUR EFFORTS."

OUR efforts. Which means exaltation is something Mormons must EARN.

"For the wages of sin is death; but the free gift of God is life eternal in Christ Jesus our Lord."

What part of "free gift" don't Mormons understand? Does one earn a gift? A gift, by its very definition, is free--no strings attached.
 
Last edited:
Why didn't you quote the REST of this definition, Aaron?
Because, Bonnie, before you can understand "all you can do", you must understand that the power "to do" comes through God's enabling grace.
Moroni 10:25 ...for there shall be none that doeth good among you, no not one. For if there be one among you that doeth good, he shall work by the power and gifts of God.
Again, I don't cite the BoM to preach to you, this is to help you understand Mormon beliefs.

This is one definition of grace, but in the Bible, "grace" mostly means "God's UNdeserved love/favor."
And what verse in the Bible are you referring to? Can we stick strictly with God's word, and keep your suppositions out of it?
NOT just the ability to do something. So, this definition is wrong. Here is the entire thing, in context:
Yes, Bonnie, it requires total effort on the part of the recipient. What do you think it means to "love the Lord thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy might"?
Did not Paul admonish us to make our bodies a living sacrifice?
Yet, Christians here seem to suggest that "not all is required".

See the bolded stuff? This makes grace a payment for our efforts.
Ummm...no. It makes our efforts a sacrifice, which is the evidence of our faith. Read it again:
"...grace cannot suffice without total effort on the part of the recipient. Hence the explanation, 'It is by grace that we are saved, after all we can do'"
This isn't any different that Paul saying "Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound? God forbid." Admonishing us to walking a couple verses later to "walk in the newness of life", reminding us the our "old man" was figuratively "crucified".

Also, consider the matching verse in the chiasmus on 2 Ne 10:24:
"after ye are reconciled unto God, [ie. "all you can do"] that it is only in and through the grace of God that ye are saved."

But, no doubt, you will probably ignore this... AGAIN...and continue with your false strawmen to attack our beliefs. And continue to inadvertently suggest that it's ok to withhold some of our effort, permitting some of our "old man" to remain.

[Abraham] was able to [walk perfectly] because he had faith in God and his promises. But we know that Abraham was far from perfect. But because of his great faith, God declared him righteous. His faith was counted as righteousness. Read Genesis 15.
Yes. This is my point. A living faith is followed by works, and walking in the works God has ordained. (Eph 2:10) And yet, your defining this as "earning" salvation. Strange.

We can do nothing to MERIT eternal life. We are utterly helpless to do so. We are, by nature, children of wrath, as Eph. 2 says--NOT "children of God."
What a dreary gospel you preach. Where's the good news in that? Does believing in God's only begotten Son MERIT everlasting life? See John 3:16

That seems to be contrary to Jesus saying "if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments", knowing the God makes that possible through his enabling grace.

Your church piles on things its members must "do" to earn eternal life in the CK and godhood, like temple works. Mormons do the things you list in order to GET eternal life. But true Christians born again by the Spirit gladly support their churches, treat their bodies with respect, love their fellow man, etc. BECAUSE they are ALREADY SAVED. In other words, they do what is pleasing to God BECAUSE they are saved, not to GET saved.
First, yes, Mormons believe that yes, if the are faithful, they will receive eternal life. Those who love God, keep his commandments. (John 14:15)
Second, isn't it interesting how you assume evil motives and bad attitudes of Mormons? It's almost as if you believe you NEED for Mormons to be evil for you to be righteous. What's objectively provable in your false narrative? Absolutely nothing. You project this bad attitude, while saying "true" Christians gladly support their churches. You paint a box that people only you accept are "true" Christians. This is bigotry, pure and simple.
Third, your assumption here is OSAS, despite the biblical truth that men can fall from grace. So-called "Christians" will backtrack here saying, well if he falls out of his godly walk he was never saved to begin with. The only objective truth we can prove is to watch a person if they will remain faithful unto death to KNOW if they're really saved. So the uncertainty of salvation is just as uncertain as you paint for us. But what we can be certain of is people being deliberately bigoted probably won't inherit eternal life.

Can you tell me on this Mormons are commanded to that is expressly condemned in the Bible?
Doing it for the latter reason is selfish and there is no love in selfishness--is there?
You mean like assuming selfish motives and condemning others that don't agree with you? Yes.
"However, to inherit eternal life requires our “obedience to the laws and ordinances of the Gospel” (Articles of Faith 1:3)."

In order to have eternal life in the CK and godhood, Mormons must OBEY all of the rules and regulations and laws your church makes them do. That is earning exaltation, no matter how you slice and dice it, Aaron. One can't even get into your temples unless one pays a full tithe, thus PAYING to get into your temples. Your members PAY for what Jesus suffered, bled, and died to give us as a gift: "For the wages of sin is death, but the FREE GIFT OF GOD is life eternal in Christ Jesus our Lord." (Romans. 6:23)
Ummm...yes. Obedience is a biblical principle. Dont you recall the parable of the wise man and the foolish man? What's defining attributes distinguishes them? Obedience, or lack thereof.
And obedience, again, can only be maintained by God's enabling grace through faith. Do saved men still have the agency to reject God's grace? Yes, they do. So it is not "earning" eternal life, it's choosing to receive eternal life. SMH
Your Jesus' atonement makes it possible for Mormons to earn eternal life by obedience to all of the laws and ordinances your church lays on its members.
Just switch out "earn" for "obtain", and then you got it. Yes, and it is glorious. Doesn't your Jesus do this for you?

Obedience is earning eternal life.
Nope. Obedience is the result of inheriting divine nature, that leads to eternal life.
John 15:4 Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me

Mormons must obey all sorts of laws in their church in order to "inherit" it.
Yes, and the leader of our Church is Jesus Christ. It's not many laws, it's really just one law - Obeying God's Word
Deut 11:1 Therefore thou shalt love the Lord thy God, and keep his charge, and his statutes, and his judgments, and his commandments, alway
Romans 8:
2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death. 3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:
4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
Gal 6:
2 Bear ye one another’s burdens, and so fulfil the law of Christ
I was asked who believed foolish arguments and I answered. I never called anyone a "fool."
Backtrack all you want, Bonnie. We all know what you meant. You don't need to justify yourself to me, but I would invite you to examine your attitude toward others that believe differently from you. I may figuratively eat herbs while you eat meats (see Romans 14), and you can assign me, a Mormon, any imaginary evil motive you wish. But unless you can objectively prove what I'm actually doing contrary to biblical standard, then you're simply casting stones for no good reason. You would not treat your friends, and yourself, as you do me, a Mormon. (if you do, I pity do.) Jesus COMMANDED his followers to love our enemies, and treat others as we'd like to be treated.
No straw man about it. But the article that contrasts the Mormon god with the true God of the Bible is far from being some "straw" man, Aaron. And most "anti-Mormon" arguments we post on here are NOT.
Well, if that's true, you'd be able to refute, with evidence, the Mormon scriptures and statements that run contrary to your narrative. But we never see that, do we? It's always a shallow argument, any evidence posted contrary to your narrative gets ignored, followed by a the same biased opinion.
 
Why didn't you quote the REST of this definition, Aaron?
Because, Bonnie, before you can understand "all you can do", you must understand that the power "to do" comes through God's enabling grace.
Moroni 10:25 ...for there shall be none that doeth good among you, no not one. For if there be one among you that doeth good, he shall work by the power and gifts of God.
Again, I don't cite the BoM to preach to you, this is to help you understand Mormon beliefs.

This is one definition of grace, but in the Bible, "grace" mostly means "God's UNdeserved love/favor."
And what verse in the Bible are you referring to? Can we stick strictly with God's word, and keep your suppositions out of it?
NOT just the ability to do something. So, this definition is wrong. Here is the entire thing, in context:
Yes, Bonnie, it requires total effort on the part of the recipient. What do you think it means to "love the Lord thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy might"?
Did not Paul admonish us to make our bodies a living sacrifice?
Yet, Christians here seem to suggest that "not all is required".

See the bolded stuff? This makes grace a payment for our efforts.
Ummm...no. It makes our efforts a sacrifice, which is the evidence of our faith. Read it again:
"...grace cannot suffice without total effort on the part of the recipient. Hence the explanation, 'It is by grace that we are saved, after all we can do'"
This isn't any different that Paul saying "Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound? God forbid." Admonishing us to walking a couple verses later to "walk in the newness of life", reminding us the our "old man" was figuratively "crucified".

Also, consider the matching verse in the chiasmus on 2 Ne 10:24:
"after ye are reconciled unto God, [ie. "all you can do"] that it is only in and through the grace of God that ye are saved."

But, no doubt, you will probably ignore this... AGAIN...and continue with your false strawmen to attack our beliefs. And continue to inadvertently suggest that it's ok to withhold some of our effort, permitting some of our "old man" to remain.

[Abraham] was able to [walk perfectly] because he had faith in God and his promises. But we know that Abraham was far from perfect. But because of his great faith, God declared him righteous. His faith was counted as righteousness. Read Genesis 15.
Yes. This is my point. A living faith is followed by works, and walking in the works God has ordained. (Eph 2:10) And yet, your defining this as "earning" salvation. Strange.

We can do nothing to MERIT eternal life. We are utterly helpless to do so. We are, by nature, children of wrath, as Eph. 2 says--NOT "children of God."
What a dreary gospel you preach. Where's the good news in that? Does believing in God's only begotten Son MERIT everlasting life? See John 3:16

That seems to be contrary to Jesus saying "if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments", knowing the God makes that possible through his enabling grace.

Your church piles on things its members must "do" to earn eternal life in the CK and godhood, like temple works. Mormons do the things you list in order to GET eternal life. But true Christians born again by the Spirit gladly support their churches, treat their bodies with respect, love their fellow man, etc. BECAUSE they are ALREADY SAVED. In other words, they do what is pleasing to God BECAUSE they are saved, not to GET saved.
First, yes, Mormons believe that yes, if the are faithful, they will receive eternal life. Those who love God, keep his commandments. (John 14:15)
Second, isn't it interesting how you assume evil motives and bad attitudes of Mormons? It's almost as if you believe you NEED for Mormons to be evil for you to be righteous. What's objectively provable in your false narrative? Absolutely nothing. You project this bad attitude, while saying "true" Christians gladly support their churches. You paint a box that people only you accept are "true" Christians. This is bigotry, pure and simple.
Third, your assumption here is OSAS, despite the biblical truth that men can fall from grace. So-called "Christians" will backtrack here saying, well if he falls out of his godly walk he was never saved to begin with. The only objective truth we can prove is to watch a person if they will remain faithful unto death to KNOW if they're really saved. So the uncertainty of salvation is just as uncertain as you paint for us. But what we can be certain of is people being deliberately bigoted probably won't inherit eternal life.

Can you tell me on this Mormons are commanded to that is expressly condemned in the Bible?
Doing it for the latter reason is selfish and there is no love in selfishness--is there?
You mean like assuming selfish motives and condemning others that don't agree with you? Yes.
"However, to inherit eternal life requires our “obedience to the laws and ordinances of the Gospel” (Articles of Faith 1:3)."

In order to have eternal life in the CK and godhood, Mormons must OBEY all of the rules and regulations and laws your church makes them do. That is earning exaltation, no matter how you slice and dice it, Aaron. One can't even get into your temples unless one pays a full tithe, thus PAYING to get into your temples. Your members PAY for what Jesus suffered, bled, and died to give us as a gift: "For the wages of sin is death, but the FREE GIFT OF GOD is life eternal in Christ Jesus our Lord." (Romans. 6:23)
Ummm...yes. Obedience is a biblical principle. Dont you recall the parable of the wise man and the foolish man? What's defining attributes distinguishes them? Obedience, or lack thereof.
And obedience, again, can only be maintained by God's enabling grace through faith. Do saved men still have the agency to reject God's grace? Yes, they do. So it is not "earning" eternal life, it's choosing to receive eternal life. SMH
Your Jesus' atonement makes it possible for Mormons to earn eternal life by obedience to all of the laws and ordinances your church lays on its members.
Just switch out "earn" for "obtain", and then you got it. Yes, and it is glorious. Doesn't your Jesus do this for you?

Obedience is earning eternal life.
Nope. Obedience is the result of inheriting divine nature, that leads to eternal life.
John 15:4 Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me

Mormons must obey all sorts of laws in their church in order to "inherit" it.
Yes, and the leader of our Church is Jesus Christ. It's not many laws, it's really just one law - Obeying God's Word
Deut 11:1 Therefore thou shalt love the Lord thy God, and keep his charge, and his statutes, and his judgments, and his commandments, alway
Romans 8:
2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death. 3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:
4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
Gal 6:
2 Bear ye one another’s burdens, and so fulfil the law of Christ
I was asked who believed foolish arguments and I answered. I never called anyone a "fool."
Backtrack all you want, Bonnie. We all know what you meant. You don't need to justify yourself to me, but I would invite you to examine your attitude toward others that believe differently from you. I may figuratively eat herbs while you eat meats (see Romans 14), and you can assign me, a Mormon, any imaginary evil motive you wish. But unless you can objectively prove what I'm actually doing contrary to biblical standard, then you're simply casting stones for no good reason. You would not treat your friends, and yourself, as you do me, a Mormon. (if you do, I pity do.) Jesus COMMANDED his followers to love our enemies, and treat others as we'd like to be treated.
No straw man about it. But the article that contrasts the Mormon god with the true God of the Bible is far from being some "straw" man, Aaron. And most "anti-Mormon" arguments we post on here are NOT.
Well, if that's true, you'd be able to refute, with evidence, the Mormon scriptures and statements that run contrary to your narrative. But we never see that, do we? It's always a shallow argument, any evidence posted contrary to your narrative gets ignored, followed by a the same biased opinion.
 
Sigh. I am sorry Aaron, but your posts are just too danged long. I would greatly appreciate it if you would break up your posts into several smaller ones. If I respond to this in one post, it will be too long, then I will need to cut and paste it into several different posts, and sometimes I lose stuff when I do that, or the board goes bonkers and won't let me post anything for awhile.

But I will say this--the definition your church gives for "grace" is wrong. In the Bible it mostly, and I mean, MOSTLY, means "God's UNdeserving grace."

We cannot work for that which we do not deserve. But God gives us His grace by faith in Christ Jesus our Lord. THEN we are able to bear fruit pleasing to the Lord, but we do so IN salvation, not FOR salvation. And it is, as you note, God Who enables us to do them.

But your church still says that Mormons must EARN exaltation. And I proved it, by quoting what your church writings say, that I found on mrm.org. You EARN exaltation by obedience to Mormon laws. That is NOT salvation to eternal life by grace through faith but is based on the useless ol' merit system, which saves no one.

Jesus and Jesus alone merited salvation FOR us, by His spotless, sinless life and by being the ultimate, perfect sacrifice for ALL our sins on the cross, never to be repeated. We have eternal life in His Name, when we trust in HIM only for our salvation, great and free. We are then FREE to bear fruit pleasing to God, because we no longer need angst over whether or not we have "done enough" to merit eternal life, because JESUS HIMSELF DID ENOUGH. And that "enough" is transferred to us by grace--God's undeserved favor--through faith in Christ Jesus our Lord; the true One of the Bible, not the false one of Mormonism, who is Satan's elder brother in the supposed pre-mortal existence. I am sorry, Aaron, but a false Savior saves no one.

Please stop resisting the HS and allow Him to work saving faith in your hearth by the true Gospel message, which I just gave you here. If you do, you will have the most inexpressible joy and peace that passes all understanding because then the true Jesus Christ of the Bible will keep your heart and mind in HIM.

God bless you, Aaron.
 
Last edited:
Back
Top