Which came first? Faith or the Spirit?

Our Lord's God

Well-known member
1. You will receive power when the Holy Spirit has come upon you Acts 1:8

Did these disciples believe before they had received the Spirit?


2. But this he spoke of the Spirit, whom those who believed in him were to receive. For the Spirit was not yet given, because Jesus was not yet glorified

Did they believe in him before they received the Spirit?


3. Repent, and each of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins; and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.
Acts 2:38

Were they expected to repent before they had received the Spirit?


4. But when they believed Philip preaching the good news about the kingdom of God and the name of Jesus Christ, they were being baptized, both men and women.... 14 Now when the apostles in Jerusalem heard that Samaria had received the word of God, they sent them Peter and John, 15 who came down and prayed for them that they might receive the Holy Spirit. 16 For the Spirit had not yet fallen upon any of them. They had simply been baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. Acts 8

Did the Samaritans believe before they had received the Spirit?


5. He said to them, “Did you receive the Holy Spirit when you believed?

Did Paul expect them to have received the Holy Spirit because they believed? Did they receive the Spirit after they believed or before?


6. Did you receive the Spirit by the works of the Law, or by believing what you heard? Galatians 3:2

Did the Galatians receive the Spirit as a result of believing what they heard?


7. ...the blessing of Abraham might come to the Gentiles, so that we would receive the promise of the Spirit through faith. Galatians 3:14

Did Paul say faith is received through the Spirit or that the Spirit is received through faith? So which came first?


Did any of the above believe/repent because they first had the Spirit, OR did they receive the Spirit after they believed?
 
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civic

Well-known member
Colossians 2:13
When you were dead in your sins and in the uncircumcision of your sinful nature, God made you alive with Christ.

Ephesians 2:4-5
But because of his great love for us, God, who is rich in mercy, 5 made us alive with Christ even when we were dead in transgressions

Titus 3:5-8
He saved us, not on the basis of deeds which we have done in righteousness, but according to His mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewing by the Holy Spirit, 6 whom He poured out upon us richly through Jesus Christ our Savior, 7 so that being justified by His grace we would be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life.

John 1:13
children born not of natural descent, nor of human decision or a husband's will, but born of God.

hope this helps !!!
 

Our Lord's God

Well-known member
Colossians 2:13
When you were dead in your sins and in the uncircumcision of your sinful nature, God made you alive with Christ.

Ephesians 2:4-5
But because of his great love for us, God, who is rich in mercy, 5 made us alive with Christ even when we were dead in transgressions

Titus 3:5-8
He saved us, not on the basis of deeds which we have done in righteousness, but according to His mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewing by the Holy Spirit, 6 whom He poured out upon us richly through Jesus Christ our Savior, 7 so that being justified by His grace we would be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life.

John 1:13
children born not of natural descent, nor of human decision or a husband's will, but born of God.

hope this helps !!!

Were you hoping these verses would nullify the verses in the OP? You were, weren't you?
 

TomFL

Well-known member
1. You will receive power when the Holy Spirit has come upon you Acts 1:8

Did these disciples believe before they had received the Spirit?


2. But this he spoke of the Spirit, whom those who believed in him were to receive. For the Spirit was not yet given, because Jesus was not yet glorified

Did they believe in him before they received the Spirit?


3. Repent, and each of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins; and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.
Acts 2:38

Were they expected to repent before they had received the Spirit?


4. But when they believed Philip preaching the good news about the kingdom of God and the name of Jesus Christ, they were being baptized, both men and women.... 14 Now when the apostles in Jerusalem heard that Samaria had received the word of God, they sent them Peter and John, 15 who came down and prayed for them that they might receive the Holy Spirit. 16 For the Spirit had not yet fallen upon any of them. They had simply been baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. Acts 8

Did the Samaritans believe before they had received the Spirit?


5. He said to them, “Did you receive the Holy Spirit when you believed?

Did Paul expect them to have received the Holy Spirit because they believed? Did they receive the Spirit after they believed or before?


6. Did you receive the Spirit by the works of the Law, or by believing what you heard? Galatians 3:2

Did the Galatians receive the Spirit as a result of believing what they heard?


7. ...the blessing of Abraham might come to the Gentiles, so that we would receive the promise of the Spirit through faith. Galatians 3:14

Did Paul say faith is received through the Spirit or that the Spirit is received through faith? So which came first?


Did any of the above believe/repent because they first had the Spirit, OR did they receive the Spirit after they believed?
Faith/faith comes before regeneration

Regeneration is new life a spiritual resurrections and a purification

Ezekiel 18:30-32

“Therefore, you Israelites, I will judge each of you according to your own ways, declares the Sovereign LORD. Repent! Turn away from all your offenses; then sin will not be your downfall. Rid yourselves of all the offenses you have committed, and get a new heart and a new spirit. Why will you die, people of Israel? For I take no pleasure in the death of anyone, declares the Sovereign LORD. Repent and live!”

The order clearly laid out is as follows:

“Repent, Turn away…Rid yourselves…”
“…get a new heart and a new spirit.”
Verse 32 makes it even more simple:

“Repent and…”
“…live!”
Life comes from repentance, not the other way around.


Acts 11:18

When they heard this, they had no further objections and praised God, saying, “So then, God has granted even the Gentiles repentance unto life.”

The order clearly laid out is as follows:

“Repentance unto…”
“…life”
The Gentiles were not granted life unto repentance, but just the opposite according to the text. And the gospel is the means God grants mankind the ability to believe. He sent the gospel first to the Jews and then the Gentiles which enabled their faith response (Rom. 1:16, 10:14-17).


John 5:40

“yet you refuse to COME TO ME TO HAVE LIFE.”

The order clearly laid out is as follows:

“Come to me…” (through faith)
“…to have life.”


John 6:53

“I tell you the truth, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you have no life in you.”

The order clearly laid out is as follows:

“Unless you eat…drink” (by faith)
“…you have not life in you.”


John 6:57

“so the one who feeds on me will live because of me.”

The order clearly laid out is as follows:

“the one who feeds on me…” (by faith)
“…will live”


John 20:31

“But these are written that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that by believing you may have life in his name.”

The order clearly laid out is as follows:

“these are written…” (scriptures)
“…that you may believe…”
“…by believing you may have life…”
Life clearly is a fruit of faith and repentance, not the other way around.


Acts 15:9

“He made no distinction between us and them, for he purified their hearts by faith.”

The order clearly laid out is as follows:

“He purified their hearts…”
“…by faith.”
It does not say He purified their hearts by regeneration so as to make them have faith. Clearly a purified heart is a fruit of faith, not the other way around.



1 Timothy 1:16

“But for that very reason I was shown mercy so that in me, the worst of sinners, Christ Jesus might display his immense patience as an example for those who would believe in him and receive eternal life.”

The order clearly laid out is as follows:

“…those who would believe in him…”
“…may receive eternal life.”


Colossians 2:12

“…having been buried with him in baptism, in which you were also raised with him through your faith in the working of God, who raised him from the dead.”

The order clearly laid out is as follows:

“…baptism, in which you were also raised…”
“…through your faith…”


James 1:18

“He chose to give us birth through the word of truth, that we might be a kind of firstfruits of all he created.”

The order clearly laid out is as follows:

“…give us brith…”
“…through the word of truth…”

LWF
 
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civic

Well-known member
Were you hoping these verses would nullify the verses in the OP? You were, weren't you?
what part of being dead are you having trouble understanding ?

what part of being made alive by God when you were dead are you having trouble understanding ?

what part of faith being absent from those texts are you having trouble understanding about being made alive when you were dead ?

hope this helps !!!
 

Our Lord's God

Well-known member
what part of being dead are you having trouble understanding ?

what part of being made alive by God when you were dead are you having trouble understanding ?

what part of faith being absent from those texts are you having trouble understanding about being made alive when you were dead ?

hope this helps !!!

So then you can't muster a response to the questions in the OP.
 

TomFL

Well-known member
Saying it a million times doesn't make it true.

And quoting passages which don't even MENTION "regeneration" don't help you.
We have been through this before

The evidence shows regeneration is new life

You were clearly shown this

from Calvinist theologies

Lexicons

bible dictionaries

so much so you objected to the number of ops defining regeneration

so any verse which places faith before life places faith before regeneration

you complaint is too little too late

Regeneration is new life a spiritual resurrections and a purification

Ezekiel 18:30-32

“Therefore, you Israelites, I will judge each of you according to your own ways, declares the Sovereign LORD. Repent! Turn away from all your offenses; then sin will not be your downfall. Rid yourselves of all the offenses you have committed, and get a new heart and a new spirit. Why will you die, people of Israel? For I take no pleasure in the death of anyone, declares the Sovereign LORD. Repent and live!”

The order clearly laid out is as follows:

“Repent, Turn away…Rid yourselves…”
“…get a new heart and a new spirit.”
Verse 32 makes it even more simple:

“Repent and…”
“…live!”
Life comes from repentance, not the other way around.


Acts 11:18

When they heard this, they had no further objections and praised God, saying, “So then, God has granted even the Gentiles repentance unto life.”

The order clearly laid out is as follows:

“Repentance unto…”
“…life”
The Gentiles were not granted life unto repentance, but just the opposite according to the text. And the gospel is the means God grants mankind the ability to believe. He sent the gospel first to the Jews and then the Gentiles which enabled their faith response (Rom. 1:16, 10:14-17).


John 5:40

“yet you refuse to COME TO ME TO HAVE LIFE.”

The order clearly laid out is as follows:

“Come to me…” (through faith)
“…to have life.”


John 6:53

“I tell you the truth, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you have no life in you.”

The order clearly laid out is as follows:

“Unless you eat…drink” (by faith)
“…you have not life in you.”


John 6:57

“so the one who feeds on me will live because of me.”

The order clearly laid out is as follows:

“the one who feeds on me…” (by faith)
“…will live”


John 20:31

“But these are written that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that by believing you may have life in his name.”

The order clearly laid out is as follows:

“these are written…” (scriptures)
“…that you may believe…”
“…by believing you may have life…”
Life clearly is a fruit of faith and repentance, not the other way around.


Acts 15:9

“He made no distinction between us and them, for he purified their hearts by faith.”

The order clearly laid out is as follows:

“He purified their hearts…”
“…by faith.”
It does not say He purified their hearts by regeneration so as to make them have faith. Clearly a purified heart is a fruit of faith, not the other way around.



1 Timothy 1:16

“But for that very reason I was shown mercy so that in me, the worst of sinners, Christ Jesus might display his immense patience as an example for those who would believe in him and receive eternal life.”

The order clearly laid out is as follows:

“…those who would believe in him…”
“…may receive eternal life.”


Colossians 2:12

“…having been buried with him in baptism, in which you were also raised with him through your faith in the working of God, who raised him from the dead.”

The order clearly laid out is as follows:

“…baptism, in which you were also raised…”
“…through your faith…”


James 1:18

“He chose to give us birth through the word of truth, that we might be a kind of firstfruits of all he created.”

The order clearly laid out is as follows:

“…give us brith…”
“…through the word of truth…”


BTW this all mention regeneration

James 1:18 Of his own will begat he us with the word of truth, that we should be a kind of firstfruits of his creatures.


1Pet. 1:18 Forasmuch as ye know that ye were not redeemed with corruptible things, as silver and gold, from your vain conversation received by tradition from your fathers;
1Pet. 1:19 But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot:
1Pet. 1:20 Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you,
1Pet. 1:21 Who by him do believe in God, that raised him up from the dead, and gave him glory; that your faith and hope might be in God.
1Pet. 1:22 Seeing ye have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit unto unfeigned love of the brethren, see that ye love one another with a pure heart fervently:
1Pet. 1:23 Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.
1Cor. 4:15 For though ye have ten thousand instructors in Christ, yet have ye not many fathers: for in Christ Jesus I have begotten you through the gospel.

and of course we must believe as the gospel does not profit

Heb. 4:2 —KJV
“For unto us was the gospel preached, as well as unto them: but the word preached did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in them that heard it.”
 
Last edited:

civic

Well-known member
Were you hoping these verses would nullify the verses in the OP? You were, weren't you?
Its time for you to answer a couple of questions. You are not the self appointed interrogator of the forum. Its a discussion not an inquisition.

what part of being dead are you having trouble understanding ?

what part of being made alive by God when you were dead are you having trouble understanding ?

what part of faith being absent from those texts are you having trouble understanding about being made alive when you were dead ?

hope this helps !!!
 

TomFL

Well-known member
Yes we have.
But you keep posting your error.
So I have to keep correcting you.
You are in denial

You post no proof of error

Calvinist theologies Lexicons and bible dictionaries all proved that regeneration is new life

and many verses show you must have faith before you receive life

So you have been clearly refuted and just refuse to accept truth

Regeneration is new life a spiritual resurrections and a purification

Ezekiel 18:30-32

“Therefore, you Israelites, I will judge each of you according to your own ways, declares the Sovereign LORD. Repent! Turn away from all your offenses; then sin will not be your downfall. Rid yourselves of all the offenses you have committed, and get a new heart and a new spirit. Why will you die, people of Israel? For I take no pleasure in the death of anyone, declares the Sovereign LORD. Repent and live!”

The order clearly laid out is as follows:

“Repent, Turn away…Rid yourselves…”
“…get a new heart and a new spirit.”
Verse 32 makes it even more simple:

“Repent and…”
“…live!”
Life comes from repentance, not the other way around.


Acts 11:18

When they heard this, they had no further objections and praised God, saying, “So then, God has granted even the Gentiles repentance unto life.”

The order clearly laid out is as follows:

“Repentance unto…”
“…life”
The Gentiles were not granted life unto repentance, but just the opposite according to the text. And the gospel is the means God grants mankind the ability to believe. He sent the gospel first to the Jews and then the Gentiles which enabled their faith response (Rom. 1:16, 10:14-17).


John 5:40

“yet you refuse to COME TO ME TO HAVE LIFE.”

The order clearly laid out is as follows:

“Come to me…” (through faith)
“…to have life.”


John 6:53

“I tell you the truth, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you have no life in you.”

The order clearly laid out is as follows:

“Unless you eat…drink” (by faith)
“…you have not life in you.”


John 6:57

“so the one who feeds on me will live because of me.”

The order clearly laid out is as follows:

“the one who feeds on me…” (by faith)
“…will live”


John 20:31

“But these are written that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that by believing you may have life in his name.”

The order clearly laid out is as follows:

“these are written…” (scriptures)
“…that you may believe…”
“…by believing you may have life…”
Life clearly is a fruit of faith and repentance, not the other way around.


Acts 15:9

“He made no distinction between us and them, for he purified their hearts by faith.”

The order clearly laid out is as follows:

“He purified their hearts…”
“…by faith.”
It does not say He purified their hearts by regeneration so as to make them have faith. Clearly a purified heart is a fruit of faith, not the other way around.



1 Timothy 1:16

“But for that very reason I was shown mercy so that in me, the worst of sinners, Christ Jesus might display his immense patience as an example for those who would believe in him and receive eternal life.”

The order clearly laid out is as follows:

“…those who would believe in him…”
“…may receive eternal life.”


Colossians 2:12

“…having been buried with him in baptism, in which you were also raised with him through your faith in the working of God, who raised him from the dead.”

The order clearly laid out is as follows:

“…baptism, in which you were also raised…”
“…through your faith…”


James 1:18

“He chose to give us birth through the word of truth, that we might be a kind of firstfruits of all he created.”

The order clearly laid out is as follows:

“…give us brith…”
“…through the word of truth…”



BTW all these mention faith


James 1:18 Of his own will begat he us with the word of truth, that we should be a kind of firstfruits of his creatures.


1Pet. 1:18 Forasmuch as ye know that ye were not redeemed with corruptible things, as silver and gold, from your vain conversation received by tradition from your fathers;
1Pet. 1:19 But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot:
1Pet. 1:20 Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you,
1Pet. 1:21 Who by him do believe in God, that raised him up from the dead, and gave him glory; that your faith and hope might be in God.
1Pet. 1:22 Seeing ye have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit unto unfeigned love of the brethren, see that ye love one another with a pure heart fervently:
1Pet. 1:23 Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.
1Cor. 4:15 For though ye have ten thousand instructors in Christ, yet have ye not many fathers: for in Christ Jesus I have begotten you through the gospel.

and of course we must believe as the gospel does not profit

Heb. 4:2 —KJV
“For unto us was the gospel preached, as well as unto them: but the word preached did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in them that heard it.”
 

Theo1689

Well-known member
You are in denial

Yes, you insult me like that every time you're a sore loser.

You post no proof of error

Calvinist theologies Lexicons and bible dictionaries all proved that regeneration is new life

Yeah, right... That's why they use DIFFERENT terms, right?
That's why NO TRANSLATION uses "regeneration" in those particular verses, right?

and those verses show you must gave fauth before you receive life

I don't know what "fauth" is.
But the Bible is clear that "regeneration" comes BEFORE faith, and eternal life comes AFTER faith, so they can't possibly refer to the same thing, no matter how many times you try to twist Scripture.

So you have been clearly refuted and just refuse to accept truth

You are not God.
You have no authority to proclaim who's "right" or "wrong".
Kindly get over yourself.
 

Our Lord's God

Well-known member
Yes, you insult me like that every time you're a sore loser.



Yeah, right... That's why they use DIFFERENT terms, right?
That's why NO TRANSLATION uses "regeneration" in those particular verses, right?



I don't know what "fauth" is.
But the Bible is clear that "regeneration" comes BEFORE faith, and eternal life comes AFTER faith, so they can't possibly refer to the same thing, no matter how many times you try to twist Scripture.



You are not God.
You have no authority to proclaim who's "right" or "wrong".
Kindly get over yourself.

Please address the questions in the OP.
 

TomFL

Well-known member
Yes, you insult me like that every time you're a sore loser.

That was not an insult but a fact

It was overwhelmingly shown regeneration is new life

The theological loser here is you who offer only denial


Yeah, right... That's why they use DIFFERENT terms, right?
That's why NO TRANSLATION uses "regeneration" in those particular verses, right?

Life

What don't you understand ?

regeneration is new life

New life is preceded by faith

regeneration is therefore preceded by faith

You are offering only denial

Regeneration is new life a spiritual resurrections and a purification

Ezekiel 18:30-32

“Therefore, you Israelites, I will judge each of you according to your own ways, declares the Sovereign LORD. Repent! Turn away from all your offenses; then sin will not be your downfall. Rid yourselves of all the offenses you have committed, and get a new heart and a new spirit. Why will you die, people of Israel? For I take no pleasure in the death of anyone, declares the Sovereign LORD. Repent and live!”

The order clearly laid out is as follows:

“Repent, Turn away…Rid yourselves…”
“…get a new heart and a new spirit.”
Verse 32 makes it even more simple:

“Repent and…”
“…live!”
Life comes from repentance, not the other way around.


Acts 11:18

When they heard this, they had no further objections and praised God, saying, “So then, God has granted even the Gentiles repentance unto life.”

The order clearly laid out is as follows:

“Repentance unto…”
“…life”
The Gentiles were not granted life unto repentance, but just the opposite according to the text. And the gospel is the means God grants mankind the ability to believe. He sent the gospel first to the Jews and then the Gentiles which enabled their faith response (Rom. 1:16, 10:14-17).


John 5:40

“yet you refuse to COME TO ME TO HAVE LIFE.”

The order clearly laid out is as follows:

“Come to me…” (through faith)
“…to have life.”


John 6:53

“I tell you the truth, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you have no life in you.”

The order clearly laid out is as follows:

“Unless you eat…drink” (by faith)
“…you have not life in you.”


John 6:57

“so the one who feeds on me will live because of me.”

The order clearly laid out is as follows:

“the one who feeds on me…” (by faith)
“…will live”


John 20:31

“But these are written that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that by believing you may have life in his name.”

The order clearly laid out is as follows:

“these are written…” (scriptures)
“…that you may believe…”
“…by believing you may have life…”
Life clearly is a fruit of faith and repentance, not the other way around.


Acts 15:9

“He made no distinction between us and them, for he purified their hearts by faith.”

The order clearly laid out is as follows:

“He purified their hearts…”
“…by faith.”
It does not say He purified their hearts by regeneration so as to make them have faith. Clearly a purified heart is a fruit of faith, not the other way around.



1 Timothy 1:16

“But for that very reason I was shown mercy so that in me, the worst of sinners, Christ Jesus might display his immense patience as an example for those who would believe in him and receive eternal life.”

The order clearly laid out is as follows:

“…those who would believe in him…”
“…may receive eternal life.”


Colossians 2:12

“…having been buried with him in baptism, in which you were also raised with him through your faith in the working of God, who raised him from the dead.”

The order clearly laid out is as follows:

“…baptism, in which you were also raised…”
“…through your faith…”


James 1:18

“He chose to give us birth through the word of truth, that we might be a kind of firstfruits of all he created.”

The order clearly laid out is as follows:

“…give us brith…”
“…through the word of truth…”

you ignored this as well


BTW all these mention faith


James 1:18 Of his own will begat he us with the word of truth, that we should be a kind of firstfruits of his creatures.


1Pet. 1:18 Forasmuch as ye know that ye were not redeemed with corruptible things, as silver and gold, from your vain conversation received by tradition from your fathers;
1Pet. 1:19 But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot:
1Pet. 1:20 Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you,
1Pet. 1:21 Who by him do believe in God, that raised him up from the dead, and gave him glory; that your faith and hope might be in God.
1Pet. 1:22 Seeing ye have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit unto unfeigned love of the brethren, see that ye love one another with a pure heart fervently:
1Pet. 1:23 Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.
1Cor. 4:15 For though ye have ten thousand instructors in Christ, yet have ye not many fathers: for in Christ Jesus I have begotten you through the gospel.

and of course we must believe as the gospel does not profit

Heb. 4:2 —KJV
“For unto us was the gospel preached, as well as unto them: but the word preached did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in them that heard it.”
 

ReverendRV

Well-known member
No you know I am not
You can't be him; but it looks like a signature...

If you were Leighton Flowers, I would say that since God's Grace prevened his Free Will, Grace affected his Nature like cocking the gun so his Will could pull the trigger...

God's Grace always has an Effect before the Will; let's just call the effect Regeneration...
 
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