Where can the truth and reality be known to exist?

Temujin

Well-known member
Actually in reality no-one including you can "believe things that" you know "are not true" silly. You are refusing to deal with the truth and reality, but insist on wallowing around in your own illogical "false belief". Just don't expect everyone to follow you down that delusion.
Inserting the bolded phrase into my quote completely distorts the meaning and is tantamount to lying. You seem incapable of dealing honestly with the points put to you.

Belief or unbelief concern knowledge. Whether beliefs are true or not is not dependent on knowledge but on reality.
 

Nouveau

Well-known member
Strawman and projection, as if I disbelieve your "false belief" exists in reality, then am I "agreeing that false beliefs exist" silly? Remember it is YOU who thinks that YOUR "false belief" exists in reality and not me at all.
Again, it's contradictory for you to tell me both that I have false beliefs and that false beliefs don't exist. If they don't exist then I can't have them, just as you can't have a collection of unicorns in your yard.

No, I am just showing you how the truth and reality are known. If YOUR "object" of belief doesn't exist and YOU know it is a "false belief", then do you still believe that "belief" exists in reality?
Yes. The belief exists but the object of belief does not. That's what a false belief is. The belief is a state of mind, not a thing outside of the believer's head.

Reification, YOU are treating something abstract (belief) as a physical thing (painting) and pretending that they are known and experienced in the same way. When they are not.
No, Tercon. It was just an analogy. Paintings and beliefs are relevantly similar in that they both have an existence independent of their represented content, i.e. you can have a painting of something that never happened, just as you can have a belief about something that doesn't exist.

How come you don't know how and why the truth and reality are known then?
I do. You're the only one who struggles with this.

Strawman and projection. Actually if I disbelieve what someone else believes, then that's not conflating but differentiating or doing the opposite silly. Like I said, you don't seem to be able to reason properly.
Projection. You were conflating others' beliefs and your own by replying as if I had asked about the latter rather than the former.

But how are we to KNOW what Muslims believe exists in reality, when in reality belief is necessary in order to make the truth and reality known to us, and we disbelieve what Muslims believe rather then believe it? What you are suggesting is illogical to say the least.
You're just dodging the question. We know that Muslims believe in Allah. Unless you agree with them, making you a Muslim too, you must disagree. But that means you think their belief is false, and that false beliefs do therefore exist. A false belief exists whenever someone believes something that isn't true, and you agree that Muslims believe something that isn't true, right?
 

Tercon

Well-known member
Again, it's contradictory for you to tell me both that I have false beliefs and that false beliefs don't exist.
Okay, you're just plain deluded then, if you prefer that instead?
If they don't exist then I can't have them, just as you can't have a collection of unicorns in your yard.
Your "false belief" (delusion) exists the same way YOUR "collection of unicorns" exist in reality. They don't.
Yes. The belief exists but the object of belief does not.
If a "belief" doesn't have a "object of belief", then it a "false belief" and cannot be known to exist in reality either silly.
That's what a false belief is. The belief is a state of mind, not a thing outside of the believer's head.
You are conflating belief and unbelief, as "false belief" is like unbelief and not like a belief in reality. And it is belief that is a state of mind and not unbelief, because belief is the mental act of a mind and unbelief is just the lack of that mental act of the mind. Understand?
No, Tercon. It was just an analogy. Paintings and beliefs are relevantly similar in that they both have an existence independent of their represented content, i.e. you can have a painting of something that never happened, just as you can have a belief about something that doesn't exist.
If YOUR "paintings and beliefs" cannot be known to exist without the benefit of a mind, then YOUR "paintings and beliefs" must be the product of a mind.
I do. You're the only one who struggles with this.
Actually it is YOU who is struggling here with how and why the truth and reality is known to you.
Projection. You were conflating others' beliefs and your own by replying as if I had asked about the latter rather than the former.
If you are referring to a belief which you do not sure yourself, then in reality you are denoting YOUR unbelief and not your belief at all.
You're just dodging the question. We know that Muslims believe in Allah. Unless you agree with them, making you a Muslim too, you must disagree. But that means you think their belief is false, and that false beliefs do therefore exist.
No, that just makes Muslims exist. But if their belief in Allah is a "false belief", then that makes their "false belief" delusional, but they as people still exist.
A false belief exists whenever someone believes something that isn't true, and you agree that Muslims believe something that isn't true, right?
I know atheists like Muslims share something in common. One is a "false belief" in something called Allah and the other is atheist's "false belief" in atheism.
 

Nouveau

Well-known member
Okay, you're just plain deluded then, if you prefer that instead?
Insults won't help you.

Your "false belief" (delusion) exists the same way YOUR "collection of unicorns" exist in reality. They don't.
Then you must be wrong to claim that I have a false belief.

If a "belief" doesn't have a "object of belief", then it a "false belief" and cannot be known to exist in reality either silly.
Wrong. The act exists while the object does not. This is very simple.

You are conflating belief and unbelief, as "false belief" is like unbelief and not like a belief in reality. And it is belief that is a state of mind and not unbelief, because belief is the mental act of a mind and unbelief is just the lack of that mental act of the mind. Understand?
Yes, belief is a state of mind (exactly what I just told you) and it exists even where the content/object of that belief is wrong. False belief is not like unbelief. Unbelief is a lack of belief, whereas false belief is having a belief but being wrong.

If YOUR "paintings and beliefs" cannot be known to exist without the benefit of a mind, then YOUR "paintings and beliefs" must be the product of a mind.
Yes, of course they are products of a mind. The point was that in both cases the painting and belief exists, even where the the content/object of each does not.

If you are referring to a belief which you do not sure yourself, then in reality you are denoting YOUR unbelief and not your belief at all.
No. When I refer to another's belief, I am referring to that person's belief, regardless of whether or not I share it.

No, that just makes Muslims exist. But if their belief in Allah is a "false belief", then that makes their "false belief" delusional, but they as people still exist.
Of course they exist as people. So does their false belief. It is only Allah that does not exist. Their false belief exists as a state of mind.

I know atheists like Muslims share something in common. One is a "false belief" in something called Allah and the other is atheist's "false belief" in atheism.
No, atheism is a lack of belief, not a false belief. Theism is the false belief, and one shared by both Muslims and Christians. But at least you are again acknowledging false beliefs to exist.
 
D

Diogenes

Guest
No, atheism is a lack of belief, not a false belief. Theism is the false belief, and one shared by both Muslims and Christians. But at least you are again acknowledging false beliefs to exist.

An individual lacking a belief in God and theism being false are two separate things. The latter is an actual claim which atheists typically try to avoid.
 
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