Where can the truth and reality be known to exist?

Temujin

Well-known member
How can it be a strawman, when it is MY answer to someone else's question silly?
Because, as I said, you did not answer the question asked. You first misrepresented the question, then answered that instead.
Actually it is impossible for us to believe in something we know isn't true or is not real in reality, because all belief is a belief in reality and everything else is just unbelief of the truth and thus not reality.
Again you answer the wrong question. We know that we cannot believe what we know not to be true. You were asked, and have failed to answer a different question:
Can anyone believe things that are not true?
 

5wize

Well-known member
Actually in reality we cannot "believe things that" we know are "not real" silly.
Well that’s obvious EDITED. The question is can someone believe in something that they “don’t” know isn’t real?
 
Last edited by a moderator:

Nouveau

Well-known member
You're projecting. As if it is YOU who is insisting on YOUR "false beliefs" exists in reality and I am not insisting that "false beliefs" exist in reality, then it is YOU who must show how you know YOUR "false beliefs" exist in reality silly.
No projection. You're the one who has repeatedly told me my beliefs are false, which is impossible if false beliefs don't exist. Is my belief that false beliefs exist true, or is it false? Of course you can never answer this simple question.

Projection and strawman, as if "what is believed-in is not real" and a belief-in-reality is necessary in order to make the truth and reality known to you, then how do you know what you are saying is true in reality silly?
No projection, no strawman. You are just using ambiguous language again while continually conflating act and object. Again, that the thing believed in (object) is not real doesn't mean the belief itself (act) isn't real. I know what I'm saying to be true because I understand the basic concepts involved and can support my points with reasoned explanations.

You are conflating belief and unbelief, because if I have a NO "belief in Allah" and belief is necessary in order to make the truth and reality known to everyone including you, then you are pretending that someone else's "belief in Allah" is somehow applicable to me, when in reality it obviously isn't.
No conflation, and I'm not saying you believe in Allah. Other people do though, and their belief must be either true or false. So which is it? Does no-one really believe in Allah? How then do you explain Islam? Or if they do really believe, then is their belief true or is it false? But of course you will never answer because this would require you to acknowledge your mistake.
 

Tercon

Well-known member
The question is can someone believe in something that they “don’t” know isn’t real?
That's what you get when you try thinking with a mind that logic doesn't work in, as how can believe in something existence that you "don’t know" and "isn’t real" silly?
 

Temujin

Well-known member
Projection is one of a dozen defense mechanisms labeled by Anna Fread (lesbian who molested her patient)
You have no Psych credentials.
Just like you. Unlike you, I don't exhibit projection either. Nor do I consider the sexuality of a person relevant to their professional opinion. That would be a classic ad hominem argument, something else you know nothing about.
 

5wize

Well-known member
That's what you get when you try thinking with a mind that logic doesn't work in, as how can believe in something existence that you "don’t know" and "isn’t real" silly?
That's not what I said knuckle-head. I said you can believe in something that you don't know isn't real, not something that you don't know AND isn't real.
 
Last edited:

Tercon

Well-known member
No projection. You're the one who has repeatedly told me my beliefs are false, which is impossible if false beliefs don't exist. Is my belief that false beliefs exist true, or is it false? Of course you can never answer this simple question.
Actually YOUR "belief that false beliefs exist" in reality is a "false belief", because ONLY true beliefs exist in reality.
No projection, no strawman. You are just using ambiguous language again while continually conflating act and object.
No I am not "using ambiguous language again while continually" at all, you just want to keep the truth and reality hidden from yourself so you don't have to deal with its implications.
Again, that the thing believed in (object) is not real doesn't mean the belief itself (act) isn't real.
If "false beliefs" cannot be known to be truth in reality, then they are not real in reality either. And whereas a belief in reality is necessary in order to make the truth known to us, then believing "false beliefs" exist in reality doesn't represent how and why the truth and reality are known to us.
I know what I'm saying to be true because I understand the basic concepts involved and can support my points with reasoned explanations.
But you don't seem to know or understand how and why the truth and reality is known to you.
No conflation, and I'm not saying you believe in Allah.
Well if disbelieve in Allah, then that's not a belief but unbelief instead and a clear conflation on your part of belief and unbelief.
Other people do though, and their belief must be either true or false. So which is it?
In reality their "false belief" doesn't apply to me silly, it just affects and applies to them. Do you even know what you are talking about here?
Does no-one really believe in Allah? How then do you explain Islam? Or if they do really believe, then is their belief true or is it false? But of course you will never answer because this would require you to acknowledge your mistake.
Islam doesn't apply to my belief in God, because I am not a Muslim silly. Why are you trying to apply someone else's "false belief" to someone who doesn't even share that "false belief"?
 

Nouveau

Well-known member
Actually YOUR "belief that false beliefs exist" in reality is a "false belief", because ONLY true beliefs exist in reality.
You're contradicting yourself again. If you think my belief is false then you are agreeing that false beliefs exist.

No I am not "using ambiguous language again while continually" at all...
Yes you are, as I just showed you. You do it all the time, and I keep pointing out the ambiguities.

If "false beliefs" cannot be known to be truth in reality, then they are not real in reality either.
You're confusing act and object again. The object isn't real but the act is. A painting of an imaginary event is still a real painting, and an incorrect belief is still a real belief - even though the content of the painting or belief isn't real or true.

But you don't seem to know or understand how and why the truth and reality is known to you.
And yet I do.

Well if disbelieve in Allah, then that's not a belief but unbelief instead and a clear conflation on your part of belief and unbelief.
The conflation is yours. You are conflating your disbelief with the belief of others. I was referring to the latter, not the former.

In reality their "false belief" doesn't apply to me silly, it just affects and applies to them. Do you even know what you are talking about here?
The beliefs of Muslims don't have to 'apply' to you in order to exist. And so long as they exist, they must be either true or false. So which is it?

Islam doesn't apply to my belief in God, because I am not a Muslim silly. Why are you trying to apply someone else's "false belief" to someone who doesn't even share that "false belief"?
It doesn't apply to you. It applies to them, meaning they have a belief which must be either true or false. If you think their belief is true then you are a Muslim too. And if you think their belief is false then you are agreeing with us that false beliefs exist.
 

Tercon

Well-known member
Whereas everyone else is waiting for you to recognise that there is no barrier to things existing without being known to exist.

There are items in my sock drawer that only I know to exist. If I suddenly drop dead, those items continue to exist, even though no-one knows that they exist. Your assertion that there must be an over-arching mind that knows of everything that exists, is just that, an assertion. You have not shown any requirement for it.
Strawman, I have NOT said or implied in any way that a barrier exists between "things existing" and things "being known to exist". A matter of fact my position supports "things existing" and the necessity of believing mind in order to "being known to exist", because the truth is that ONLY way and place that the truth and reality can be known to exist is in and by a believing mind.
 

Nouveau

Well-known member
Strawman, I have NOT said or implied in any way that a barrier exists between "things existing" and things "being known to exist". A matter of fact my position supports "things existing" and the necessity of believing mind in order to "being known to exist", because the truth is that ONLY way and place that the truth and reality can be known to exist is in and by a believing mind.
Your accusation of strawmanning is itself a strawman. You appear to have completely missed the word "without" in what you were replying to.
 

Temujin

Well-known member
Strawman, I have NOT said or implied in any way that a barrier exists between "things existing" and things " WITHOUT being known to exist".
Did you not see this word? Are you deliberately misrepresenting me or did it just slip your mind? Try and display honesty and answer the question:
Is there a barrier preventing things from existing WITHOUT being known to exist?

A matter of fact my position supports "things existing" and the necessity of believing mind in order to "being known to exist", because the truth is that ONLY way and place that the truth and reality can be known to exist is in and by a believing mind.
Why are you wanting everyone's time, including your own posting this illiterate waffle, which when deciphered says nothing that hasn't already been agreed. To win an argument, you have to address the point in contention. This you consistently fail to do.
 

Tercon

Well-known member
You're contradicting yourself again. If you think my belief is false then you are agreeing that false beliefs exist.
Strawman and projection, as if I disbelieve your "false belief" exists in reality, then am I "agreeing that false beliefs exist" silly? Remember it is YOU who thinks that YOUR "false belief" exists in reality and not me at all.
You're confusing act and object again. The object isn't real but the act is.
No, I am just showing you how the truth and reality are known. If YOUR "object" of belief doesn't exist and YOU know it is a "false belief", then do you still believe that "belief" exists in reality?
A painting of an imaginary event is still a real painting, and an incorrect belief is still a real belief - even though the content of the painting or belief isn't real or true.
Reification, YOU are treating something abstract (belief) as a physical thing (painting) and pretending that they are known and experienced in the same way. When they are not.
And yet I do.
How come you don't know how and why the truth and reality are known then?
The conflation is yours. You are conflating your disbelief with the belief of others. I was referring to the latter, not the former.
Strawman and projection. Actually if I disbelieve what someone else believes, then that's not conflating but differentiating or doing the opposite silly. Like I said, you don't seem to be able to reason properly.
The beliefs of Muslims don't have to 'apply' to you in order to exist. And so long as they exist, they must be either true or false. So which is it?
It doesn't apply to you. It applies to them, meaning they have a belief which must be either true or false. If you think their belief is true then you are a Muslim too. And if you think their belief is false then you are agreeing with us that false beliefs exist.
But how are we to KNOW what Muslims believe exists in reality, when in reality belief is necessary in order to make the truth and reality known to us, and we disbelieve what Muslims believe rather then believe it? What you are suggesting is illogical to say the least.
 

5wize

Well-known member
No, I am just showing you how the truth and reality are known. If YOUR "object" of belief doesn't exist and YOU know it is a "false belief", then do you still believe that "belief" exists in reality?
Hey Edit per mod.... you did it again. We are talking about beliefs you hold that you don't know are false.
 
Last edited by a moderator:

Tercon

Well-known member
Did you not see this word? Are you deliberately misrepresenting me or did it just slip your mind? Try and display honesty and answer the question:
Is there a barrier preventing things from existing WITHOUT being known to exist?
Yup, it's called unbelief, as all knowledge of the truth and reality requires a believing mind. And without a believing mind the truth and reality cannot exist. Therefore, reality must be a believing mind, because outside of belief and a mind or a believing mind nothing is knowable in or about reality. Why? Because it can ONLY be known in and by a believing mind.
Why are you wanting everyone's time, including your own posting this illiterate waffle, which when deciphered says nothing that hasn't already been agreed. To win an argument, you have to address the point in contention. This you consistently fail to do.
Stop replying then silly.
 
Last edited:

Tercon

Well-known member
Because, as I said, you did not answer the question asked. You first misrepresented the question, then answered that instead.
No, I just showed how illogical it was to suggest the meaning of your question.
Again you answer the wrong question. We know that we cannot believe what we know not to be true. You were asked, and have failed to answer a different question:
Can anyone believe things that are not true?
Actually in reality no-one including you can "believe things that" you know "are not true" silly. You are refusing to deal with the truth and reality, but insist on wallowing around in your own illogical "false belief". Just don't expect everyone to follow you down that delusion.
 
Top