where Judaism and Christianity agree

creation with its physical attributes is meant to be perishable unless an outside force influences it.
we see life as a progress in perfection. That's the ultimate goal, with knowledge of God reigning supreme.

so in Judaism "perfection" is, like..a Thing\\

"The law of the Lord is perfect" Psalm 19
"All that God has commanded we will do:" Exodus19
 
so in Judaism "perfection" is, like..a Thing\\
The goal.

"The law of the Lord is perfect" Psalm 19
Reviving the soul.

"All that God has commanded we will do:" Exodus19
It's the goal to strive for. Constantly. It's not a one-and-done thing.

Genesis 17:1
When Abram was ninety-nine years old, the LORD appeared to him and said, “I am God Almighty; walk before me faithfully and be blameless.

That is why it can be said:

Proverbs 24:16
For a righteous man falls seven times, and rises again, But the wicked stumble in time of disaster and collapse.
 
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Genesis 17:1
When Abram was ninety-nine years old, the LORD appeared to him and said, “I am God Almighty; walk before me faithfully and be blameless.
ו וְהֶאֱמִן, בַּיהוָה; וַיַּחְשְׁבֶהָ לּוֹ, צְדָקָה.6 And he believed in the LORD; and He counted it to him for righteousness.
Genesis 15
Proverbs 24:16
For a righteous man falls seven times, and rises again, But the wicked stumble in time of disaster and collapse.
ד הִנֵּה עֻפְּלָה, לֹא-יָשְׁרָה נַפְשׁוֹ בּוֹ; וְצַדִּיק, בֶּאֱמוּנָתוֹ יִחְיֶה. {ס}4 Behold, his soul is puffed up, it is not upright in him; but the righteous shall live by his faith. Habakkuk 2
 
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ו וְהֶאֱמִן, בַּיהוָה; וַיַּחְשְׁבֶהָ לּוֹ, צְדָקָה.6 And he believed in the LORD; and He counted it to him for righteousness.
Genesis 15

ד הִנֵּה עֻפְּלָה, לֹא-יָשְׁרָה נַפְשׁוֹ בּוֹ; וְצַדִּיק, בֶּאֱמוּנָתוֹ יִחְיֶה. {ס}4 Behold, his soul is puffed up, it is not upright in him; but the righteous shall live by his faith. Habakkuk 2
Yes. And how is that belief, faith, exemplified?

Genesis 18:19
For I have chosen him, so that he will command his children and his household after him to keep the way of the LORD by doing what is right and just, in order that the LORD may bring upon Abraham what He has promised.”

I believe the book of James 2 explains this to you in this way:

18But someone will say, “You have faith and I have deeds.” Show me your faith without deeds, and I will show you my faith by my deeds. 19You believe that God is one.g Good for you! Even the demons believe that—and shudder.

20O foolish man, do you want evidence that faith without deeds is worthless?h 21Was not our father Abraham justified by what he did when he offered his son Isaac on the altar? 22You see that his faith was working with his actions, and his faith was perfected by what he did. 23And the Scripture was fulfilled that says, “Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness,”i and he was called a friend of God.j 24As you can see, a man is justified by his deeds and not by faith alone.
 
how is that belief, faith, exemplified?
I believe the book of James 2 explains this to you in this way:
is a lack of service then a lack of faith? or just a lack of service?
is a "dead" faith...really no faith?

"For I have chosen him, so that he will..."

is it not on God to perfect those He has chosen to be His own? and to use them effectively for His purposes?
"He has perfected forever those who are being made Holy" Hebrew 10

if even a mustard seed worth is efficacious, is there really ever such a thing as a completely dead Faith? Matthew 17:20
 
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is a lack of service then a lack of faith? or just a lack of service?
is a "dead" faith...really no faith?
It's a lack of faith if there is no action.

The demons believe too, right?

"For I have chosen him, so that he will..."
God chose Abram because Abram chose God. Abram listened to God, Genesis 12.

is it not on God to perfect those He has chosen to be His own? and to use them effectively for His purposes?
God gave us the law to perfect us, Psalm 19:7.

"He has perfected forever those who are being made Holy" Hebrew 10
The law is given for this purpose. The law perfects and makes holy.

if even a mustard seed worth is efficacious, is there really ever such a thing as a completely dead Faith? Matthew 17:20
You have to plant the mustard seed ;)
 
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God gave us the law to perfect us, Psalm 19:7.
The law is given for this purpose. The law perfects and makes holy.
"The law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul;
The testimony of the Lord is sure, making wise the simple;"

liar coveter thief sexually immoral murderer...
"you sure are a sinner David,
My law and sent prophets explained that to you" - God


Did the Law perfect David?
or does God have to perfect David, to truly make him a man after God's own heart? Ezekiel 36:26

is not the testimony of the Lord, and the Law
that we are not God, nor His equal, nor could we ever be?
 
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"The law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul;
The testimony of the Lord is sure, making wise the simple;"

liar coveter thief sexually immoral murderer...
"you sure are a sinner David,
My law and sent prophets explained that to you" - God


Did the Law perfect David?
or does God have to perfect David, to truly make him a man after God's own heart? Ezekiel 36:26

is not the testimony of the Lord, and the Law
that we are not God, nor His equal, nor could we ever be?
Doesn't Tanakh say about David:

And as for you, if you walk before Me as your father David walked, with a heart of integrity and uprightness, doing all I have commanded you, and if you keep My statutes and ordinances...

You forget, the righteous fall 7 times, and get up. It's a process.
 
And as for you, if you walk before Me as your father David walked, with a heart of integrity and uprightness, doing all I have commanded you, and if you keep My statutes and ordinances...
You forget, the righteous fall 7 times, and get up. It's a process.
still sounds like it is God who does the Work in making someone righteous in His sight
because really they are not, and never can be
and that must first be understood

Psalm 51
"Blot out my transgressions.
Wash me thoroughly from my iniquity,
And cleanse me from my sin."

"For I acknowledge my transgressions, (only 7 transgressions? 70x7 transgressions? more?)
And my sin is always before me. (oooooh!)
Against You, You only, have I sinned,
And done this evil in Your sight—
That You may be found just when You speak,
And blameless when You judge."

"Behold, I was brought forth in iniquity,
And in sin my mother conceived me.
Behold, You desire truth in the inward parts,
And in the hidden part You will make me to know wisdom." (He understands he is a hopeless Sinner?)

"Wash me, and I shall be whiter than snow." (washed with the Law commands? lips? or is blood what God said would atone for the Soul?)

"Hide Your face from my sins, (remember them no more? like will be realized in the promises of the future?)
And blot out all my iniquities."

"Create in me a clean heart, O God,
And renew a steadfast spirit within me.
Do not cast me away from Your presence, (because that is what he actually deserves?)
And do not take Your Holy Spirit from me.
Restore to me the joy of Your salvation,
And uphold me by Your generous Spirit." (not David's spirit, or will, or doing?)
 
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still sounds like it is God who does the Work in making someone righteous in His sight
because really they are not, and never can be
and that must first be understood

Psalm 51
"Blot out my transgressions.
Wash me thoroughly from my iniquity,
And cleanse me from my sin."

"For I acknowledge my transgressions, (only 7 transgressions? 70x7 transgressions? more?)
And my sin is always before me. (oooooh!)
Against You, You only, have I sinned,
And done this evil in Your sight—
That You may be found just when You speak,
And blameless when You judge."

"Behold, I was brought forth in iniquity,
And in sin my mother conceived me.
Behold, You desire truth in the inward parts,
And in the hidden part You will make me to know wisdom." (He understands he is a hopeless Sinner?)

"Wash me, and I shall be whiter than snow." (washed with the Law commands? lips? or is blood what God said would atone for the Soul?)

"Hide Your face from my sins, (remember them no more? like will be realized in the promises of the future?)
And blot out all my iniquities."

"Create in me a clean heart, O God,
And renew a steadfast spirit within me.
Do not cast me away from Your presence, (because that is what he actually deserves?)
And do not take Your Holy Spirit from me.
Restore to me the joy of Your salvation,
And uphold me by Your generous Spirit." (not David's spirit, or will, or doing?)
No, he gives us His righteous laws. And when we follow it, that is our righteousness.
 
Can we agree that Jesus relied on his parents righteousness to fulfill the law for him? This should be a simple yes. I'm talking about the case of his circumcision, his consecration, and his redemption.
Can you please talk a bit more about his redemption?
I see it often expressed in terms of belonging to the people israel and how the people are redeemed, like from the Exile.
 
let's see if our Rabbinic friends have anything significant they agree with Us on
Interfaith dialogues have a propensity of focusing on differences, but it's the commonalities that I find interesting and that give me hope for the Lord's Blessing's because those agreements serve as confirmation of those positive teachings.

Topics of dialogue that come to mind are the teachings on the promise of the Messiah and the General Resurrection, the topic of Substitutionary Atonement, the idea of a Messiah who Dies and Resurrects, the particular Biblical passages that predict the Messiah's death and resurrection, the idea of the joining of the gentiles with Israel in the Messianic era, ideas about who Jesus was/is in terms of history and Messiahship, and the issue of why most rabbis haven't accepted Him.

The teaching that there would be a Messiah and future Resurrection are two of Maimonides' 13 principles of Judaism. I had an Israeli on the Skeptics' Forum argue to me that nowhere does the Tanakh profess that there will be a Messiah Ben David. I realized after about 7 exchanges that the person was going to fight me tooth and nail on the idea that the Tanakh professed this, to the point where I practically gave up. I was also hampered by not knowing Hebrew in the discussion, which made it harder for me to argue the Messianic interpretation of the Bible. And the passages that predict the Messiah are written with a poetic element rather than written laying it out in full-proof form like a medieval scholar might.

On the topic of Substitutionary Atonement, I found cases of modern Jewish scholars saying that vicarious suffering was a real phenomenon, but online polemics tend to argue that Judaism does not teach Substitutionary Atonement. Personally I find that the Yom Kippur ritual does seem to include the teaching of substitutionary atonement, with the animals' sacrifice and placing of their blood on the Ark serving to cover, or wash the people's sins, or to serve as a substitutionary atonement. But online polemics argue against that interpretation.

Judaism does have the idea of a Messiah who dies and resurrects, or rather the idea has currency in rabbinical discourse and tradition. This common idea goes that the Messiah would rule for a long time, die like other mortals, and then resurrect like other Israelites. Nachmanides comes to mind as one famous rabbi who gave this teaching.

I find the Scriptural prophecies of the Messiah's killing and resurrection to be pretty interesting. The basic Christian argument with Psalms is that David serves as a forerunner of the Messiah, that this is especially true of David in the Psalms, and that Psalms 16, 22, and 30 in particular relate to his killing or resurrection. I also find Psalms 21-24 together to give a theme of the Davidic Messiah dying and resurrecting, with Psalm 24 suggesting a resurrection narration. It's common in rabbinical interpretation to relate the Davidic Psalms to the Davidic Messiah. But in polemics I've typically found a strong avoidance of considering the Messiah as getting killed in Psalm 22. This is partly because there is no specific open direct statement as strong as "I was killed", but rather statements that strongly indicate he was killed, like where it says "thou hast brought me into the dust of death." My own close reading of the medieval Pesikta Rabbati tells me that the P. Rabbati paraphrases strongly from Psalm 22 and says that the Davidic Messiah suffered on behalf of the people Israel. But I've seen a modern rabbinical scholar interpret it instead as saying that it's about the Messiah ben Joseph instead. Of course, anyone can make up their own mind, but the P. Rabbati's Messianic Davidic meaning seems clear and logical enough to me.

An interesting question about Jesus' potential Messiaship is: Since it's a key Messianic goal to spread knowledge of the Lord and of the TaNaKh to the nations of the world, how would one explain from a Jewish POV that it's due to Jesus of Nazareth that so much of the world has come to familiarity with the Lord or the TaNaKh? About 1/3 of the world is counted as Christian and another 1/4 as Muslim, depending on the surveys, and He whom the Quran calls Isa al-Masih (Jesus the "Masih", the Christian Arabic word for Messiah) practically played a big indirect role in the development of Islam.

The polemical answer that I've sometimes gotten on this runs along the lines that the Lord works in mysterious ways, even using unexpected or adverse figures to achieve His goals. However, if we suppose that this answer is correct, it implies that the Lord was using Jesus as His figure to achieve the Messianic task of bringing knowledge of the Lord and the Tanakh to the nations. This seems like corroboration that Jesus uniquely fulfilled a Messianic goal.

According to some modern Jewish philosophers, Jesus was not the Messiah for the Jews, but for the Gentiles. How common is this idea? I don't know if this logic works very well. It seems more reasonable to me to consider his Messiaship to be an either/or issue in the eyes of Judaism: Either Jesus was the Messiah of Israel and for the nations or not.
"Has Jesus brought redemption to Israel? No, but he has brought the means of redemption to the gentiles—and that in the name of Israel’s God—thus helping Israel to fulfill its calling to be a blessing to all peoples. A Jewish Messiah for the gentiles! Perhaps, as I have suggested, an inversion of Cyrus’s role as a gentile Messiah for the Jews. Israel is redeemed by engaging in redemptive work. ...” –Michael S. Kogan, Opening the Covenant: A Jewish Theology of Christianity (Oxford University Press. 2007), 68.
chab123.wordpress.com/2022/06/26/a-response-to-david-klinghoffers-why-the-jews-rejected-jesus-the-turning-point-in-western-history-4/

Menah: em ha-MeDiri of Perpignan (1249–1316) created a new legal category that canroughly be characterized as “civilized people” in order to distinguish Christians from ancient idolaters. Without addressing the issue of idolatry in this context, Maimonides andother authorities had assigned to Christianity and Islam thepositive role of spreading knowledge of Torah and thus preparing the world for the Messiah.
...
Perhaps the most striking example of a more positive attitude toward Christianity is Avraham Farissol’s remark that Jesus might well be regarded as a messiah for the Gentiles. Despite Maimonides’ assessment of Christianity’s place in the divines cheme, this assertion, highly unusual even around 1500, was virtually unimaginable in the high Middle Ages. In the sixteenth century, Shelomoh de Modena denied the idolatrous character of Christianity by equating incarnation with anthropomorphism and noting that the latter doctrine had been declared nonheretical (although also not true) by the twelfth-century authority Avraham ben David of Posquières.
...
Moreover, Franz Rosenzweig (1886-1929) spoke of Christianity as a manifestation of a divine covenant with the gentiles. Even Jewish
ecumenists, however, are often wary of far-reaching revisions in their evaluation of Jesus, and it is unlikely that dialogue will produce a perception of Jesus as a quasi messiah or mitigate the historic Jewish distaste for the central dogmas of traditional Christianity

"Encyclopedia of Religion," https://vietheravada.net/ebook/bachkhoathutongiao/11_Pius IX to Q Vol. 11.pdf
 
Can you please talk a bit more about his redemption?
I see it often expressed in terms of belonging to the people israel and how the people are redeemed, like from the Exile.
The firstborn is redeemed per Exodus 13, as part of the remembrance of the Passover, the first born son.

The true father is required to redeem his son. God didn't redeem Jesus. Joseph did.

The same idea applies to circumcision and consecration. Joseph did this to Jesus.
 
The firstborn is redeemed per Exodus 13, as part of the remembrance of the Passover, the first born son.

The true father is required to redeem his son. God didn't redeem Jesus. Joseph did.

The same idea applies to circumcision and consecration. Joseph did this to Jesus.
Thanks for the answer.
Peace-Shalom.
 
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