When They Tell You What Underwear to Use - You Know You're in a Cult:

[Bonnie]

Aaron, The Young Women Manual vol. 2 is out of print? But it is still on your church's website, in pdf form. And it does have that heading.

The fact is, Aaron, your church teaches that exaltation/eternal life must be EARNED by OBEDIENCE to al the laws that your church has set up. LAWS found nowhere in the Bible. And part of that obedience is tithing so one can get into your temples in order to perform all of the ordinances therein. It takes EFFORT on the part of your church's members to do those things. Your members must "jump" through various hoops in order to EARN this exaltation.

I notice you made no comment on that sermon I linked you to, so I can only assume you didn't read it....but you say you trust in Christ for your salvation....however, in your church, "salvation" just means resurrection into immortality, which comes to all people everywhere, regardless of their beliefs and how they lived their lives on earth. So, is this the "salvation" you mean, or are you talking about trusting in Christ Jesus for eternal life? Because that is quite different in your church.

But IF you mean eternal life, please answer these simple questions: Do you have a temple recommend? Do you keep it up? If yes, to both, then WHY? IF you believe you are saved by faith in Jesus Christ? And is this the Jesus Christ of Mormonism, the brother of Satan in the pre-mortal spirit existence....OR faith in the true Jesus Christ of the Bible, true God from all eternity, and true man, since His incarnation? Who is NOT and never WAS the brother of Satan in any way, shape, or form?

 

[brotherofJared]

The gift of eternal life that God gives to sinners required the sacrifice of His only Son.

And how hard was that for you? Do you not understand the implications when we say easy Grace? We're not talking about the work that Jesus had to do.

He didn't give Christians easy lives,

Are you disagree with you on that point. Apparently from your perspective, you don't have to do anything to be saved. If that's not easy I don't know what is.

Do you know how many Christians have died serving Him?

No, do you? That's lame. We are all going to die. Doesn't matter whether you're Christian or not. But if that's all you have to do to be saved, then it's still easy. You still don't have to do anything. You can just wait around and eventually you're going to die. I guess you can claim you died serving him.

Read about the martyrs including John the Baptist and Stephen

LOL. None of you are in a class with them. They actually kept the commandments and believed that that was the path to salvation. Easy salvation is where you don't have to do anything. God did it all. It's a false Doctrine and it's not found in the scriptures.

Mormons judge Christians and say that your church is the "kingdom of God on earth."

That doesn't even make sense. You accuse us of something that we don't do. There can be only one true church. That's just a fact. They can all be wrong but they can't all be right.

You can't name one, just one, Christian who does nothing

I don't know the argument. I don't know any of you who do anything. It's always about what you do. The problem is that our critics on here insist that they don't have to do anything for salvation. That's easy salvation. On the other hand, the martyrs you mentioned and Latter-Day Saints Day believe that we have to do something or we can't be saved. That's what the scriptures teach. I don't know where you guys got your Doctrine but it wasn't from the Bible.

 

[brotherofJared]

For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all.
James 2:10

What a cop out. You're suggesting that since once in offends the entire law that we shouldn't keep any of The commandments. we shouldn't even bother trying. Can you show me in the scriptures that that's the argument he's actually trying to make?

For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness

I don't know why you guys keep using the scripture as though Abraham didn't do anything. He did a lot of work. And it was by the work that he did that we know he believed god. You are wrestling the scriptures to your own demise bending them to your will rather than you bending your will to the scriptures. Abraham worked.

4 Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.
5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

And so from this you believe that easy Grace is the way to salvation. I mean it says it right there, but to him that worketh not but believes, he'll be saved. So I guess that means Abraham isn't saved since Abraham worked.

You people read a few words and ignore all the context around it. The work is circumcision. That was a deal of righteousness AFTER the test of Abraham's faith. That test was that he believed God was able to fulfill his promises.

The promise wasn't in a ritual, it was it the path Abraham walked daily believing that God would fulfill his promises. That takes work.

 

[Aaron32]

I'm a Christian, and you're calling a Christian opposed to Mormonism a cultist. Case closed.

Huh?
Christians are known by their fruits, not what they choose to call themselves.

I think this was already addressed by a moderator. You might want to check that out.

Why should I? How is this relevant to anything?

This is a Christian forum, and the Christians here oppose Mormon heresies or they wouldn't be here - not a forum to foster or propagate your cult's insistence that it alone is Christian and that its founder, Joey Smith, was a true prophet of God........that is pure delusion.

Yes, the forum is biased toward protestants, declaring they are the only true Christians. I know.

 

[brotherofJared]

Huh?
Christians are known by their fruits, not what they choose to call themselves.

That's not the dictionary definition, but the part where you said, "not what they choose to call themselves". Fits our critics to a T. The fact remains, the dictionary states that a Christian is one who claims to follow the teachings of Jesus Christ. And also, a cult is a group of people with similar religious beliefs or systems.

 

[Catherineaurelia]

That's not the dictionary definition, but the part where you said, "not what they choose to call themselves". Fits our critics to a T. The fact remains, the dictionary states that a Christian is one who claims to follow the teachings of Jesus Christ. And also, a cult is a group of people with similar religious beliefs or systems.

So, where did Jesus ever teach that one should involve himself in occult rituals in a temple? Verse verification please? I thought Jesus said that the Body of Christ is the new Temple? Guess you guys are following the false teachings of Joey the Liar Smith.

 

[Bonnie]

That's not the dictionary definition, but the part where you said, "not what they choose to call themselves". Fits our critics to a T. The fact remains, the dictionary states that a Christian is one who claims to follow the teachings of Jesus Christ.

Yes, the TRUE Jesus Christ of the Bible--not the false one of Mormonism, who is Satan's actual brother in the supposed, pre-mortal existence. Shameful.

And also, a cult is a group of people with similar religious beliefs or systems.

When we talk about Mormonism being a cult, we mean a pseudo-Christian cult, whose teachings are entirely unorthodox and unbiblical. One of the main things that is characteristic of these cults is that they nearly always misrepresent the Person and work of Jesus Christ. So, YOUR cult fits that to a "t." Also, these cults tend to have extra-Biblical writings they make equal to Scripture. That also fits your church to a "t."

 

[brotherofJared]

So, where did Jesus ever teach that one should involve himself in occult rituals in a temple?

I guess you think you found the sore spot with this subject. There is no occult and I believe anyone who knows anything about our church realizes that you're being deceptive.

I thought Jesus said that the Body of Christ is the new Temple?

LOL. Did you just make that up on your own or is that something your preacher told you? It doesn't say that anywhere in the Bible.

 

[Richard7]

So, where did Jesus ever teach that one should involve himself in occult rituals in a temple? Verse verification please? I thought Jesus said that the Body of Christ is the new Temple? Guess you guys are following the false teachings of Joey the Liar Smith.

Oh my! and you complain about Burger King Durbin as a smear and then proceed to smear JS....edited rule 12 violation

 

[Bonnie]

Oh, my, oh my! Except Joseph Smith WAS a liar! He lied about not having more than one wife...he lied about claiming to have made prophesies in God's name, when most did not come true....he lied about always having taught that Father, Son, and HG are three separate gods, whereas his BoM is strictly monotheistic and overtly Trinitarian....

Smith taught the WoW, whereas he didn't even follow it, himself--he was seen riding around the streets, while smoking cigars, plus, he often drank wine....there is a word for that, Richard....Oh, my!

Oh, my! Oh, my!

 

[Catherineaurelia]

Oh, my, oh my! Except Joseph Smith WAS a liar! He lied about not having more than one wife...he lied about claiming to have made prophesies in God's name, when most did not come true....he lied about always having taught that Father, Son, and HG are three separate gods, whereas his BoM is strictly monotheistic and overtly Trinitarian....

Smith taught the WoW, whereas he didn't even follow it, himself--he was seen riding around the streets, while smoking cigars, plus, he often drank wine....there is a word for that, Richard....Oh, my!

Oh, my! Oh, my!

Hypocrite?

 

[Aaron32]

Sorry for the delayed response on this. If you don't quote or tag me, then your posts will probably be overlooked.

Aaron, The Young Women Manual vol. 2 is out of print?

Yes.

But it is still on your church's website, in pdf form. And it does have that heading.

Ok. And? Beliefs binding upon members of the Church are found in the Standard Works, not manuals. You don't see missionaries riding around handing out copies of a young women's manual. Manuals are downstream of the scriptures.

The fact is, Aaron, your church teaches that exaltation/eternal life must be EARNED by OBEDIENCE to al the laws that your church has set up.

No, received though faithfulness.

LAWS found nowhere in the Bible.

We don't believe in Sola Scriptura, so this is irrelevant.

And part of that obedience is tithing so one can get into your temples in order to perform all of the ordinances therein.

Right...why would you permit someone to concentrate all time, talents, and everything God has blessed with, when they can't even give back a tenth?

It takes EFFORT on the part of your church's members to do those things.

Which can't be sustained without God's enabling grace per the LDS Bible Dictionary.

Your members must "jump" through various hoops in order to EARN this exaltation.

Well, that's your perspective.
The role of the Church is to help prepare it's members live in the fullness of God's Celestial Glory, who is perfect. It's odd that one would take an attitude of "eat, drink, and be merry" (Luke 12:19)

I notice you made no comment on that sermon I linked you to, so I can only assume you didn't read it....but you say you trust in Christ for your salvation....however, in your church, "salvation" just means resurrection into immortality, which comes to all people everywhere, regardless of their beliefs and how they lived their lives on earth. So, is this the "salvation" you mean, or are you talking about trusting in Christ Jesus for eternal life? Because that is quite different in your church.

Salvation has many definitions in mormonism based on the context. The salvation I consider is spiritually reborn.

But IF you mean eternal life, please answer these simple questions: Do you have a temple recommend? Do you keep it up? If yes, to both, then WHY?

Yes. Yes. Lots of reasons, but not to receive a remission of sins. The temple is for sanctification, and exaltation, not salvation. I do so with an eye single to God's glory.

IF you believe you are saved by faith in Jesus Christ?

A living faith is followed by works. The temple isn't about salvation, it's about exaltation.

And is this the Jesus Christ of Mormonism, the brother of Satan in the pre-mortal spirit existence....OR faith in the true Jesus Christ of the Bible, true God from all eternity, and true man, since His incarnation?

False dilemma

Who is NOT and never WAS the brother of Satan in any way, shape, or form?

Does Jesus have a spirit? Does Satan have a spirit? Is there one Father of Spirits?

Hebrews 12:9
9 Furthermore we have had fathers of our flesh which corrected us, and we gave them reverence: shall we not much rather be in subjection unto the Father of spirits, and live?

John 20:17
17 Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God

 

[Janice Bower]

Does Jesus have a spirit? Does Satan have a spirit? Is there one Father of Spirits?

Hebrews 12:9
9 Furthermore we have had fathers of our flesh which corrected us, and we gave them reverence: shall we not much rather be in subjection unto the Father of spirits, and live?

God is not the Father of evil spirits.

Matt. 28-34
Jesus Restores Two Demon-Possessed Men

28When he arrived at the other side in the region of the Gadarenes, c two demon-possessed men coming from the tombs met him. They were so violent that no one could pass that way. 29“What do you want with us, Son of God?” they shouted. “Have you come here to torture us before the appointed time?”

30Some distance from them a large herd of pigs was feeding. 31The demons begged Jesus, “If you drive us out, send us into the herd of pigs.”

32He said to them, “Go!” So they came out and went into the pigs, and the whole herd rushed down the steep bank into the lake and died in the water. 33Those tending the pigs ran off, went into the town and reported all this, including what had happened to the demon-possessed men. 34Then the whole town went out to meet Jesus. And when they saw him, they pleaded with him to leave their region.

John 8
Jesus said to them, “If God were your Father, you would love me, for I have come here from God. I have not come on my own; God sent me.

John 1:12-13
12Yet to all who did receive him, to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God— 13children born not of natural descent, nor of human decision or a husband’s will, but born of God.

 

[Janice Bower]

The temple isn't about salvation, it's about exaltation.

"All mankind can be saved by obedience to the laws and ordinances of the [Mormon] gospel."

That includes temple laws and ordinances. If it didn't, obedience would also be required for immortality.

 

[Aaron32]

God is not the Father of evil spirits.

How did they get created then?

Matt. 28-34
Jesus Restores Two Demon-Possessed Men

28When he arrived at the other side in the region of the Gadarenes, c two demon-possessed men coming from the tombs met him. They were so violent that no one could pass that way. 29“What do you want with us, Son of God?” they shouted. “Have you come here to torture us before the appointed time?”

30Some distance from them a large herd of pigs was feeding. 31The demons begged Jesus, “If you drive us out, send us into the herd of pigs.”

32He said to them, “Go!” So they came out and went into the pigs, and the whole herd rushed down the steep bank into the lake and died in the water. 33Those tending the pigs ran off, went into the town and reported all this, including what had happened to the demon-possessed men. 34Then the whole town went out to meet Jesus. And when they saw him, they pleaded with him to leave their region.

John 8
Jesus said to them, “If God were your Father, you would love me, for I have come here from God. I have not come on my own; God sent me.

John 1:12-13
12Yet to all who did receive him, to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God— 13children born not of natural descent, nor of human decision or a husband’s will, but born of God.

I don't see how these verses substantiate your claims.

 

[Aaron32]

"All mankind can be saved by obedience to the laws and ordinances of the [Mormon] gospel."

That includes temple laws and ordinances. If it didn't, obedience would also be required for immortality.

Wrong. There's clearly a difference between salvation and exaltation

 

[Janice Bower]

How did they get created then?

I don't see how these verses substantiate your claims.

You can't see truth because you are blinded by lies!

 

[Janice Bower]

Wrong. There's clearly a difference between salvation and exaltatIion.

Mormons teach all kinds of lies and love to post their false beliefs even when they disagree with their 13 Articles of Faith.

 

[brotherofJared]

God is not the Father of evil spirits.

Hmmm. Yet He IS the father of evil men. This is another example of a man-made religion.

On the one hand we have a God who created all things, but he isn't the father of evil spirits. Then who is the father of evil spirits? Who created them? Then our critics claim that nothing existed before God existed, not even a place for this non-existing God to exist. IOW, nothing existed before God, not spirits, not man, not science or laws or love or hate. EVERYTHING that does exist, God created including Himself. Right here we have a conundrum that runs fould of my first posit, but my point here is that physical man AND his spirit did not exist until born. That would mean that God not only created the body which is supposedly inherently evil, but he created the spirit that goes in the body. So, it seems that God does create evil things. I'm not sure how our critics can explain this given the unsupportable logic statement in their post, that "God is not the Father of evil spirits". One way or the other, their God is 100% responsible for both the evil and the good that happens. He created everything and yet, somehow, He isn't the father of evil spirits. It appears that our critics don't know what we are. But that whatever we are, God made it, but he didn't make evil spirits. Utterly astounding.

I agree with them though. God isn't the father of evil spirits and that's because he didn't create any of them, good or evil. They already existed, co-eternal with God. Fatherhood, in this context, is not sexual or biological. The most appropriate definition of father in this context is "one that originates or institutes".

According to Joseph Smith, "God himself, finding he was in the midst of spirits and glory, because he was more intelligent, saw proper to institute laws whereby the rest could have a privilege to advance like himself", KFD. This, by instituting laws that we committed to following, He became the Father of spirits - beings that already existed but committed to abiding by those laws. Rebelling against those laws, being once committed to them and then rejecting them once it didn't go the way some wanted, established a new order, one of lies and deception and a new father called the father of lies.

According to my understanding of our beliefs and what I believe Joseph Smith taught, we have always existed, just as God has always existed. Our existences was in darkness and chaos until God found us. A light burst upon us, His presence alone was sufficient, IMO, to recognize that order was better than chaos which was that light. It was like constantly struggling for air, and then suddenly being able to breath (not unlike physical birth). Instituting laws, are the commandments whereby, if we follow them we can become like Him. Christ, His son, becomes our Father because He is the author of our salvation, written in his blood (and by so doing, became the finisher of it ONLY for those who would follow Him). The flip side of that would be rebelling against those laws causing the fall or second death just as in the first death.

So, being the father of spirits does not mean God created them. God created an opportunity and everyone who exists in this dispensation initially accepted that his way was better than our way. This, he is the father of all spirits, both good and evil. Those who rebelled against the conditions of that plan, reject the opportunity and become children of darkness. It has nothing to do with sex or procreation. Nor does it have anything to do with creation or making something from nothing.

Darkness is the absence of light. Light must have a source. It travels at a definite speed. There is a LOT of darkness still out there. An infinite about, to be exact. It would be hopeless to think that our existence is all the light that is ever going to come into that darkness. Time does not allow for our existence to even put a scratch on the work of God. There is so much more to be done that even a billion years would not phase the amount of chaos that exists. Our sun would have long vanquished the earth, making it uninhabitable. No, worlds must continue to come into existence in order to bring order to the infinite chaos. It rolls onward and expands at an ever increasing rate and can only do so IF we can become like God himself.

I'm sorry, but the vision of the religion of our critics diminishes in contract. It is the tinkling of brass or sounding if cymbals in a vacant hall, void of all meaning. Their promises are hollow, empty promises of happiness, eating fruit in a garden that never dies forever. The religion of our critics is a religion of the dead. Our future is in our children. If we cannot have.children, we have no future. Think about that.

That is not Joseph Smith's vision. That is God's vision. It is a God vision. Evil spirits rebell against that vision. They try to limit the scope. They try to extinguish the light, to fold back into chaos because they cannot stand the idea that choices come with consequences. That is the very basis of the rebellion. They want to choke the light out of anyone who disagrees with them. You don't need to get baptized. God will take care of everything. All you need to do is believe. That is a evil and pernicious lie. If you believed, you would get baptized and if you wanted to be sure it was a real baptism and not some imposter performing it, you'd do your best to make sure they had authority from God and not some self appointed authority. Do you all not see where the real evil lies?

No, God does not father evil spirits. They already existed. They have always existed and will forever exist. They are on their own mission to covert as many as possible to their religion. It exists in chaos. They love the dark. But it's a love that cannot bring happiness.

 

[Aaron32]

You can't see truth because you are blinded by lies!

If you honestly believe that, you should follow Jesus' counsel:
Matt 15:14 Let them alone: they be blind leaders of the blind. And if the blind lead the blind, both shall fall into the ditch