rossh
Well-known member
Oh well, thanks for your help...
Where Christianity Diverges from Scripture
- Thread starter The Pixie
- Start date
But where does the bible say that the ten commandments etc applied to Abraham, or were they just man-made?
rossh
Well-known member
oh well?? so you both agree then, that Abraham has/had to obey all of the Laws from/of God, that are not yet even given to Moses, in the distant future.. How on earth did he manage that I wonder..
Asked and answered. Go back and read.
You're dodging my question.
rossh
Well-known member
lol, you are the one who has been asking that same question to all of us,,, lol they were about 250 years apart Moses is after Abraham..
Which is why the ten commandments etc are obviously just man-made, since it wasn't morally wrong for Noah and Abraham to have sexual relationships with their sisters Naamah and Sarah, or to commit adultery with Hagar.
And why it wasn't morally wrong for Abraham to be commanded to butcher and cook his son as a sacrificial meal.
And why it wasn't morally wrong for Cain-an to kill his brother Abel, or for Noah's father to murder a young man (Gen 4).
Which is why the ten commandments etc are just man-made.
So at least we agree there is no where in the Bible that just makes it clear. I guess that is progress.
How many times did you read it before you became a Christian?
But you cannot quote the verses because...
Excuses.
It is your opinion that it is "stupidity".
But all I see from you is excuses for why you cannot quote any verses to support your position. This is exactly what I would expect if your position is not Biblical.
You know how the scientific method works, right?
- You make a hypothesis: Certain claims by Christians are not Biblical
- You draw a prediction, a testable, necessary consequence of the hypothesis: Christians will consistently fail to support those claims with Bible verses
- You test the predictions: This thread
I did not say that.
Your case would look better if you could avoid twisting my words.
Well, we both agree you are wrong...
Wrong. The starting point should be "I do not know".
And just assuming a character in a book is always right is just plain dumb.
How do you work that one out?
Because in your arrogance there is no way your could be wrong.
According to you I am arrogant if I qualify my opinion with it "seems" to me. But here you are proclaiming that your opinion is "the truth".
So your argument is that wherever something "seems" to be true, it must necessarily lead to death, whatever the claim is?
That is hilarious.
I earlier said:
I have no idea where that comes from.
Do you?
There you go twisting my words again.
If you had truth on your side, you would not need to do that.
I earlier said:
Supposedly you have done that; you have read the bible for the purpose of understanding and learning. So how come you cannot answer the question?
I will try again, mainly to emphasise how Christians are evading so consistently in this thread. Is keeping the Sabbath part of the ceremonial law? If so, how is that clear in the Ten Commandments?
I am skipping a chunk here and it is just you ranting against a straw man. But then we actually get to three links. Hopefully they will quote or cite actual verses...
Hmm, well the first is the same as the last, so only two in fact. And - not your fault, of course - but I cannot read the article in Europe for GDPR reasons, so the web site says.
God has three kinds of laws in the Bible
I am responding to a letter that Mike Smith wrote. He notes several scriptures, and is not putting them in their proper context. One must understand that there are threewww.pantagraph.com
Food Regulation in Biblical Law
dash.harvard.edu
God has three kinds of laws in the Bible
I am responding to a letter that Mike Smith wrote. He notes several scriptures, and is not putting them in their proper context. One must understand that there are three
But the second is interesting.
According to Maimonides, the sages believed that the commandments are not arbitrary and do have an underlying purpose: "Our Sages do not think that such precepts have no cause whatever, and serve no purpose; for this would lead us to assume that God's actions are purposeless. On the contrary, they hold that even these ordinances have a cause, and are certainly intended for some use, although it is not known to us; owing either to the deficiency of our knowledge or the weakness of our intellect."
This is a great point. Either the prohibition on eating pork and wearing a garment of more than one type of thread is arbitrary, and God gave the law basically to be jerk to the Hebrews, or they are important. And if they are important to God, who do Christians ignore them?
Are they for good health? The web page is pretty clear that that is not so.
Anthropologist Marvin Harris sees no special health benefit to the biblical food laws:
All domestic animals are potentially hazardous to human health. Undercooked beef, for example, is a prolific source of tape worms, which can grow to a length of sixteen to twenty feet inside the human gut, induce a severe case of anemia, and lower the body's resistance to other diseases. Cattle, goat, and sheep transmit the bacterial disease known as brucellosis, whose symptoms include fever, aches, pains, and lassitude. The most dangerous disease transmitted by cattle, sheep, and goats is anthrax, a fairly common disease of both animals and humans in Europe and Asia until the introduction of Louis Pasteur's anthrax vaccine in 1881.
It goes on to suggest an ethical or moral basis, and I have to say, I find that quite convincing. It goes on to the "Aesthetic Explanation", which to me seems deeply connected. I read:
Milgrom notes that the pig in particular was widely reviled throughout the ancient Near East. He cites an Assyrian tablet dated in the sixth year of the reign of Sargon ~9I that reads: "The pig is unholy.. bespattering his backside, making the streets smell, polluting the houses. The pig is not fit for a temple, lacks sense, is not allowed to tread on pavements, [and is] an abomination to all the gods. "
That seems to fit perfectly with the earlier:
If man takes on the behavior characteristic of the animals which he consumes, according to Philo's understanding of the biblical food regulations, man's behavior will be in compliance with the noblest of ethical principles.
It also discusses "The Cultural Identity or Cultic Explanation" which I do find appealing - but from an atheist point of view. It makes sense that the Hebrew priests would invent such rules to keep the people part of the cult, in a manner not dissimilar to how modern cults operate - trying to build as much separation between cult members and outsiders.
I think this explains why they have the laws, while the content comes down to what was thought to be spiritually clean because of its lifestyle. No carrion eating birds, no pigs that wallow in mud. The prohibition against wearing a garment of mixed thread is symbolic of keeping the Hebrews separate from other tribes.
That is all well and good, but it does not say why these laws no longer need to be kept. And more importantly it never actually supports your position that the Bible says there are three divisions of the law.
The rest of your post is more ranting against that straw man.
Tetsugaku
Well-known member
One critical reading would be more productive. Maybe this has been pointed out to you before?
SteveB
Well-known member
It's actually quite clear.... once you actually read the bible enough to see it.
This of course means that you actually have to read the bible for the purpose of understanding, learning and awareness.
0.
I wasn't looking for religion, divinity, or knowledge.
I was looking for Life.
Scripture doesn’t limit its reasons against sin to “just because it’s wrong.” It also includes “because it’s stupid” since sin’s consequences are so severe. “For the simple are killed by their turning away, and the complacency of fools destroys them; but whoever listens to me will dwell secure and will be at ease, without dread of disaster” (Proverbs 1:32-33, ESV).
You're the one who refuses to read.
Your hypothesis may well be confirmed, but it just proves that you don't actually want to know the truth. You only want to win arguments.
If you ever decide to learn the truth, come follow Jesus.
And yet you did.
I don't need to twist anything. You're achieving that all by yourself.
It's exactly why I don't trust you either.
YHVH on the other hand is completely reliable. And demonstrates himself as such to those who take him seriously.
2Ch 16:9 WEB For Yahweh’s eyes run back and forth throughout the whole earth, to show himself strong in the behalf of them whose heart is perfect toward him.
As such, I'd say that the problem here is that you are excluding yourself from knowing the truth.
If I didn't, I would have.
You however keep claiming that you do know, and that's obviously not true.
Yet you depend entirely on your own bias, which is even dumber.
Furthermore, you're also the one who keeps saying that you know YHVH is just a character in a book.
So, it's pretty clear that you are the one who keeps pushing a lie to support your ignorance.
Patiently.
It takes time to learn the truth.
You clearly aren't interested in the truth, because you keep promoting your beliefs as truth.
If YHVH was wrong, I wouldn't be talking about him.
It's because he's right that I've learned how wrong I am, and that he's trustworthy. So, since it's your life, you have to decide what matters more to you.
I'm not bothered that you think I'm wrong, and need me to be arrogant.
Considering that you are the one who is relying on your own bias, and I'm relying entirely on YHVH and not relying on myself, and the definition of arrogance is to trust yourself more than is reasonable, it's pretty clear that you are the one who is arrogant.
If you think you know better than YHVH, go for it. It is after all your life, and your eternity.
Just remember that it's YHVH's home you're being invited to spend your eternity in.
To those who are perishing, you're right.
The fool is full of their own ways, so yep!
Looks like a perspective to me.
You're the one who keeps saying that you don't need to trust YHVH to know you're right because you're smarter than those who do trust YHVH.
Oh. Well then. I'll go right ahead and skip a bunch of yours too. That'll make this a more efficient discussion. You are after all quite clear that you only want to win.
Right, you read the Bible zero times before becoming a Christian.
This is vitally important to realise. You were already a Christian before you had read the Bible. Therefore you necessarily read it through a Christian filter. And even then, you apparently had to read it several times before you could twist the words to mean what you were told they meant.
Think about that Steve.
So God tortures for eternity people who are stupid... even though he created them stupid?
Do you ever actually think this through, Steve?
Do you honestly think it is okay to make stupid people suffer because they are stupid?
You are the one who refuses to think
Thank you. That is really all my point was in the other thread, and it is heartening that you can acknowledge it is confirmed.
No, Steve. If the hypothesis is confirmed, that means the hypothesis is right.
Think about it, Steve. It is not difficult.
But you cannot quote me saying that because....
Because it is a fantasy in your head. Look, I get that you are utterly convinced you are right, but when you trot out nonsense after nonsense, you should realise that you just loose more and more credibility.
Where did I say I know that, Steve?
If I keep saying it, you must be able to find a few quotes right? Just search the thread for the word "book". In fact, I will get you started - here is a search of the forum for every time I used the word "book".
Hmm, that is odd. I can see one time in this thread, when I said "just assuming a character in a book is always right is just plain dumb". I never said I know God is a character in a book.
Are you telling porkies, Steve? Surely not!
Big words from a guy who just is pretending I keep saying I know God is a character in a book.
Your unsupported accusation of lying - I am not even sure what supposed lie you think I am pushing - follows directly from your own dishonest twisting. Ah, but of course it is okay when a Christian does it, right?
CharismaticLady
Well-known member
Satan does his own thing except what God will not allow him to do which if you discern carefully is what Job is all about.
This is true, otherwise when Jesus returns He could not bring with Him those who sleep in Jesus.
1 Thes. 4:
14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who sleep in Jesus.
1 John 5:7
7 For there are three that bear witness in heaven: the Father, the Word, and the Holy Spirit; and these three are one.
John 1:14
14 And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we beheld His glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father, full of grace and truth.
Col. 2:9
9 For in Him dwells all the fullness of the Godhead bodily
James 2:
15 If a brother or sister is naked and destitute of daily food, 16 and one of you says to them, “Depart in peace, be warmed and filled,” but you do not give them the things which are needed for the body, what does it profit? 17 Thus also faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead.
His divine nature which is invisible died that day and he took on the nature of Satan. What died was his innocence and spirit and he lost immortality. He became mortal and could die. The first thing he noticed was that he was naked. That is why we (our nature) must be born again so that we may once again partake of the divine nature and take on immortality of spirit. Our body must still die and itself take on immortality at the resurrection.
Jesus fulfilled the Old Covenant Ex. 34:28. But the eternal royal law of Love God with all your heart, mind and strength and your neighbor as yourself was written on our hearts which are no longer surface laws by the letter, but to the very core of us by the Spirit and changes our nature to partake of the divine nature of God
.
Romans 3:31
31 Do we then make void the law through faith? Certainly not! On the contrary, we establish the law.
Romans 8:1-9
There is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus, who do not walk according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit. 2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has made me free from the law of sin and death. 3 For what the law could not do in that it was weak through the flesh, God did by sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, on account of sin: He condemned sin in the flesh, 4 that the righteous requirement of the law might be fulfilled in us who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit. 5 For those who live according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who live according to the Spirit, the things of the Spirit. 6 For to be carnally minded is death, but to be spiritually minded is life and peace. 7 Because the [c]carnal mind is enmity against God; for it is not subject to the law of God, nor indeed can be. 8 So then, those who are in the flesh cannot please God. 9 But you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. Now if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he is not His.
1 John 3:5
5 And you know that He was manifested to take away our sins, and in Him there is no sin.
1 John 3:21-24
21 Beloved, if our heart does not condemn us, we have confidence toward God. 22 And whatever we ask we receive from Him, because we keep His commandments and do those things that are pleasing in His sight. 23 And this is His commandment: that we should believe on the name of His Son Jesus Christ and love one another, as He gave us commandment. 24 Now he who keeps His commandments abides in Him, and He in him. And by this we know that He abides in us, by the Spirit whom He has given us.
32 “Now learn this parable from the fig tree: When its branch has already become tender and puts forth leaves, you know that summer is near. 33 So you also, when you see all these things, know that it is near—at the doors! 34 Assuredly, I say to you, this generation will by no means pass away till all these things take place. 35 Heaven and earth will pass away, but My words will by no means pass away.
Jesus told them what to look for, so when they start happening, that generation will see the second coming. CONTEXT, CONTEXT, CONTEXT. It's not that hard to understand.
I am not aware of this theme anywhere in scripture. Do you mind referencing this claim?
The creature that Satan turned himself into was not how we now know as a snake. It was probably beautiful with legs and probably wings. What we see now is after the curse. Before the devil was called Satan, he was Lucifer,
Ez. 28:
“You were the seal of perfection,
Full of wisdom and perfect in beauty.
13 You were in Eden, the garden of God;
Every precious stone was your covering:
The sardius, topaz, and diamond,
Beryl, onyx, and jasper,
Sapphire, turquoise, and emerald with gold.
The workmanship of your timbrels and pipes
Was prepared for you on the day you were created.
14 “You were the anointed cherub who covers;
I established you;
You were on the holy mountain of God;
You walked back and forth in the midst of fiery stones.
15 You were perfect in your ways from the day you were created,
Till iniquity was found in you.
16 “By the abundance of your trading
You became filled with violence within,
And you sinned;
Therefore I cast you as a profane thing
Out of the mountain of God;
And I destroyed you, O covering cherub,
From the midst of the fiery stones.
17 “Your heart was lifted up because of your beauty;
You corrupted your wisdom for the sake of your splendor;
I cast you to the ground,
I laid you before kings,
That they might gaze at you.
18 “You defiled your sanctuaries
By the multitude of your iniquities,
By the iniquity of your trading;
Therefore I brought fire from your midst;
It devoured you,
And I turned you to ashes upon the earth
In the sight of all who saw you.
19 All who knew you among the peoples are astonished at you;
You have become a horror,
And shall be no more forever.” ’ ”
Isaiah 14:12
“How you are fallen from heaven,
O Lucifer, son of the morning!
How you are cut down to the ground,
You who weakened the nations!
The above verses are about Satan. The Kings of Babylon and Tyre are references to Satan and neither were in the Garden of Eden. LOL
So why does Job 42:11 explicitly say that God was responsible for all the troubles that Job suffered?
Job is trying to address why bad things happen to good people, and it does so by saying the bad things are done by God - though his agent Satan - to test your faith.
Most Christians seem to believe that when a righteous person dies, he goes to heaven. If you do not then, great, this does not apply to you.
That is an interesting one, as there is good evidence it was a later addition, it being absent from the oldest manuscripts. In a sense, then, you are right. There is support in the Bible for the trinity. However, it is there because someone in the fourth century added it, once Christianity had invented it.
Neither indicate Jesus ands the Holy Spirit are equal to God.
Not quite sure of your point here. Do you think this says you can keep all the material goods you like?
Jesus stated his followers should give up their worldly goods. Why does a letter purportedly written by James trump the words of Jesus?
Adam was never immortal; he would become immortal if he ate from the Tree of Life. He missed that opportunity, but missing the opportunity for immortality is not the same as dying.
Genesis says nothing about Adam's divine nature. God did not say his divine nature would die, he said Adam would die.
What does it actually mean to "fulfil" an ever-lasting covenant, and how does that lead to the covenant no longer being valid?
Why did Jesus fulfilling the covenant repel the law on eating port, but not adultery?
Nevertheless, I do not understand. Are you saying the second coming has already happened?
Read Genesis 1. It only really makes sense if you understand that the world is flat, resting on pillars with a solid dome over it, and surrounded by primordial waters.
Genesis 1:6 And God said, Let there be a firmament in the midst of the waters, and let it divide the waters from the waters.
Bear inmind at this point there was already day and night - but no sun. The sun is added later - its purpose is to help tell what time of day it is; it is just a light travelling across the firmament:
Genesis 1:14 And God said, Let there be lights in the firmament of the heaven to divide the day from the night; and let them be for signs, and for seasons, and for days, and years:
Some other verses on the firmament
Genesis 8:2 The fountains also of the deep and the windows of heaven were stopped, and the rain from heaven was restrained;
Psalm 19:4 Their line is gone out through all the earth, and their words to the end of the world. In them hath he set a tabernacle for the sun,
5 Which is as a bridegroom coming out of his chamber, and rejoiceth as a strong man to run a race.
6 His going forth is from the end of the heaven, and his circuit unto the ends of it: and there is nothing hid from the heat thereof.
Job 37:18 Hast thou with him spread out the sky, which is strong, and as a molten looking glass?
Note that a looking glass at that time would be highly polished metal, so this is indicating a metal-like dome.
The earth is stood on pillars:
1 Samuel 2:8 He raiseth up the poor out of the dust, and lifteth up the beggar from the dunghill, to set them among princes, and to make them inherit the throne of glory: for the pillars of the earth are the Lord's, and he hath set the world upon them.
Job 9:6 Which shaketh the earth out of her place, and the pillars thereof tremble.
Proverbs 8:28 when he made firm the skies above, when he established[d] the fountains of the deep,
The starts are just little lights stuck to the firmament, and might become unstuck and fall to earth.
Mark 13:24 But in those days, after that tribulation, the sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light,
25 And the stars of heaven shall fall, and the powers that are in heaven shall be shaken.
Revelation 6:13 And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.
Revelation 12:4 And his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven, and did cast them to the earth: and the dragon stood before the woman which was ready to be delivered, for to devour her child as soon as it was born.
The point is that in Genesis it is clearly a snake. The alternative is that God erroneously cursed all snakes for something Satan did.
The word "Lucifer" does not even appear in modern Bibles. This is another example of something Christians think is in the Bible, but is not.
No, the Kings of Babylon and Tyre are references to Kings of Babylon and Tyre. They lived in palaces with wonderful gardens that a likened to Eden. Read the context. What is it you said? CONTEXT, CONTEXT, CONTEXT.
Ez 25 is a judgement on various gentile nations. Then in Ez 26 we get to Tyre.
7 For the Lord God says this: “Behold, I am going to bring upon Tyre from the north Nebuchadnezzar king of Babylon, king of kings, with horses, chariots, cavalry, and [d]a great army.
This was an actual historical event, a thirteen year siege mentioned by Josephus, dated to around 585 to 573 BC. Chapters 27 and 28 are a scornful lament to sing to the king of Tyre, Ithobaal III, when the city eventually fell, though as Ez 29:18 indicates, the city survived, and the Babylonians turned their attentions to Egypt instead.
Again and again these chapters show they are about the king of Tyre. And there is no mention of Satan at all.
Now look at Isaiah. Chapters 13 and 14 are about Babylon, other nearby chapters are about other gentile nations that were threatening Judah when Isaiah was around. And again, no mention of Satan.
The idea that these are about Satan is something Christianity has invented.
So do you, and more often than not.
For starters, your point #1 falsely quotes what scripture says about Satan. So right out the box you falsely quote scripture.
Is 45:1-7
SteveB
Well-known member
Of course you don't know what lie you're pushing.
Because you believe the lie you're pushing is the truth.
1Jn 1:10 If we say that we haven’t sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.
1Jn 2:4 One who says, “I know him,” and doesn’t keep his commandments, is a liar, and the truth isn’t in him.
1Jn 2:22 Who is the liar but he who denies that Jesus is the Christ? This is the Antichrist, he who denies the Father and the Son.
1Jn 4:20 If a man says, “I love God,” and hates his brother, he is a liar; for he who doesn’t love his brother whom he has seen, how can he love God whom he has not seen?
1Jn 5:10 He who believes in the Son of God has the testimony in himself. He who doesn’t believe God has made him a liar, because he has not believed in the testimony that God has given concerning his Son.
But I am not pretending to follow the Bible, Christians do. Can you see the difference?
Then tell me how you understand Job 42:11. I see no way to read it that does not say that all the trouble caused by Satan was God's responsibility.
I have pointed this out several times on this thread, and no one can show me how I am wrong.
Ironically, merely declaring I am wrong does exactly the reverse! It shows that (1) you cannot counter my claim, so supports my view of what the Bible says; and (2) Christianity holds to a non-Biblical position on this.
What do you think that shows?
I will just quote the last two verses:
Isaiah 456 So that people may know from the rising to the setting of the sun
That there is no one besides Me.
I am the Lord, and there is no one else,
7 The One forming light and creating darkness,
Causing [e]well-being and creating disaster;
I am the Lord who does all these things.
You think something saying God created the darkness and disasters helps you? I think those verses support my position! It says, as it does in Job, that God is the root cause of all bad things as well as good.
So thanks for your help, I guess...