where Judaism and Christianity agree

American Gothic

Well-known member
creation with its physical attributes is meant to be perishable unless an outside force influences it.
we see life as a progress in perfection. That's the ultimate goal, with knowledge of God reigning supreme.

so in Judaism "perfection" is, like..a Thing\\

"The law of the Lord is perfect" Psalm 19
"All that God has commanded we will do:" Exodus19
 

Jewjitzu

Well-known member
so in Judaism "perfection" is, like..a Thing\\
The goal.

"The law of the Lord is perfect" Psalm 19
Reviving the soul.

"All that God has commanded we will do:" Exodus19
It's the goal to strive for. Constantly. It's not a one-and-done thing.

Genesis 17:1
When Abram was ninety-nine years old, the LORD appeared to him and said, “I am God Almighty; walk before me faithfully and be blameless.

That is why it can be said:

Proverbs 24:16
For a righteous man falls seven times, and rises again, But the wicked stumble in time of disaster and collapse.
 
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American Gothic

Well-known member
Genesis 17:1
When Abram was ninety-nine years old, the LORD appeared to him and said, “I am God Almighty; walk before me faithfully and be blameless.
ו וְהֶאֱמִן, בַּיהוָה; וַיַּחְשְׁבֶהָ לּוֹ, צְדָקָה.6 And he believed in the LORD; and He counted it to him for righteousness.
Genesis 15
Proverbs 24:16
For a righteous man falls seven times, and rises again, But the wicked stumble in time of disaster and collapse.
ד הִנֵּה עֻפְּלָה, לֹא-יָשְׁרָה נַפְשׁוֹ בּוֹ; וְצַדִּיק, בֶּאֱמוּנָתוֹ יִחְיֶה. {ס}4 Behold, his soul is puffed up, it is not upright in him; but the righteous shall live by his faith. Habakkuk 2
 
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Jewjitzu

Well-known member
ו וְהֶאֱמִן, בַּיהוָה; וַיַּחְשְׁבֶהָ לּוֹ, צְדָקָה.6 And he believed in the LORD; and He counted it to him for righteousness.
Genesis 15

ד הִנֵּה עֻפְּלָה, לֹא-יָשְׁרָה נַפְשׁוֹ בּוֹ; וְצַדִּיק, בֶּאֱמוּנָתוֹ יִחְיֶה. {ס}4 Behold, his soul is puffed up, it is not upright in him; but the righteous shall live by his faith. Habakkuk 2
Yes. And how is that belief, faith, exemplified?

Genesis 18:19
For I have chosen him, so that he will command his children and his household after him to keep the way of the LORD by doing what is right and just, in order that the LORD may bring upon Abraham what He has promised.”

I believe the book of James 2 explains this to you in this way:

18But someone will say, “You have faith and I have deeds.” Show me your faith without deeds, and I will show you my faith by my deeds. 19You believe that God is one.g Good for you! Even the demons believe that—and shudder.

20O foolish man, do you want evidence that faith without deeds is worthless?h 21Was not our father Abraham justified by what he did when he offered his son Isaac on the altar? 22You see that his faith was working with his actions, and his faith was perfected by what he did. 23And the Scripture was fulfilled that says, “Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness,”i and he was called a friend of God.j 24As you can see, a man is justified by his deeds and not by faith alone.
 

American Gothic

Well-known member
how is that belief, faith, exemplified?
I believe the book of James 2 explains this to you in this way:
is a lack of service then a lack of faith? or just a lack of service?
is a "dead" faith...really no faith?

"For I have chosen him, so that he will..."

is it not on God to perfect those He has chosen to be His own? and to use them effectively for His purposes?
"He has perfected forever those who are being made Holy" Hebrew 10

if even a mustard seed worth is efficacious, is there really ever such a thing as a completely dead Faith? Matthew 17:20
 
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Jewjitzu

Well-known member
is a lack of service then a lack of faith? or just a lack of service?
is a "dead" faith...really no faith?
It's a lack of faith if there is no action.

The demons believe too, right?

"For I have chosen him, so that he will..."
God chose Abram because Abram chose God. Abram listened to God, Genesis 12.

is it not on God to perfect those He has chosen to be His own? and to use them effectively for His purposes?
God gave us the law to perfect us, Psalm 19:7.

"He has perfected forever those who are being made Holy" Hebrew 10
The law is given for this purpose. The law perfects and makes holy.

if even a mustard seed worth is efficacious, is there really ever such a thing as a completely dead Faith? Matthew 17:20
You have to plant the mustard seed ;)
 
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American Gothic

Well-known member
God gave us the law to perfect us, Psalm 19:7.
The law is given for this purpose. The law perfects and makes holy.
"The law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul;
The testimony of the Lord is sure, making wise the simple;"

liar coveter thief sexually immoral murderer...
"you sure are a sinner David,
My law and sent prophets explained that to you" - God


Did the Law perfect David?
or does God have to perfect David, to truly make him a man after God's own heart? Ezekiel 36:26

is not the testimony of the Lord, and the Law
that we are not God, nor His equal, nor could we ever be?
 
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Jewjitzu

Well-known member
"The law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul;
The testimony of the Lord is sure, making wise the simple;"

liar coveter thief sexually immoral murderer...
"you sure are a sinner David,
My law and sent prophets explained that to you" - God


Did the Law perfect David?
or does God have to perfect David, to truly make him a man after God's own heart? Ezekiel 36:26

is not the testimony of the Lord, and the Law
that we are not God, nor His equal, nor could we ever be?
Doesn't Tanakh say about David:

And as for you, if you walk before Me as your father David walked, with a heart of integrity and uprightness, doing all I have commanded you, and if you keep My statutes and ordinances...

You forget, the righteous fall 7 times, and get up. It's a process.
 

American Gothic

Well-known member
And as for you, if you walk before Me as your father David walked, with a heart of integrity and uprightness, doing all I have commanded you, and if you keep My statutes and ordinances...
You forget, the righteous fall 7 times, and get up. It's a process.
still sounds like it is God who does the Work in making someone righteous in His sight
because really they are not, and never can be
and that must first be understood

Psalm 51
"Blot out my transgressions.
Wash me thoroughly from my iniquity,
And cleanse me from my sin."

"For I acknowledge my transgressions, (only 7 transgressions? 70x7 transgressions? more?)
And my sin is always before me. (oooooh!)
Against You, You only, have I sinned,
And done this evil in Your sight—
That You may be found just when You speak,
And blameless when You judge."

"Behold, I was brought forth in iniquity,
And in sin my mother conceived me.
Behold, You desire truth in the inward parts,
And in the hidden part You will make me to know wisdom." (He understands he is a hopeless Sinner?)

"Wash me, and I shall be whiter than snow." (washed with the Law commands? lips? or is blood what God said would atone for the Soul?)

"Hide Your face from my sins, (remember them no more? like will be realized in the promises of the future?)
And blot out all my iniquities."

"Create in me a clean heart, O God,
And renew a steadfast spirit within me.
Do not cast me away from Your presence, (because that is what he actually deserves?)
And do not take Your Holy Spirit from me.
Restore to me the joy of Your salvation,
And uphold me by Your generous Spirit." (not David's spirit, or will, or doing?)
 
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Jewjitzu

Well-known member
still sounds like it is God who does the Work in making someone righteous in His sight
because really they are not, and never can be
and that must first be understood

Psalm 51
"Blot out my transgressions.
Wash me thoroughly from my iniquity,
And cleanse me from my sin."

"For I acknowledge my transgressions, (only 7 transgressions? 70x7 transgressions? more?)
And my sin is always before me. (oooooh!)
Against You, You only, have I sinned,
And done this evil in Your sight—
That You may be found just when You speak,
And blameless when You judge."

"Behold, I was brought forth in iniquity,
And in sin my mother conceived me.
Behold, You desire truth in the inward parts,
And in the hidden part You will make me to know wisdom." (He understands he is a hopeless Sinner?)

"Wash me, and I shall be whiter than snow." (washed with the Law commands? lips? or is blood what God said would atone for the Soul?)

"Hide Your face from my sins, (remember them no more? like will be realized in the promises of the future?)
And blot out all my iniquities."

"Create in me a clean heart, O God,
And renew a steadfast spirit within me.
Do not cast me away from Your presence, (because that is what he actually deserves?)
And do not take Your Holy Spirit from me.
Restore to me the joy of Your salvation,
And uphold me by Your generous Spirit." (not David's spirit, or will, or doing?)
No, he gives us His righteous laws. And when we follow it, that is our righteousness.
 
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