Where did reality come from?

Ficciones

Active member
No. You just need to actually know what you're talking about. Otherwise you're just spouting BS out your derriere.
You don't get to assume ideas you can't actually demonstrate.
Fine. We can use your own beliefs.

Do you believe that something can come from nothing?
 

SteveB

Well-known member
Fine. We can use your own beliefs.

Do you believe that something can come from nothing?
I believe that there is One who creates everything from his own being.

In Psalm 33 we read

6 By the word of the LORD the heavens were made, And all the host of them by the breath of His mouth.​
7 He gathers the waters of the sea together as a heap; He lays up the deep in storehouses.​
8 Let all the earth fear the LORD; Let all the inhabitants of the world stand in awe of Him.​
9 For He spoke, and it was done; He commanded, and it stood fast.​

In John 1:3 it's written

All things were made through Him, and without Him nothing was made that was made.​

In Ephesians 3:9 it states
................ God who created all things through Jesus Christ;​

In Colossians 1 we read

16 For by Him all things were created that are in heaven and that are on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers. All things were created through Him and for Him. 17 And He is before all things, and in Him all things consist.​

In Hebrews 1:2-3 we read

2 has in these last days spoken to us by His Son, whom He has appointed heir of all things, through whom also He made the worlds; 3 who being the brightness of His glory and the express image of His person, and upholding all things by the word of His power, when He had by Himself purged our sins, sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high,​

All of which I find VERY curious, because it states in Genesis 1


In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.​

So, even YHVH himself says that reality had a beginning.
We see that without Jesus, nothing that exists, could exist, and that he sustains everything by the word of his power.

The only reality that always existed is YHVH himself. As Moses tells us in Psalm 90

Before the mountains were brought forth,​
Or ever You had formed the earth and the world,​
Even from everlasting to everlasting, You are God.​
 

Ficciones

Active member
The only reality that always existed is YHVH himself.

Very good. We both believe that reality has always existed, but you want to single out a portion of reality and call it YHVH.

But if reality has always existed, that means it didn't need to be created. So why postulate a creator?
 

SteveB

Well-known member
Please define the word, irony.
which source would you like?

From Mirriam Webster

irony​

noun
iro·ny | \ ˈī-rə-nē​
also ˈī(-ə)r-nē
\​
plural ironies​

Definition of irony


1a : the use of words to express something other than and especially the opposite of the literal meaning​
b : a usually humorous or sardonic literary style or form characterized by irony​
c : an ironic expression or utterance​

2a(1) : incongruity between the actual result of a sequence of events and the normal or expected result​

(2) : an event or result marked by such incongruity​
b : incongruity between a situation developed in a drama and the accompanying words or actions that is understood by the audience but not by the characters in the play
— called also dramatic irony​

3 : a pretense of ignorance and of willingness to learn from another assumed in order to make the other's false conceptions conspicuous by adroitquestioning
— called also Socratic irony​

From Webster's 1828 dictionary.

I'RONY, adjective [from iron.] Made or consisting of iron; partaking of iron; as irony chains; irony particles.​
1. Resembling iron; hard.​
I'RONY, [Latin ironia; Gr. a dissembler in speech.]​
A mode of speech expressing a sense contrary to that which the speaker intends to convey; as, Nero was a very virtuous prince; Pope Hildebrand was remarkable for his meekness and humility. when irony is uttered, the dissimulation is generally apparent from the manner of speaking, as by a smile or an arch look, or perhaps by an affected gravity of countenance. irony in writing may also be detected by the manner of expression.​

From Cambridge--- your very own university's source. Too much to post, because of the examples of use.


A literary source.

 

SteveB

Well-known member
Very good. We both believe that reality has always existed, but you want to single out a portion of reality and call it YHVH.

But if reality has always existed, that means it didn't need to be created. So why postulate a creator?
Except YHVH is a person, not a thing.
 

SteveB

Well-known member
if reality has always existed then there's no person required to act as a willful agent to create it. It just is.
This is your problem.
You assume you know what you're talking about, without any evidence, beyond a circular argument.
 

Ficciones

Active member
This is your problem.
You assume you know what you're talking about, without any evidence, beyond a circular argument.

Since we both agree that reality has always existed, it's now YOUR problem. Why dress reality up in a person-costume? How do you justify that?
 

SteveB

Well-known member
Since we both agree that reality has always existed, it's now YOUR problem. Why dress reality up in a person-costume? How do you justify that?
I'm not dressing it up.
YHVH is the one who has said throughout the entirety of the bible he's always existed.
So, I disagree that it's my problem.
It's your problem to prove that YHVH is NOT a person, and has not always existed, while reality has.
 

Ficciones

Active member
It's your problem to prove that YHVH is NOT a person, and has not always existed, while reality has.

We both agree that reality has always existed. Let's keep that straight.

Where we disagree is whether reality is fundamentally personal. I don't see why that should be. The usual argument is that a creator is required to explain why reality exists. I've demonstrated why that isn't the case.
 

SteveB

Well-known member
We both agree that reality has always existed. Let's keep that straight.

Where we disagree is whether reality is fundamentally personal.
Ok.

I don't see why that should be.
Sounds like a personal problem. First deal with the fact that your lack of sight means you expect us to believe that you're right.


The usual argument is that a creator is required to explain why reality exists. I've demonstrated why that isn't the case.
the reality of the the Creator's existence is demonstrative that what you don't see is simply a personal problem.
 

Ficciones

Active member
Ok.

Sounds like a personal problem. First deal with the fact that your lack of sight means you expect us to believe that you're right.

the reality of the the Creator's existence is demonstrative that what you don't see is simply a personal problem.

If all you have left is personal attacks in lieu of reasoning, I guess this discussion is over.

Thanks, and have a great day!
 

SteveB

Well-known member
If all you have left is personal attacks in lieu of reasoning, I guess this discussion is over.

Thanks, and have a great day!
You're the one who said you think reality cannot have a personal basis.
That sounds like you have a PERSONAL problem.
I.e., an issue with what the concept of PERSONAL actually consists of.

So, if you don't get it, then I'd say the discussion was over before it started.
 

Nouveau

Well-known member
You're the one who said you think reality cannot have a personal basis.
That sounds like you have a PERSONAL problem.
I.e., an issue with what the concept of PERSONAL actually consists of.

So, if you don't get it, then I'd say the discussion was over before it started.
Do you think God is real, i.e. a part of reality? And has God always existed?

If you answer Yes to both then you are agreeing with the OP that reality as a whole cannot have come from anywhere/anything/anyone.
 

SteveB

Well-known member
Do you think God is real, i.e. a part of reality? And has God always existed?
the God whom the bible says his name is YHVH..... he made what we know as reality.
YHVH has always existed.
As we read in Psalm 90.

Before the mountains were brought forth,
Or ever You had formed the earth and the world,
Even from everlasting to everlasting, You are God.

If you answer Yes to both then you are agreeing with the OP that reality as a whole cannot have come from anywhere/anything/anyone.
Just because you don't see the truth, does not mean what you think is truth actually true.
We read in Hebrews 1:2-3 that Jesus sustains everything that exists.
So, it does in fact come from a SOMEONE.
We read this several times, throughout the bible.
 

Nouveau

Well-known member
the God whom the bible says his name is YHVH..... he made what we know as reality.
YHVH has always existed.
As we read in Psalm 90.

Before the mountains were brought forth,
Or ever You had formed the earth and the world,
Even from everlasting to everlasting, You are God.
So that's a Yes to both questions, meaning you agree with the OP that reality as a whole - i.e. including God - could not have come from anywhere/anything/anyone.

We read in Hebrews 1:2-3 that Jesus sustains everything that exists.
So, it does in fact come from a SOMEONE.
We read this several times, throughout the bible.
But you said God is part of reality, so who did God come from?
 
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