Where can the truth and reality be known to exist?

SteveB

Well-known member
Choose ONE that YOU'VE READ and can summarize. Start a thread on it, and I'll read it too and discuss it with you. If that goes well, we can look at the rest.
nope.
If you're going to be lazy, this doesn't go your way.
Either man up, and read/listen for yourself, or step off, and spare us the whining.
 

Nouveau

Well-known member
nope.
If you're going to be lazy, this doesn't go your way.
Either man up, and read/listen for yourself, or step off, and spare us the whining.
Is the problem that you haven't read them yourself, that you can't summarize any of them, or that you refuse to focus on one article at a time?

You have a history of recommending material you haven't read, of trying to overwhelm people with huge reading lists, and of then ignoring rebuttals from people who do read the material.
 

SteveB

Well-known member
Is the problem that you haven't read them yourself, that you can't summarize any of them, or that you refuse to focus on one article at a time?

You have a history of recommending material you haven't read, of trying to overwhelm people with huge reading lists, and of then ignoring rebuttals from people who do read the material.
still not helping your cause.
And accusing me only makes things uglier for you.
 

Whatsisface

Well-known member
still not paying attention.
Why is this such a difficult concept for you?
Do you really think you'll be justified acting like this?
You're playing a stupid game. If you were genuine you would be more open. You've got nowhere in all the time you've been here. No one takes you seriously.
 

Tercon

Well-known member
Another of those features of Truth is--- that to know it's true, that belief requires acting on the truth.

The only act of knowing the truth that is necessary in order to make the truth and reality known to us is belief, as we only act upon what we believe in to be true in reality.
Eg., I can believe that the key on my keyring will unlock my the door to my house, garage, car, mailbox, and storage lock, but until I actually use those keys, to unlock/lock those specific locks, I won't actually KNOW.....

If a belief in reality is necessary in order to make the truth known, then a belief in reality is what makes the truth known in reality.
It'll be nothing more than an opinion-belief.
Another example, I can indeed believe that the mini-oreo cookies I have in the little cup container I bought for a dollar taste good.... but until I do what I did, eat them, I won't actually KNOW they taste good.

This too is a basis of knowledge.....

That belief requires action for the knowledge we speak of to be experienced. Otherwise, it's nothing but an opinion.
This is why I say that atheism is nothing but a belief based on the lack of knowledge.
Btw.... those mini-oreos really tasted great! :cool:
No, if belief is necessary in order to make the truth and reality known to us, then it is a belief in reality that makes the truth known to us. And what is "opinion-belief", it doesn't sound like a belief in reality? You cannot pretend you are referring to a belief in reality, because belief is still necessary in order to make the truth and reality known to you, no matter your "opinion" of what belief is.
 

Tercon

Well-known member
Lack of a false belief is not a lack of knowledge.

You seem to have given up on substantial replies.
You are conflating belief and unbelief, because "a false belief" isn't a belief in reality. Rather in reality it is just unbelief of the truth.
 

Tercon

Well-known member
Lack of a false belief is not a lack of knowledge.

You seem to have given up on substantial replies.
You are conflating belief and unbelief, as when I am referring to a belief and I denoting a belief in reality and not a "false belief", because "false belief" are not a belief in reality.
 

Whatsisface

Well-known member
You are conflating belief and unbelief, as when I am referring to a belief and I denoting a belief in reality and not a "false belief", because "false belief" are not a belief in reality.
So, according to you, no one has a false belief.
 

Nouveau

Well-known member
You are conflating belief and unbelief, as when I am referring to a belief and I denoting a belief in reality and not a "false belief", because "false belief" are not a belief in reality.
No, I am not conflating anything. Your belief in God, while it is in reality a belief, is not a belief-in-reality but rather a belief in a falsehood. You think it is a belief in something real, but that is what you need to prove, and so far you are failing miserably. I see you are still ignoring my previous post, so I will bump it for you.
 

Nouveau

Well-known member
This is about your question, not your argument. And you are of course welcome to clarify which of the two meanings you intended. Last time I asked, you said you meant both, which confirmed the ambiguity - using one set of words to ask two different questions.

If reality can be known in my mind while existing in God's mind, then why can't it be known in my mind while existing in MIPUST?

I get to stipulate what I mean by "mind-independent", and I am saying that MIPUST can be known by minds but does not rely on any mind in order to exist. That is the alternative hypothesis I am giving in answer to your ambiguous OP question. Again, can you disprove this hypothesis or not?
Bump for Tercon.
 

Tercon

Well-known member
So, according to you, no one has a false belief.
Irrelevant, because a belief in reality is necessary (and not a "false belief) in order to make the truth and reality known to us. So, you are still conflating a belief in reality and "a false belief", because a "false belief" is more akin to a unbelief rather than a belief in reality.
 
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Whatsisface

Well-known member
Irrelevant, because a belief in reality is necessary (and not a "false belief) in order to make the truth and reality known to us. So, you are still conflating a belief in reality and "a false belief".
Why is asking a question irrelevant? In any case you betray yourself with your sloppy thinking. You said...." "false belief" are not a belief in reality."

Now, answer this yes or no. Can people have false beliefs?
 

Nouveau

Well-known member
Why is asking a question irrelevant? In any case you betray yourself with your sloppy thinking. You said...." "false belief" are not a belief in reality."

Now, answer this yes or no. Can people have false beliefs?
Tercon loves his ambiguous language. In this case he will use 'belief in reality' to conflate 'that which really is a belief' and 'that which is a belief in something real'.
 

Tercon

Well-known member
This is about your question, not your argument. And you are of course welcome to clarify which of the two meanings you intended. Last time I asked, you said you meant both, which confirmed the ambiguity - using one set of words to ask two different questions.
If you are confused by the argument, then the confusion is your own, because I didn't use the word "host" incorrectly and you cannot show that I did.
If reality can be known in my mind while existing in God's mind, then why can't it be known in my mind while existing in MIPUST?
Is YOUR "MIPUST" a mind, or is it belief based? Because if it isn't, then it is unknowable to us in reality, since everything we know to be true in and about reality is belief based and only known to exist in and by a believing mind.
I get to stipulate what I mean by "mind-independent", and I am saying that MIPUST can be known by minds but does not rely on any mind in order to exist. That is the alternative hypothesis I am giving in answer to your ambiguous OP question. Again, can you disprove this hypothesis or not?
lol, you are wallowing around in a self-imposed delusion. And you don't get to stipulate anything without an explanation as to how and why it is known to you, especially when the subject at hand is how and why the truth and reality is known to us.
 

Tercon

Well-known member
Why is asking a question irrelevant? In any case you betray yourself with your sloppy thinking. You said...." "false belief" are not a belief in reality."

Now, answer this yes or no. Can people have false beliefs?
No-one can have a "false belief" in reality.
 

Tercon

Well-known member
Tercon loves his ambiguous language. In this case he will use 'belief in reality' to conflate 'that which really is a belief' and 'that which is a belief in something real'.
You're projecting, as if I mean what I say 'a belief in reality' refers to and denotes the truth in reality. For instance if a say I believe 'Donald J Trump is the president of the USA' is a belief in reality, and you mean it to be something else other than a belief in reality, like I provide for you, then it is you who is conflating a belief in reality with something else other than the truth and reality.
 
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