Where does Grace come into the picture in Mormonism?

[Erundur]

Why are you arguing with us if you believe in the Trinity and every verse of the Bible and reject false doctrines?

Isn't that what this board is for? Am I not allowed to disagree with you and reject false doctrines?

 

[Erundur]

Of course you do. But your church is a pseudo-Christian cult and they always, always misrepresent the Person and work of Jesus Christ.

So you think that saying Jesus Christ is a false Christ accurately represents the Person and work of Jesus Christ? Does the Bible support your position?

 

[brotherofJared]

righteousness grounded in trusting says

This is they key to that whole passage. Only those who do good will be raised to life, period. Walking in the light as Jesus walked in the light. If you can't do that then kiss salvation good bye.

This, as it says above, needs to be a vocal/verbal expression voiced to people, another person, to the local congregation by each of us

As it says, they need to act in righteousness in faith trusting. Once again, we have our critics relying on 4 or 5 words while they ignore the rest of the scriptures.

I declare that I believe and confess Yeshua, Gods only true flesh and blood Son, as MY Lord and as MY Savior!

LOL good luck with that. Those whose deeds are evil will be raised to the resurrection of the damned. Your words will not save you.

 

[brotherofJared]

8 What, then, does it say? "The word is near you, in your mouth and in your heart."l that is, the word about trust which we proclaim, namely,
9 that if you acknowledge publicly with your mouth that Yeshua is Lord and trust in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be delivered.
10 For with the heart one goes on trusting and thus continues toward righteousness, while with the mouth one keeps on making public acknowledgement and thus continues toward deliverance.
Amen..

Already answered and addressed. It doesn't matter what you claim to believe. If it's not true, it cannot save anyone.

If you would have life, keep the commandments. That's the truth as spoken by Jesus Himself.

 

[brotherofJared]

Why are you arguing with us

It's pretty obvious that he's not arguing with you all. He's just as lost as the rest of you.

 

[brotherofJared]

Isn't that what this board is for? Am I not allowed to disagree with you and reject false doctrines?

It's against the rules for born agains to argue with other born agains. But, it's pretty obvious that @rossh is not arguing or disagreeing.

 

[Janice Bower]

Isn't that what this board is for? Am I not allowed to disagree with you and reject false doctrines?

When someone asks a question you shouldn't answer with a question. I didn't say anything about Carm's rules.

 

[Aaron32]

Obviously, you haven't.

What am I "obviously" not paying attention to?

 

[Aaron32]

As I said, your religion is not the same as that taught in the Church.

Restating your claim isn't evidence.

There's not a single word in that translation, or any translation, that says anything about receiving Christ. You put it in there. That's the gospel according to Aaron32, not according to the Bible or the church you claim to be a member of.

Nor does it say that they will be "justified if their sins". Is there some kind of magical ink that only you can see? Why can't you just accept the words that are there and stop adding your own. It does not say they will be justified. It says those that "did good", will be raised with the just. That much is clear, the rest of your explain is simply confusing the issue. Aaron32, those who do good, regardless of their beliefs, what they knew, whether they accepted Christ or not, will be raised with the just. Your explanation cannot be found in it.

That's not what it says. In fact, if you "received the Savior" if you did evil, your not getting anywhere near heaven or salvation (at least, not according to that passage). Receiving Christ is important, but it has nothing to do with this passage.

I started a new thread on John 5:29 specifically cross referenced with D&C 76 where is states "resurrection of the just".
I pray you'll overcome your blindness and realize I'm not simply inventing my own beliefs.

You seem to be confused. Are you claiming that the Book of Mormon contradicts the Bible? Some second witness that would make. 🙄

Yes. I'm very confused. How in the world did you arrive to the conclusion that I'm claiming the Book of Mormon contradicts the Bible?

Being saved, is not the subject of John 5:29. It is simply talking about the state of those who are resurrected.

Actually, it's talking about the first and second resurrections. Hence, that the relevance of "good" and "evil" in that scripture.

The Book of Mormon also makes no claim to justify those who do evil.

agreed

If you do evil, according to Jesus, it doesn't help you to receive Christ - in fact, it will make your situation worse than if you didn't. Evil warrants, earns the resurrection of the damned. The opposite is also true regardless of who one receives.

To clarify are you saying that if I do "good" then I get the same resurrection as any other "good" person.
What's the value of receiving Christ?

Please remember that the majority of the Earth's population never knew Christ, so hopefully, that doesn't Trump works as you believe it does.

Remember, the gospel is preached on the other side of the veil. So this statement is completely irrelevant.

I agree. That is the law of the gospel. John 5:29 isn't about the law of the gospel. The gospel requires Christ. There is no mention about Christ or his role in the resurrection. It simply states that there is a resurrection and those who are raised from the dead will be divided based on their works. Period. Reading into it and making it something it isn't just confused the issue.

Uh...maybe you missed the prior verses that say:
"23 That all men should honour the Son, even as they honour the Father. He that honoureth not the Son honoureth not the Father which hath sent him.
24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life."

The question must be addressed, what about those who never heard of Christ, much less received him?

The gospel is preached on the other side of the veil, so this isn't an issue.

John 5:29 addresses that. It's important to accept it as stated because it clearly expunges those who think they received Christ. They are left without excuse. Evil works of Christians (and there is serious evil among those who claim to have received Christ) will not save them.

I agree.

Those who do evil, regardless of their lip.service, will find themselves raised among the damned.

Yep.

Our works have serious consequences and definitely will affect our salvation. Jesus made that very clear.

Yep.

You've done nothing but made it worse.

How?

LOL. Are you aware that "more" means in addition to? We must at least keep the commandments or we cannot be saved. That's what Jesus said. If you would have life, keep the commandments. And of course there is more that is necessary, much more. But we must keep the commandments or we will find ourselves resurrected among the damned.

Yes, of course we keep the commandments! Duh!

Totally irrelevant. It has nothing to do with the resurrection. Everyone will be raised from the dead, baptized or not.

But only those who receive Christ will receive the resurrection of the just.

 

[Aaron32]

True. None of that makes a dead prophet or apostle anything other than a dead foundation which makes for a dead church.

Maybe so, but you inserting the word "living" into Eph 2:20.

They formed their own church, made up their own organization and tossed the foundation they claim to have our the window.

So you have preferred they stayed with the Catholic Church or something?

What Had to Happen?

What Had to Happen?

www.churchofjesuschrist.org

How about you give them a break and try and understand where they're coming from?

That isn't the foundation upon which the church is built. You, like them, claim a foundation of the scripture and then ignore the scriptures. If they build their foundation on the word of God, they would have prophets and apostles like they did. You know, like living ones like they had.

I never claimed to agree with them, I'm simply advocating their position.

Geez, this is basic and yet it appears to be outside of your grasp.

You mean basics such as "grace comes to those that keep the 10 commandments"? LOL!

 

[Aaron32]

It doesn't matter what you believe if it's not true.

Agreed. Ditto. It is important to justify our beliefs as true using authoritative sources.

It's a clear sign, IMO, that if God were directing the work, then it would look like God's work. When God put the church together under the new covenant, it had 12 living apostles and when one left, they filled the vacancy. What our critics have resembles nothing of the church God established.

Agreed. That's the argument I posed to organgrinder.

Dead apostles equals a dead foundation and a dead foundation equals a dead church.

Not necessarily. Priesthood titles with no priesthood power doesn't make a living church either.

Where have I passed judgment?

You said what they believe is false, and then you concededly said "there's nothing I can do about that" as if you thought that we thought you could do something about that? Clearly, you think very highly of yourself. You are not the arbiter of truth. give humility a try.

Have I condemned anyone? No. I'm simply stating facts. The early church had apostles, their church doesn't. That is the truth. That by itself is brutal. There is nothing they can do about it except make excuses which is what they do.

So you believe "they make excuses"? What if they actually believe what they say they believe?

The most ridiculous excuses is HEB 1:1-2. They ignore the fact that it was an apostle who said it.

Can you prove who actually wrote Hebrews? That would be amazing.

Christ is not here. We cannot see Him, we can't hear Him. But we can hear living apostles. We can, that is. They can't.

*smh*

Those are the facts. It doesn't matter if you don't like them or that they are brutal. The truth never goes away.

The primary fact is: You're not the arbiter of truth.
Get some humility, and be charitable.

 

[Aaron32]

That isn't the problem. I've never argued that it wasn't or that it wasn't common ground. The problem is you denying what we believe in an effort to find common ground where there is none.

What did I deny?

Case in point, our works have no bearing on our salvation. The fact is, it does and our church teaches that it does. On this topic, there is no common ground.

I never said "works have no bearing on our salvation". Bearing false witness is breaking one of the 10 commandments.
According to your odd belief system. I guess that means your: a)evil, b) receiving no grace.

That is a fact. It's also the brutal truth.

Ummm...no. You're not the arbiter of truth.

Now, you're just being obtuse.

And your just being derogatory because you can't legitimize any of your points.

I have been specific on many topics where there is no common ground and you know what some of them are.

Nope, I think this is your just your narrative, seeing what you want to see.

 

[brotherofJared]

What am I "obviously" not paying attention to?

That question answers itself, not that you'd understand that.

 

[brotherofJared]

I started a new thread on John 5:29 specifically cross referenced with D&C 76 where is states "resurrection of the just".

John 5:29 isn't talking about the resurrection of the just. You just don't get it. No matter what evidence is provided, you just reset and go back to the same tired rhetoric. Those whose works are good will be resurrected with the just. They may or may not be just or justified. Again, John 5:29 isn't about being saved

I pray you'll overcome your blindness and realize I'm not simply inventing my own beliefs.

I pray you'll overcome your blindness and realize that you are simply inventing your own beliefs, just like our other critics.

 

[brotherofJared]

Actually, it's talking about the first and second resurrections.

Yes. You do appear to be making up your own beliefs. There is no mention of a first or second resurrection in that verse.

Hence, that the relevance of "good" and "evil" in that scripture.

You also appear to be making up your own arguments. I didn't say it wasn't about good or evil.

 

[brotherofJared]

To clarify are you saying that if I do "good" then I get the same resurrection as any other "good" person.

Yep. That's exactly what I'm saying. That's exactly what the verse says. It's unavoidable. Only someone who makes inserts his own words into it would read it any other way.

What's the value of receiving Christ?

What does John 5:29 say is the value of receiving Christ? Nothing. It's not mentioned anywhere in there. Stop adding it. It's not there.

 

[brotherofJared]

Remember, the gospel is preached on the other side of the veil. So this statement is completely irrelevant.

It's 100% relevant in the context of John 5:29. The fact that Jesus doesn't mention anything else but works, makes this relevant to them.

 

[brotherofJared]

Uh...maybe you missed the prior verses that say:

Uh. Maybe you need to keep your focus on John 5:29.

"23 That all men should honour the Son, even as they honour the Father. He that honoureth not the Son honoureth not the Father which hath sent him.
24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life."

You're getting distracted. Note, once again, there is no mention of Christ in John 5:29. There is no mention of salvation in that verse. Try not to get distracted. We aren't talking about salvation or eternal life. 23 and 24 talk about eternal life. 29 does not. To be clear, it doesn't matter, in the resurrection, whether you received Christ or not. If your works were good, it will be the resurrection to life (or with the just). The same is true of those who have done evil. It doesn't matter whether they received Christ or not. If their works were evil, their resurrection will be with the damned. PERIOD. That's what it says. That's what will happen.

 

[brotherofJared]

The gospel is preached on the other side of the veil, so this isn't an issue.

It is the issue. Our works make all the difference.

 

[rossh]

This is they key to that whole passage. Only those who do good will be raised to life, period. Walking in the light as Jesus walked in the light. If you can't do that then kiss salvation good bye.

As it says, they need to act in righteousness in faith trusting. Once again, we have our critics relying on 4 or 5 words while they ignore the rest of the scriptures.

LOL good luck with that. Those whose deeds are evil will be raised to the resurrection of the damned. Your words will not save you.

No, it is Scripture, not just words either, we can not save ourselves!