Aaron, we’ve seen you argue with your fellow Mormons against those exact points you raise here. No Christian has said you can live an unrepentantly immoral life. You know that. Christ’s Grace saves us and changes our hearts, which results in a change of behavior. Unlike in mormonism, which teaches that works come first.
I argue with fellow mormons that claim the baseline of qualifying for grace is the ten commandments. And I also defend "faith alone" theology as Christians understand it. Yet, it's posts like Bonnie's, which take an exaggerated other end on the "effort" spectrum, which is why mormons on this board believe "faith alone" means "easy grace" (ie. "no effort required").
Are you referring to works as baptism, which is an outward expression of an inward commitment of accepting Jesus Christ as our Savior?
Bonnie didn’t say that.
I'm referring to the Mormon doctrine of ”after all we can do.”
Christ can give grace to whoever He wants… including Saul who was persecuting the saints, and a thief on a cross.
What about it? Can you answer the questions I asked Bonnie?
Who said he couldn't?
Paul persecuted the saints in ignorance, and he certainly did all he could do when he learned the truth.
I'm pretty sure the thief did all he could do.
Can you answer mine? Bonnie didn’t say what you accused her of.
Mormonism says you have to do everything you can first. Including your example of baptism, among many other things.
Yes, after he had a regenerated heart and was changed and saved.
Nothing. But Mormons here say he didn’t go to paradise/heaven with Christ because he didn’t “do” anything, he only believed.
Regardless of what your definition of what a church is, there can be only one truth and therefore only one true church. Whatever church teaches that truth is the one true church and there can be no other. That's a logical fact.
Again, you can believe whatever you want, but that doesn't make it true. Jesus lives in the hearts of those who follow him.
I agree, there is none. Yet it appears that most people who claim they believe spend a lot of time wiggling. Jesus finished his work, not yours. The true believer in Christ will walk in the light as he walked in the light. Trying to wiggle out of that will not lead to salvation.
The opportunity for salvation is a gift and any person that lays hold of that gift can receive salvation through Christ. Those who try to wiggle out of doing this or that cannot have it.
That's not hard. What is there to remember? Regardless of what your church teaches you, it's right even if it doesn't agree with any other church out there. All you all have to remember is that Jesus did it all and the work is finished... Oh, and that the Mormons are going to hell. LOL. See how easy that was? But it doesn't matter what you believe if it's not true.
Like I said, believing something doesn't make it true.
And neither do the Catholics. I have always wondered why none of the churches that came out of the early church look anything like the church Jesus established. Not one. Not until the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints was established. It's almost like saying that Jesus didn't get it right. He didn't know what he was doing. There was no Pope in the church.
And they would be wrong.
That is so funny. Anyone who's been paying attention to the arguments that you have with fellow Mormons know that you're talking about me because no one else has said that but me. Your argument with Mormons is far more involved than that. You have made your own religion and called it Mormonism. The fact remains and is yet to be explained by any of our critics and you, what did Jesus mean when he said that those whose deeds are good will be resurrected to life? Now our critics, has I understand it, believe that that means they won't be judged and they somehow get a pass. But the scriptures don't support that idea either. There's no caveat in Christ's statement if you're going to be resurrected you will be judged and you will be judged according to your works and if they were good you'll be resurrected to life and if they were evil you'll be resurrected the damnation. So it appears that what we do in life definitely has consequences that affect our salvation. There's no escaping simple biblical facts.
"I bless you to replace belligerence with beseeching, animosity with understanding, and contention with peace." (President Nelson, Apr 2023)
if you're wrong you're wrong. They can claim that they established their religion on a foundation of dead prophets and apostles. And I would agree with that. That's what they did. Their foundation is just as dead as those apostles and Prophets. Truth is brutal all by itself, especially when what you believe is false. There's nothing I can do about that.
See above.
It gets it wrong by its very definition of "grace"--true grace--God's favor--is UNdeserved! We can do nothing to merit it. It is the "gift of God." We can do NOTHING to deserve what is UNmerited! Not even good works, as Paul writes in Titus 3: "He saves us, NOT on account of works which we have done in righteousness"--that would be good works, correct?--"but on account of His mercy."
Yeah, I doubt many pay attention.
Why my religion? Unlike you, I can actually cite multiple sources to justify my beliefs.
I'll let the critics defend themselves.
I'll refer to the JST translation: "JST John 5:29 … they who have done good, in the resurrection of the just; and they who have done evil, in the resurrection of the unjust."
AoF # 8 We believe the Bible to be the word of God as far as it is translated correctly.
And yet, you're not the ultimate authority and discerner of truth, only God is.
Or rather, maybe there's nothing you should do about that:
Titus 1:15
I'm pretty sure the common ground is that we believe the Bible to be the word of God. It says so in our articles of faith.
That's your opinion
Can you be more specific on what the problem is? I'm not seeing it.
Of course there’s a judgment. People who do evil things and don’t follow Christ will not be with Him. But you want to judge other Christians who believe in Christ, but don’t follow Mormon rules which are different than the gospel Christ gave us.
Feel free to clarify in contrast to my words if you care to be understood.
Yes.
Regardless of it being undeserved, we still need to receive it.
Great example! I'm asking you the question. You tell me.
I believe In asked you the question, are you just going to parrot it back to me?
Oh, ok. So we don't need to walk in the newness of life then. We just consider ourselves alive while IN our sins. I guess my fellow Mormons describe you correctly. Joseph Smith is saved along with his 14 wives since there are no requirements whatsoever. Just profess Jesus, but don't do his will. That truly is a very gracious God you believe in, doling out salvation with no effectual change or repentance - the truly undeserving indeed. It's also very useless - and umbiblical.
I don't see anything in there about being saved in our sins. In contrast, I see that we are made dead to sin, walking in the newness of life, not to mention it talks about baptism as well.I suggest you read Romans 6; that is my answer to you. about living as we please, etc.:
Bible Gateway passage: Romans 6 - New International Version
Dead to Sin, Alive in Christ - What shall we say, then? Shall we go on sinning so that grace may increase? By no means! We are those who have died to sin; how can we live in it any longer? Or don’t you know that all of us who were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death? We were...www.biblegateway.com
No, but one receives it.
Yes. That was something Jesus didn't have to do. That doesn't mean we remain in our sins after we've received the gift of the atonement.
Yes. But this is a red herring. Of course it's all a gift, but we must possess/obtain it and have faith.
Wow. Redundant much? Apperantly your saying that grace is something that is bestowed on someone without the person even knowing they received it. We just get grace somehow, continue sinning...all is well. (Because, according to you, if we did anything that would be earning it, and then we're adding to Christ's work.) How rediculous the hoops Christians must jump through to deny the necessity of works.
On brother! You've completely failed to recognize the biblical standard of obedience to the faith, so now you have to go try an grasp some win by deliberately mischaracterizing my beliefs by parroting your cultic belief of anti-mormonism.
Hebrews 1:1God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets, 2Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;
