Where does Grace come into the picture in Mormonism?

[Janice Bower]

You mean Mormonism believes grace transforms a person so that their faith causes them walk in the newness of life? Weird. How is that wrong?

So the Biblical grace you speak have NO requirements whatsoever? Can I can unrepentantly live in lasciviousness and claim Jesus as my Savior? This may be the false gospel that talked about so much in the Bible (see Jude 1:4)
Can we deliberately live immoral lives and expect God to save us? Does God save us in our sins, or from our sins?
Between no effort to total effort, what degree of effort is required for us to receive salvation? And how does one know? Can you answer this question using the Bible alone?

Mormons teach that they can know by the gift of Holy Ghost: "For behold, again I say unto you that if ye will enter in by the way, and receive the Holy Ghost, it will show unto you all things what ye should do." (2 Ne 32:5) This is why denying the Holy Ghost is the unpardonable sin:

• Blasphemy against the Holy Ghost shall not be forgiven unto men, Matt. 12:31–32 (Mark 3:29; Luke 12:10).
• It is impossible for those who were made partakers of the Holy Ghost to renew them again unto repentance, Heb. 6:4–6.
• If we sin wilfully after we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins, Heb. 10:26.

So where is Mormonism getting this wrong?

You ought to be ashamed of misrepresenting the true gospel with lies. You've been informed of Ephesians 2 repeatedly (IOW, over and over again.) Apparently you hate the truth so very much you want to deny it.

Ezekiel 36:27
And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.

Ephesians 2 talks about the new birth just like John 3 does:

For we are God's handiwork, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.

Jew and Gentile Reconciled Through Christ

11Therefore, remember that formerly you who are Gentiles by birth and called “uncircumcised” by those who call themselves “the circumcision” (which is done in the body by human hands)— 12remember that at that time you were separate from Christ, excluded from citizenship in Israel and foreigners to the covenants of the promise, without hope and without God in the world. 13But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far away have been brought near by the blood of Christ.

Christians are following Christ.

John10:27
27My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:

As long as you believe Joseph Smith's lies you will deny the truth.

 

[Bonnie]

The true Church is spiritual, not a building with walls and a ceiling. Christ lives in every born again believer.

This has never been lost...Jesus didn't fail in His mission, as the LDS Church would insist. Jesus said "it is finished". There is no wiggle room.

Salvation is a gift, which, by definition, is not something one earns. Born again believers are Holy, righteous, and blameless because of the finished work of Jesus Christ.

I wonder if Mormons here have ever wondered how born again believers are consistent in their beliefs despite not likely attending the same church building on a weekly basis. It's because the true Church is spiritual! Born again believers ARE the Church.

Exactly! Jesus promised that the gates of Hades would not prevail against His church--but Smith insisted that it did, for 1800 years, until he came along...Smith lied, big time.

Whom should we believe? Jesus Christ Himself, or a lying, scrying false prophet like Joseph Smith, jr.?

 

[Bonnie]

Yep, and our church has it and yours does not.

Nonsense. YOUR church has a false Christ that is Satan's elder brother in the supposed pre-mortal existence, and was founded by a lying false prophet. So, really, your church has bupkiss, and its foundation is lies.

 

[Erundur]

YOUR church has a false Christ that is Satan's elder brother in the supposed pre-mortal existence,

As Christians, we disagree with you that Jesus Christ is a false Christ.

and was founded by a lying false prophet. So, really, your church has bupkiss, and its foundation is lies.

Nonsense. YOUR church was founded by a lying false reformer. So, really, your church has bupkiss, and its foundation is lies.

 

[Janice Bower]

As Christians, we disagree with you that Jesus Christ is a false Christ.

She didn't say any such thing! Neither does our Bible. The Mormon lies portray false gods called Elohim, Jehovah and Jesus.

Doctrine and Covenants 130
22 The Father has a body of flesh and bones as tangible as man’s; the Son also;

“People tell us, ‘You don’t believe in one God; you believe in three Gods.’ And the answer is, ‘Yes, we do.’ If that is polytheism then we are.”
Truman Madsen, BYU professor (emeritus), 150-Year- Old Debate: Are Mormons `Really Christian’? San Francisco Chronicle, April 8, 1996

Joseph Smith taught:
“Many men say there is one God; the Father, the Son and the Holy Ghost are only one God. I say that is a strange God anyhow—three in one, and one in three! It is a curious organization anyhow. All are to be crammed into one God, according to sectarianism. It would make the biggest God in all the world. He would be a wonderfully big God—he would be a giant or a monster.”
(Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, p. 372; History of the Church, vol. 6, p. 476)

"And virtually all the millions of apostate Christendom have abased themselves before the mythical throne of a mythical Christ whom they vainly suppose to be a spirit essence who is incorporeal uncreated, immaterial and three-in-one with the Father and Holy Spirit"
(Mormon Doctrine, p.269)

 

[Erundur]

She didn't say any such thing!

Of course she did.

The Mormon lies portray false gods called Elohim, Jehovah and Jesus.

As Bible believers, we disagree with you that Elohim and Jehovah/Jesus are false gods.

 

[Janice Bower]

Of course she did.

As Bible believers, we disagree with you that Elohim and Jehovah/Jesus are false gods.

The Mormon Elohim and Jehovah/Jesus are false gods.

I'm well aware of Mormon disagreements. I also know that Mormons cherry pick the Bible. Mormon believers prefer Mormonism to the Bible just as Joseph Smith taught.

Joseph Smith ignored: Proverbs 30:6.

"Add thou not unto his words, lest he reprove thee, and thou be found a liar."


"I told the brethren that the Book of Mormon was the most correct of any book on earth, and the keystone of our religion, and a man would get nearer to God by abiding its precepts, than by any other book."
Joseph Smith, November 28, 1841, History of the Church, 4:461, Ensign, June 1984

Articles of Faith:
"8 We believe the Bible to be the word of God as far as it is translated correctly; we also believe the Book of Mormon to be the word of God."

 

[Janice Bower]

Of course she did.

Mormons claim to be honest, therefore you owe Bonnie an apology

 

[brotherofJared]

Yeah, I doubt many pay attention.

LOL. Obviously, you haven't.

 

[Erundur]

The Mormon Elohim and Jehovah/Jesus are false gods.

That's your hostile opinion, which runs contrary to what the Bible teaches.

 

[Erundur]

Mormons claim to be honest, therefore you owe Bonnie an apology

Non sequitur. In Christianity, we don't need to apologize for being honest.

 

[brotherofJared]

Why my religion? Unlike you, I can actually cite multiple sources to justify my beliefs

As I said, your religion is not the same as that taught in the Church. I'm not the only person who has pointed this out to you. Even our critics have know that.

I'll refer to the JST translation: "JST John 5:29 … they who have done good, in the resurrection of the just; and they who have done evil, in the resurrection of the unjust."
This makes it very clear.

It sure does. And yet, somehow, you still won't get it. It's stupifying.

Those who have received Christ as their Savior

See? You just don't get it. There's not a single word in that translation, or any translation, that says anything about receiving Christ. You put it in there. That's the gospel according to Aaron32, not according to the Bible or the church you claim to be a member of.

justified of their sins

Nor does it say that they will be "justified if their sins". Is there some kind of magical ink that only you can see? Why can't you just accept the words that are there and stop adding your own. It does not say they will be justified. It says those that "did good", will be raised with the just. That much is clear, the rest of your explain is simply confusing the issue. Aaron32, those who do good, regardless of their beliefs, what they knew, whether they accepted Christ or not, will be raised with the just. Your explanation cannot be found in it.

and those who have not received the Savior are not justified of the sins before God.

That's not what it says. In fact, if you "received the Savior" if you did evil, your not getting anywhere near heaven or salvation (at least, not according to that passage). Receiving Christ is important, but it has nothing to do with this passage.

I'm not sure how anyone who has actually read the Book of Mormon be confused on this concept.

You seem to be confused. Are you claiming that the Book of Mormon contradicts the Bible? Some second witness that would make. ?

And whoso believeth in me, and is baptized, the same shall be saved

Being saved, is not the subject of John 5:29. It is simply talking about the state of those who are resurrected.

The Book of Mormon also makes no claim to justify those who do evil. If you do evil, according to Jesus, it doesn't help you to receive Christ - in fact, it will make your situation worse than if you didn't. Evil warrants, earns the resurrection of the damned. The opposite is also true regardless of who one receives. Please remember that the majority of the Earth's population never knew Christ, so hopefully, that doesn't Trump works as you believe it does.

This is the law of the gospel

I agree. That is the law of the gospel. John 5:29 isn't about the law of the gospel. The gospel requires Christ. There is no mention about Christ or his role in the resurrection. It simply states that there is a resurrection and those who are raised from the dead will be divided based on their works. Period. Reading into it and making it something it isn't just confused the issue.

The question must be addressed, what about those who never heard of Christ, much less received him? John 5:29 addresses that. It's important to accept it as stated because it clearly expunges those who think they received Christ. They are left without excuse. Evil works of Christians (and there is serious evil among those who claim to have received Christ) will not save them. Those who do evil, regardless of their lip.service, will find themselves raised among the damned.

Our works have serious consequences and definitely will affect our salvation. Jesus made that very clear. You've done nothing but made it worse.

but let's not forget what President Eyring said in this last general conference: "keeping the Lord’s commandments requires more than obedience.

LOL. Are you aware that "more" means in addition to? We must at least keep the commandments or we cannot be saved. That's what Jesus said. If you would have life, keep the commandments. And of course there is more that is necessary, much more. But we must keep the commandments or we will find ourselves resurrected among the damned.

Nephi affirms this concept, that those who get baptized must do so with a pure heart, and real intent. (see 2 Nephi 31:13)

Totally irrelevant. It has nothing to do with the resurrection. Everyone will be raised from the dead, baptized or not.

 

[brotherofJared]

AoF # 8 We believe the Bible to be the word of God as far as it is translated correctly

True. None of that makes a dead prophet or apostle anything other than a dead foundation which makes for a dead church. They formed their own church, made up their own organization and tossed the foundation they claim to have our the window. Where are their apostles and prophets? They have dead ones. The church that Jesus organized had living ones.

People are wrong to build their foundation on the word of God?

That isn't the foundation upon which the church is built. You, like them, claim a foundation of the scripture and then ignore the scriptures. If they build their foundation on the word of God, they would have prophets and apostles like they did. You know, like living ones like they had.

Geez, this is basic and yet it appears to be outside of your grasp.

 

[brotherofJared]

And yet, you're not the ultimate authority and discerner of truth, only God is.

It doesn't matter what you believe if it's not true. It's a clear sign, IMO, that if God were directing the work, then it would look like God's work. When God put the church together under the new covenant, it had 12 living apostles and when one left, they filled the vacancy. What our critics have resembles nothing of the church God established. Dead apostles equals a dead foundation and a dead foundation equals a dead church.

Or rather, maybe there's nothing you should do about that:
"1 Judge not, that ye be not judged.

Where have I passed judgment? Have I condemned anyone? No. I'm simply stating facts. The early church had apostles, their church doesn't. That is the truth. That by itself is brutal. There is nothing they can do about it except make excuses which is what they do. The most ridiculous excuses is HEB 1:1-2. They ignore the fact that it was an apostle who said it. They read into it and pretend that it says that apostles are not needed because they have Christ. Obviously, that's not the message since they had apostles and one was speaking and they, like us, didn't have Christ. Christ is not here. We cannot see Him, we can't hear Him. But we can hear living apostles. We can, that is. They can't.

Those are the facts. It doesn't matter if you don't like them or that they are brutal. The truth never goes away.

 

[Magdalena]

True. None of that makes a dead prophet or apostle anything other than a dead foundation which makes for a dead church. They formed their own church, made up their own organization and tossed the foundation they claim to have our the window. Where are their apostles and prophets? They have dead ones. The church that Jesus organized had living ones.

That isn't the foundation upon which the church is built. You, like them, claim a foundation of the scripture and then ignore the scriptures. If they build their foundation on the word of God, they would have prophets and apostles like they did. You know, like living ones like they had.

Geez, this is basic and yet it appears to be outside of your grasp.

Using your line of reasoning, we would need a new Jesus too. He’s not living here anymore, either.

 

[brotherofJared]

I'm pretty sure the common ground is that we believe the Bible to be the word of God

That isn't the problem. I've never argued that it wasn't or that it wasn't common ground. The problem is you denying what we believe in an effort to find common ground where there is none.

Case in point, our works have no bearing on our salvation. The fact is, it does and our church teaches that it does. On this topic, there is no common ground.

That's your opinion

That is a fact. It's also the brutal truth.

Can you be more specific on what the problem is? I'm not seeing it.

Now, you're just being obtuse. I have been specific on many topics where there is no common ground and you know what some of them are.

 

[rossh]

There are so many religions out there...many believe to be "the only true church". Mormonism is certainly one that makes this claim. But, at the very surface of the LDS Church, the flaws are quickly apparent with the existence of the Book of Mormon and it's claim to be "Another Testament".

Biblical Scripture squashes that possibility immediately in Galatians 1:7-9. "Testament" is also a word for "Covenant". This is what Christianity teaches for Mormons trying to understand where Christians are coming from...perhaps you'll understand the absurdity of the possibility of the very claim of "Another Testament":


The Born Again experience is a death sentence. Do I have your attention? Good...when a person becomes a believer in Jesus Christ, their old self dies and is crucified with Christ. They are buried with Christ. Then they are raised to new life in Christ because of His Resurrection and become a new self. The entire nature of a believer is righteous, Holy, and blameless....none of this has anything to do with what we are doing, but rather, by the finished work of Jesus Christ. Believers are partakers of the divine nature and seated in Heavenly places. A new believer is no longer of this world and becomes an eternal creature...all because of the finished work of Jesus Christ....absolutely nothing to do with what we are doing.

Faith in God's Grace, not of works (Ephesians 2:8-9)

Yes you are correct. So the question is this? How many actually tell us, that as we are simply Huma Beings we need redemption ( to be saved ) ?

How many teach this exactly ?

Romans 10:
5 For Moshe writes about the righteousness grounded in the Torah that the person who does these things will attain life through them. k
6 Moreover, the righteousness grounded in trusting says: "Do not say in your heart, 'Who will ascend to heaven?'" that is, to bring the Messiah down -
7 or, "'Who will descend into Sh'ol?'" that is, to bring the Messiah up from the dead.
8 What, then, does it say? "The word is near you, in your mouth and in your heart."l that is, the word about trust which we proclaim, namely,
9 that if you acknowledge publicly with your mouth that Yeshua is Lord and trust in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be delivered.
10 For with the heart one goes on trusting and thus continues toward righteousness, while with the mouth one keeps on making public acknowledgement and thus continues toward deliverance.
11 For the pas sage quoted says that everyone who rests his trust on him will not be humiliated.
12 That means that there is no difference between Jew and Gentile - ADONAI is the same for everyone, rich toward everyone who calls on him,
13 since everyone who calls on the name of ADONAI will be delivered.

This, as it says above, needs to be a vocal/verbal expression voiced to people, another person, to the local congregation by each of us.
Eg; I declare that I believe and confess Yeshua, Gods only true flesh and blood Son, as MY Lord and as MY Savior!

 

[rossh]

That isn't the problem. I've never argued that it wasn't or that it wasn't common ground. The problem is you denying what we believe in an effort to find common ground where there is none.

Case in point, our works have no bearing on our salvation. The fact is, it does and our church teaches that it does. On this topic, there is no common ground.

That is a fact. It's also the brutal truth.

Now, you're just being obtuse. I have been specific on many topics where there is no common ground and you know what some of them are.

8 What, then, does it say? "The word is near you, in your mouth and in your heart."l that is, the word about trust which we proclaim, namely,
9 that if you acknowledge publicly with your mouth that Yeshua is Lord and trust in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be delivered.
10 For with the heart one goes on trusting and thus continues toward righteousness, while with the mouth one keeps on making public acknowledgement and thus continues toward deliverance.
Amen..

 

[Janice Bower]

That's your hostile opinion, which runs contrary to what the Bible teaches.

Why are you arguing with us if you believe in the Trinity and every verse of the Bible and reject false doctrines?

 

[Bonnie]

As Christians, we disagree with you that Jesus Christ is a false Christ.

Of course you do. But your church is a pseudo-Christian cult and they always, always misrepresent the Person and work of Jesus Christ. And YOUR Jesus is Satan's brother in the supposed pre-mortal spirit existence, the first born spirit child of heavenly father and some unnamed heavenly "mother." That is absolutely UNbiblical, not to mention, blasphemous.

Nonsense. YOUR church was founded by a lying false reformer. So, really, your church has bupkiss, and its foundation is lies.

Well, now, this is just a case of tit for tat, to get back at me, and to change the subject. Won't work. IF you would like to discuss this farther, we can go to the Lutheran board and discuss it there to our heart's content. It would be off topic for this board, and I won't discuss it here.

Your church founder was a false prophet, who prophesied falsely many times, in God's name. He was also a hypocrite, preaching the WoW, while often not following it himself. Not to mention, a womanizer, who used spiritual blackmail to get girls as young as 14 to marry him, and women who were already married. The man had no shame.