Where does Grace come into the picture in Mormonism?

[brotherofJared]

I agree.

I don't think you know what you're agreeing to.

I argue with fellow mormons that claim the baseline of qualifying for grace is the ten commandments.

Aren't the ten commandments the beginning of or the least we can do? Wouldn't you say that if anyone were to break the ten commandments, they would be counted among the evil? You argue a point and then say that you agree that doing evil places one's salvation in jeopardy. That's a very strange argument.

 

[brotherofJared]

But only those who receive Christ will receive the resurrection of the just.

False. Not according to John. Receiving Christ has nothing to do with which resurrection one is raised to.

 

[brotherofJared]

Maybe so, but you inserting the word "living" into Eph 2:20.

Incredible. Didn't you insert the word "dead" into Eph 2:20? Let's get something clear. The apostles in Eph 2:20 are living. They aren't dead.

How about you give them a break and try and understand where they're coming from?

How about you stop pretending there is common ground where there isn't any?

I never claimed to agree with them, I'm simply advocating their position.

LOL. I thnk they are old enough to advocate their own position.

You mean basics such as "grace comes to those that keep the 10 commandments"? LOL!

Yes. That's what I mean. LOL

 

[brotherofJared]

You said what they believe is false,

That's not judgment. That's the truth.

 

[brotherofJared]

Can you prove who actually wrote Hebrews? That would be amazing.

Prove it wasn't an apostle. That would be amazing.

 

[rossh]

False. Not according to John. Receiving Christ has nothing to do with which resurrection one is raised to.

Read Romans 10.. all of it but, esp vss 8+

 

[Aaron32]

That question answers itself

How?

 

[Aaron32]

John 5:29 isn't talking about the resurrection of the just. You just don't get it.

JST John 5:29 … they who have done good, in the resurrection of the just; and they who have done evil, in the resurrection of the unjust.

It's pretty hard to claim something isn't talking about something when it's explicitly stated.

I pray you'll overcome your blindness and realize that you are simply inventing your own beliefs, just like our other critics.

Matt 7:3-5

 

[Aaron32]

Yes. You do appear to be making up your own beliefs. There is no mention of a first or second resurrection in that verse.

D&C 76 says the resurrection of the just is the first resurrection.
You really ought to stop interpretating scripture by putting single verses in a vacuum.

You also appear to be making up your own arguments. I didn't say it wasn't about good or evil.

At this point, I have no idea what you're arguing about.
It might help if you stopped declaring what "isn't", and started declaring what "is".

 

[Aaron32]

Yep. That's exactly what I'm saying. That's exactly what the verse says. It's unavoidable. Only someone who makes inserts his own words into it would read it any other way.
What does John 5:29 say is the value of receiving Christ? Nothing. It's not mentioned anywhere in there. Stop adding it. It's not there.

So in verse 24 he says, "He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation;"
But you're saying in verse 29, he reverses course and there is no value of receiving Christ? That doesn't make any sense.

 

[Aaron32]

It's 100% relevant in the context of John 5:29. The fact that Jesus doesn't mention anything else but works, makes this relevant to them.

Yes. I'm sure we can justify any belief we want when we place a single verse in a silo.
This is where the role of Church authority comes in. What do they say regarding this scripture?

"The other salvation is that which is given to the righteous, those who confess repentance and a willingness to obey the commandments of God. These are they of whom the Savior spoke, who have "everlasting life," and shall not come into condemnation; but have "passed from death unto life" (John 5:24) which life is to dwell in eternal glory." (Joseph Fielding Smith, April 1956, The Significance of the Atonement)

At the time of the Second Coming, Jesus will judge the souls of all mankind in an inevitable judgment. In the gospel of John we read:
“The Father judgeth no man, but hath committed all judgment unto the Son: …
“The Father … hath … given to the Son … authority to execute judgment. …
“For the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
“And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation” John 5:22, 26–29 The prophet Mormon wrote: “Ye must all stand before the judgment-seat of Christ, yea, every soul who belongs to the whole human family of Adam; and ye must stand to be judged of your works, whether they be good or evil” Morm. 3:20 (Joseph B Wirthlin, October 1993, Our Lord and Savior)

"...the Prophet Joseph Smith saw that the Gospel of the Kingdom could be preached not only to people in the flesh, but to people out of the flesh; John 5:25-29 D&C 76:15 that when people depart this life they retain their identity; that they can be informed; that they can receive and reject; and he was also shown that the time must come when all shall hear the Gospel of the Lord Jesus Christ, because by that they shall be judged. The Apostle Peter says: “For this cause was the gospel preached also to them which are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit.” 1 Pet. 4:6 Everyone must hear the Gospel and be judged by it. D&C 138:32-35 It would not be just to judge anyone by that Gospel if they never heard it." (Charles W. Penrose, Journal of Discourses 22:163)

"Our mortal life, however, is only temporary and will end with the death of our physical body. But the essence of who you and I are will not be destroyed. Our spirits will continue living and await the Resurrection—a free gift to all by our loving Heavenly Father and His Son, Jesus Christ.2 [See John 5:28–29 At the Resurrection, our spirits and bodies will be reunited, free from pain and physical imperfections.
After the Resurrection, there will be a Day of Judgment. While all will eventually be saved and inherit a kingdom of glory, those who trust in God and seek to follow His laws and ordinances will inherit lives in the eternities that are unimaginable in glory and overwhelming in majesty." (Deiter F Uchtdorf, Oct 2016, O How Great the Plan of our God)

Clearly, there is value in accepting the Savior, which are the works being spoken of.

 

[Aaron32]

Uh. Maybe you need to keep your focus on John 5:29.

Why? So I can get a warped understanding like you?

You're getting distracted. Note, once again, there is no mention of Christ in John 5:29. There is no mention of salvation in that verse. Try not to get distracted. We aren't talking about salvation or eternal life. 23 and 24 talk about eternal life. 29 does not. To be clear, it doesn't matter, in the resurrection, whether you received Christ or not. If your works were good, it will be the resurrection to life (or with the just). The same is true of those who have done evil. It doesn't matter whether they received Christ or not. If their works were evil, their resurrection will be with the damned. PERIOD. That's what it says. That's what will happen.

And in the singularity of that verse "good works" are defined as???? There is no definition given.
Thus, we must refer to the scriptures surrounding that verse to gain a complete understanding.

 

[Aaron32]

It is the issue. Our works make all the difference.

You're just being obstinate at this point.
Yes, works make the difference. But what works? The works that show our acceptance of Christ, not just blind obedience to the ten commandments.

 

[Aaron32]

I don't think you know what you're agreeing to.

Exactly what the statement said "Evil works of Christians (and there is serious evil among those who claim to have received Christ) will not save them."
If a person is deliberate and rebelliously sinful, they have no claim to salvation, regardless if they claim to accept Christ. Christians are known by their fruits.

Aren't the ten commandments the beginning of or the least we can do? Wouldn't you say that if anyone were to break the ten commandments, they would be counted among the evil?

This is a red herring. There no place in the scriptures that we receive grace by keeping the 10 commandments.

You argue a point and then say that you agree that doing evil places one's salvation in jeopardy. That's a very strange argument.

I'm not the topic.

 

[Aaron32]

False. Not according to John. Receiving Christ has nothing to do with which resurrection one is raised to.

Ummm....hmmm...I'm not exactly where to start. Maybe you ought to call the missionaries, or your bishop, and take it up with them.
Maybe you can prove that statement in D&C 76?
Hey @Richard7 is this the type of comment mormons should blindly agree with, or stay silent about just because someone claims to be on "Team Mormon"?

 

[Aaron32]

Incredible. Didn't you insert the word "dead" into Eph 2:20?

Did I? I don't recall doing so.

Let's get something clear. The apostles in Eph 2:20 are living. They aren't dead.

That's the very assumption being challenged. Your degree of conviction doesn't transform an assumption a fact.
D&C 121:
41 No power or influence can or ought to be maintained by virtue of the priesthood, only by persuasion, by long-suffering, by gentleness and meekness, and by love unfeigned;
42 By kindness, and pure knowledge, which shall greatly enlarge the soul without hypocrisy, and without guile

How about you stop pretending there is common ground where there isn't any?

How about you mind your own business?
My focus is truth and understanding. You can do what you want.

D&C 50:
17 Verily I say unto you, he that is ordained of me and sent forth to preach the word of truth by the Comforter, in the Spirit of truth, doth he preach it by the Spirit of truth or some other way?
18 And if it be by some other way it is not of God.
19 And again, he that receiveth the word of truth, doth he receive it by the Spirit of truth or some other way?
20 If it be some other way it is not of God.

LOL. I thnk they are old enough to advocate their own position.

Probably. But I can pre-empt their responses in a peaceful way, I'll continue to do so.

Yes. That's what I mean. LOL

Yeah, that's problematic when you claim to represent Mormonism.

 

[Aaron32]

That's not judgment. That's the truth.

According to you.

 

[Aaron32]

Prove it wasn't an apostle. That would be amazing.

Argument from absence.

 

[rossh]

thanks for you reply post, this is funny and it happened me, Taking to a friend about confessing salvation re Romans 10. He said to me " if you say this to someone then you will have make this statement and be saved.. " I only replied by saying, " yes is true and it is great, wonderful " .. He got re-stated the issue and I again failed to actually make the " confession/statement " lol. However I finally got the idea and made the confession to him right there, and he said " at last, great work, you finally did it! "..
Years later i n I got Baptised as IO never remembered the baby one..

 

[rossh]

False. Not according to John. Receiving Christ has nothing to do with which resurrection one is raised to.

so what on earth is " which resurrection " ?

Romans 10:8 But what does it say? “The word is near you; it is in your mouth and in your heart, ”[that is, the message concerning faith that we proclaim: 9 If you declare with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.

False. Not according to John. Receiving Christ has nothing to do with which resurrection one is raised to.

WE do know that you can READ so re-read the above, Gods Word never lies..
Romans 10:9 If you declare with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. 10 For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you profess your faith and are saved. 11 As Scripture says, “Anyone who believes in him will never be put to shame.”[e] 12 For there is no difference between Jew and Gentile—the same Lord is Lord of all and richly blesses all who call on him, 13 for, “Everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.”[f]